Abbylad

iTrader: (4)

did you fit a bigger fuel pump and pressure regulator? might help bring your injector duty down

edited to add a p.s. - i`ve just had my gruppe-s headers fitted (was a bitch, but it seems not as much a bitch as yours) and am off to see my guru for a re-re-map (2nd one)on wednesday, and then its off to well lane a week on sunday, i`ll let you know how it goes if u want
MY99 uk turbo
sti 5/6 intercooler
samco`s
full de-cat and gruppe-s headers
ggr induction kit with cold air feed
uprated plugs and leads
walbro fuel pump and fpr (set @ 3.4bar)
TEK 3
and a possible goosed MAF (will find out on wednesday)

[Edited by Abbylad - 9/5/2003 11:59:47 PM]

Apple

Ed,

the undertray is there mainly for the drive-by noise regs and maybe to maintain an under-bonnet temperature but you'll probably just notice your engine bay getting mucky / rustier quicker with road sh*te and salt...

[Edited by Apple - 9/6/2003 12:58:37 AM]

Andy.F

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as JB stated, anything over 100% IDC means the injectors are open for 720 degrees of rotation per cycle ie continuous. 124% still means only 100%, it's just like your fuel gauge going over the 'F' mark, it's still just full
Therefore at high duty cycles, the injectors spend the majority of their time spraying on the back of the closed inlet valve.
This is not a problem, they are even designed to run this way at low rpm/high vacuum in order to improve atomisation as the fuel quickly vapourises on the back of the relatively hot valve.

Andy

[Edited by Andy.F - 9/7/2003 7:35:47 PM]

Edcase

The graph is here

I'm just about to go out and drown my sorrows, will post more later.

Basically, this is maxing out the IDC (injector duration) at this level. Running 104%. There was a little left in reserve but he didnt want to risk it. I think also the tdo4 just doesnt have the grunt to suck up the extra air in the headers and then fill the larger intercooler.

The journey back was mostly m-way, but certainly never found myself looking for 6th gear.

Headers sound awesome. Still has the flat 4 regardless of equal length. I went through heathrow tunnel after taking a wrong turn off the m4 j4, and it really did sound just indescribable

But - and a big but - the fit was a nightmare, and cost me almost an extra £200 in labour as they had to rework the flanges to make them fit. They also run v. close to sump and crossmember. Maybe I got a dicky set, who knows. Either way, no longer a bargain, and if anything probably robbing me of performance.

*sigh*

Edcase

Forgot to say, maxing out the standard injectors on standard turbo at 277 I find hard to believe!

beamer

Off for a beer now then Ed

fuz

johnfelstead

Ed, those headers are not equal length, just look how the pipe lengths are much shorter on the turbo side, hence the burble is still present.

Can you expand a bit on the fitting problems and cures?

Sorry to hear its not gone as you hoped.

Edcase

John - I got the OBX headers not the gruppe-s ones. I measured them when I was lagging and defo equal length. They basically had to machine the contact surfaces as they were at an angle to the block

I also had the fuel pump upgrade done at the same time.

I guess the positive way to look at it is that I now just need turbo and injectors to jump easily to 350+ and a substantial torque figure once the headers are working optimally, but I cant help but be slightly dissapointed.

To be fair the majority of the trip home was the M4, and I had a quick play on a network of roundabouts near me when I got back, but I was almost out of fuel and had a scary moment of fuel starvation coming off a roundabout, so i guess the real test will be silverstone on sunday, and then the ring next week.

John are you going to be at the ring?

Edcase

Also, they were unable to refit the undertray, is that a problem?

Edcase

Yeah I guessed as much. A little worried by how close the headers run to the sump. I have lagged them thoroughly, but noticed the oil temp running at close to 100 on the way home whereas usually runs 90-95ish. I guess the first trackday will be telling...

johnfelstead

Looking unlikely i'll be at the ring now, i am having a few problems with my rebuilt engine detting under load, and have to find out why before i can even think about driving it quickly.

Taking another look at it on monday, but it doesnt look promising time wise.

You should run colder oil temps with the undertray off, mine runs 5 degrees cooler, so if its now 10 degrees higher the headers must be putting some heat out. where is your oil temp sender unit?

Edcase

John - shame I was looking forward to some passenger laps

Mine is a 2002 car, so the sender is above cylinder 3, on the top of the block.

johnfelstead

doesnt matter what year the car is, the engine oilway location is the same. Some put them in the sump, which is why i asked.

Miracles may happen and i'll get the engine running OK, you never know!

Edcase

Fingers x'd.

Edcase

Forgot to mention engine spec:

2002 wrx
13k
Fully synthetic engine / g/box
APS TMIC
TSL grp A decat d/pipe
TSL grp N decat centre / rear
OBX equal headers
OBX decat uppipe
Green panel filter
Ecutek remap
FSE fuel pump

Edcase

So.....what turbo then?

I guess its tdo5 or vf34?

EMS

Ed,

It´s easy to max out the injectors on a new age WRX! I don´t know the manifold you have, but the WRX´s I´ve done with a (Supersprint) manifold, I could run a bit more boost with STi injectors. However not a big difference as the TD04 is holding you back.

