next steps towards 400-420 bhp
07 March 2003, 04:29 PM
#1
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Adam
To allow meaningfull comparisons can you tell us at what acceleration rate the quoted figures are at ?
Andy
Marcin - You have mail
[Edited by Andy.F - 7/3/2003 4:30:17 PM]
To allow meaningfull comparisons can you tell us at what acceleration rate the quoted figures are at ?
Andy
Marcin - You have mail
[Edited by Andy.F - 7/3/2003 4:30:17 PM]
07 March 2003, 05:41 PM
#2
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Paul, you know what I mean, stop stirring it 
Adam - The method you mention is similar to quoting boost figures achieved by holding the car back on the brakes to allow boost time to build. This is different from the result if the engine is accelerating as it would be in the car.
During acceleration conditions the boost rise will be later and hence the torque and power curves will have a different profile ie less and later in the rpm range.
Exactly how much 'less and later' will be mainly a function of the turbo rotor inertia.
Some dynos can simulate an acceleration run (like a rolling road) which gives some indication of the available torque for in gear acceleration.
Not trying to p1ss on your bonfire but just be wary of going even bigger on a turbo until you have actually driven it to judge the response time, particularly in lower gears !
Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 7/3/2003 5:43:24 PM]
all i know is that the guy chooses an rpm point to map, then feeds in the throttle to allow the car to get there and overshoot, he then increases the resistance of the water until the revs "stabilise" at the desired speed.
During acceleration conditions the boost rise will be later and hence the torque and power curves will have a different profile ie less and later in the rpm range.
Exactly how much 'less and later' will be mainly a function of the turbo rotor inertia.
Some dynos can simulate an acceleration run (like a rolling road) which gives some indication of the available torque for in gear acceleration.
Not trying to p1ss on your bonfire but just be wary of going even bigger on a turbo until you have actually driven it to judge the response time, particularly in lower gears !
Andy
[Edited by Andy.F - 7/3/2003 5:43:24 PM]
07 March 2003, 11:30 PM
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just re read your post, and to answer a few points.
Know what you mean about being lucky.
It hasnt been opened yet, so obviously there is always a chance things could be worse. Fingers crossed.
What happened was that the water system was immadiately pressurised by the combustion chamber as a result of it cracking though to the water jacket.
With the pipe being blown off the dyno, this was immediately visible and the engine was cut instantly. On the road I would not have noticed and could have had water in the oil or vice versa and then goodbye internals
The engine was still making power when it was killed.
More importantly, it has been cranked manually and still has very good oil pressure and turns freely. An endoscope was the only way of seeing the damage to the block.
The oil was drained and is as clean as when it was put in, especially nice, since it was the running in oil and is an indicator of the health of the engine.
All in all I am hopeful, but I have learned in the past not to count my chickens before they have hatched.
As I said before, fingers crossed.
I will say it won't be anywhere near as long before it is back to running again and will be run again on the dyno to run it in and go over the map, hopefully this time, running with some more tweaks and the benefit of a little more experimentation to perfect a few things.
edited to sort out my abismal typing!!!
[Edited by Adam M - 7/3/2003 11:50:37 PM]
Know what you mean about being lucky.
It hasnt been opened yet, so obviously there is always a chance things could be worse. Fingers crossed.
What happened was that the water system was immadiately pressurised by the combustion chamber as a result of it cracking though to the water jacket.
With the pipe being blown off the dyno, this was immediately visible and the engine was cut instantly. On the road I would not have noticed and could have had water in the oil or vice versa and then goodbye internals
The engine was still making power when it was killed.
More importantly, it has been cranked manually and still has very good oil pressure and turns freely. An endoscope was the only way of seeing the damage to the block.
The oil was drained and is as clean as when it was put in, especially nice, since it was the running in oil and is an indicator of the health of the engine.
All in all I am hopeful, but I have learned in the past not to count my chickens before they have hatched.
As I said before, fingers crossed.
I will say it won't be anywhere near as long before it is back to running again and will be run again on the dyno to run it in and go over the map, hopefully this time, running with some more tweaks and the benefit of a little more experimentation to perfect a few things.
edited to sort out my abismal typing!!!
[Edited by Adam M - 7/3/2003 11:50:37 PM]
30 June 2003, 01:46 PM
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Hello from Poland,
After having an engine rebuilt I finally managed to take part in the large 1/4 mile event last weekend. My gt'99 managed 12.92 ET, but there was another impreza which was half a second quicker.