Mark.

mutant_matt

Sorry to hear that Ed (and John )! Aren't the WRX IJs still 440s as opposed to the STi's 565s?

Ed, this was done at PE right? Did you speak to Merv (I presume he did the mapping)? Did you not express your dissapointment/surprise? What did he say? Perhaps the weather and the fact that there may be some learning to come on the ECU make a difference?

We can do some DeltaDash logs at the Ring if you like to have another look what's going on after some miles have been put on it!

Matt

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

I have to say, if those headers you posted in the link are the ones you have, then they are NOT the same as my OBX headers!!

Since fitting the headers, and removing the undertray my oil temps run about 5 degrees cooler. On cruising 80-85 they run at about 87 degrees.

Very puzzled about the headers.

Suspect TD04 is limiting you greatly now.

Also think you could do with an uprated regulator IMO.

Steven

nellie

Ed, i thought the headers we were getting had a flexi up-pipe,are you sure these arnt the ones that the other thread were on about? as you got yours from somewhere else? still OBX though,and that guy was on about the fact they were murder to fit because of no flexi up-pipe........

Edcase

Steven - which link? They are defo the same as yours, as I saw yours on the wrapping link you sent me and they are exactly the same.

Nath - could be. They do sit low / close and were a bugger to fit.

Matt - Someone even said they may be less than that! Merv basically said with the IDC's at 104 they couldnt / wouldnt risk more boost. It was fairly high ambient temps. Have to say its feeling slightly quicker today. Tomorrow will be real test.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Ed, the link in your first post, the next picture is a set of headers which look like the grouppe s ones, not the OBX ones.

Honestly, i had no problems fitting them! Very surprised.

When they mapped the car, are you saying they were not certain which injectors were on there! WTF

440's have fueled a car i know of running approx 350 with low to mid 90 IDC's, with an uprated pump and fuel reg.

What boost were you running?

Steven

Edcase

On fotopic? Ah yeah they are gruppe-s. that photo is from ages ago, I can assure you the ones I fitted were same as yours.

I believe the standard 2002 wrx runs injectors in the 300's, not sure precisely.

The car is now mapped to 1.2 bar. They did the uprated pump, but no mention of pressure regulator on job sheet.

Couple of q's. Is it a straigh swap to fit 550's to my car or do I need to modify the fuel rail? How big a job to change them? What are the upper limits of the VF34. How much lag on a front entry td05.

cheers as always

Ed

tweenierob

Not being funny...
But something does not seem right here?? i will try and make this as non bias as i can as i have no time for PE..

104% IDC's.. 'left some in reserve' can someone explain this to me, i honestly dont understand this? firstly 100% would mean that the injectors are open 100% of the time y/n? so how does 104% work? I doubt very much that Merv would map a car with such high duty cycles.. I Am not saying that i know how Merv maps cars but after having a Chip from him and him saying he would not map over 90% IDC??? Think someone may be lying to Ed?
You are using a TD04.. Not the most powerful turbo in the world BUT i personally would expect slightly better results even with this turbo given your mods and 1.2bar...

Have just read the whole thread again...
If anyone from PE reads this and doesnt like what i type.. Mail me..
I honestly believe that someone is feeding you bullsh!t Ed, did you see them carrying out the machining work on the headers?
Did they have a set of headers you could buy instead??

PE are known not to like fitting other peoples stuff, and if they cant make the money on the parts.... say no more

Did you say to Merv why such low power given the mods??

Did Merv check fuel pressure was OK??

What were his thoughts on the power/torque?

Hmmmmm...

Rob

tweenierob

IIRC the 503cc STI inj are a straight swap
Changing Injectors is not very hard if you have a little mechanical knowhow/knowlege..
You will find the TD05 laggier than your TD04 but it will give much better gains.
I have no idea about the VF34...

Rob

p.s. i am sure your injectors are 440's which makes it easier to believe that Merv deffo told you a load of bollox..

RB5SCOTT

My best results on a tek 3 with standard injectors and a TD04 was 299bhp with 292lb/ft???

Scott

T-uk

is it not possible ed has picked up PE wrongly?

I would say that the chances are the car is running 84% idc and would be surprised if most commercial mappers would be happy going over 86% idc , unless the owner accepted full responsibility.

Edcase

Rob - always a tricky one, and I try not to be too judgemental because its hard to ever know you are right. I have to say though I was a bit annoyed they didnt call me to say 'the headers arent fitting we will need to machine them, do you want to continue?' cos I likely would have said 'no'.

Regarding the mapping, I know several people running 1.28bar happily, and like i said, several with 290/290ish that are not maxing their duty cycles. And without the fuel pump upgrade! Thats the bit that confuses me. And why didnt they mention upgrading fuel pressure regulator?

Nathan L

Ed

I know some people have had fantastic results from PE but I never liked the idea of my car being mapped on a rolling road.

How many times did they run your car before you got 277 and how long had she been on the rollers ?

As I've said before if you want to get a bunch of TEK3 guys/gals together to see what we all run on the same day then i'm sure people would oblige.

As you know I had 275bhp last year on decat and PPP alone. You should be running far more than 277 IMHO.

Nathan..