My current spec is:
2.0L 8.4 CR engine with omega pistons and STi conrods, 440ccm injectors
IHI VF-34 turbo (1.2 - 1.4 - 1.3 bar)
Greddy FMIC
Gruppe-S headers
2.5" supersprint free flow turbo back exhaust
AP Organic Clutch
Uprated fuel pump
Autronic ECU
I was running on street tires.
The other impreza had the same turbo (at 1.55 bar), MRT top mount IC, and 2.2 liter engine (Australian stroker). They ran it on slicks, 3" exhaust and no silencer at all.
What in your opinion makes bigger difference - tyres or displacement?
Now, I have to think about some next steps solution.
On July 19th we have the next round and I want to go faster :-))
First steps I am thinking of will be STi injectors, 3" exhaust,
slicks and a new mapping - I will have launch control (starting with 0.5 bar) and I am thinking of higher pressure in the mid-range. Do you have any other options or suggestions? Also looking for the injectors.
On September 20th we have the championship - I am considering getting a new turbo and I am thinking of various options. The car is not purely for 1/4 mile, I also use it for amateur rallies, so Garret big turbo with no action below 4krpm is not an option . I need something that spools up quickly and is capable
of running 400-420 bhp. Maybe T3/T4:
http://innovativeturbo.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00105.5.974790051411648171
Maybe something from APS? Some other interesting suggestions?
I can only pray that the box makes it. I am planning to buy a Lateralperformance kit, but not before the end of the year (budget limitations :-)
Do you think an STi 6 speed box is a good replacement solution?
Thanks for any advice.
Marcin
After having an engine rebuilt I finally managed to take part in the large 1/4 mile event last weekend. My gt'99 managed 12.92 ET, but there was another impreza which was half a second quicker.
My current spec is:
2.0L 8.4 CR engine with omega pistons and STi conrods, 440ccm injectors
IHI VF-34 turbo (1.2 - 1.4 - 1.3 bar)
Greddy FMIC
Gruppe-S headers
2.5" supersprint free flow turbo back exhaust
AP Organic Clutch
Uprated fuel pump
Autronic ECU
I was running on street tires.
The other impreza had the same turbo (at 1.55 bar), MRT top mount IC, and 2.2 liter engine (Australian stroker). They ran it on slicks, 3" exhaust and no silencer at all.
What in your opinion makes bigger difference - tyres or displacement?
Now, I have to think about some next steps solution.
On July 19th we have the next round and I want to go faster :-))
First steps I am thinking of will be STi injectors, 3" exhaust,
slicks and a new mapping - I will have launch control (starting with 0.5 bar) and I am thinking of higher pressure in the mid-range. Do you have any other options or suggestions? Also looking for the injectors.
On September 20th we have the championship - I am considering getting a new turbo and I am thinking of various options. The car is not purely for 1/4 mile, I also use it for amateur rallies, so Garret big turbo with no action below 4krpm is not an option . I need something that spools up quickly and is capable
of running 400-420 bhp. Maybe T3/T4:
http://innovativeturbo.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00105.5.974790051411648171
Maybe something from APS? Some other interesting suggestions?
I can only pray that the box makes it. I am planning to buy a Lateralperformance kit, but not before the end of the year (budget limitations :-)
Do you think an STi 6 speed box is a good replacement solution?
Thanks for any advice.
Marcin
30 June 2003, 01:59 PM
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U need 550cc injectors to run more power.
With launch control or 6000rpm launch u ll be there,but u need to prey for ur gear box.
Or set antilag with Autronic ?And practice some good 1/4 to fine tune ,w/spinning,gear changing (have u got a shift light?)
Dont forget to unload all unesessery load to save some weight
Cheers
From OZ
With launch control or 6000rpm launch u ll be there,but u need to prey for ur gear box.
Or set antilag with Autronic ?And practice some good 1/4 to fine tune ,w/spinning,gear changing (have u got a shift light?)
Dont forget to unload all unesessery load to save some weight
Cheers
From OZ
30 June 2003, 07:24 PM
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On the turbo front, it's also worth talking to Lateral Performance.
The rest of your thoughts look good to me! A new fuel pressure regulator to go with the 550s (it's amazing how much it sorts the fuel flow out!), also available from Lateral Performance
The rest of your thoughts look good to me! A new fuel pressure regulator to go with the 550s (it's amazing how much it sorts the fuel flow out!), also available from Lateral Performance
30 June 2003, 09:18 PM
#7
Hi Marcin,
To get to 420bhp you will need 550 injectors. The STi injectors are already 440. 3" downpipe (Hayward and Scott) and 3" exhaust (Revolution). Port your headers to get the last few bhp from them. More boost if your turbo can provide the volume otherwise we can talk about an alternative.
What induction are you running and have you altered your inlet tract ?
Re-map and you are about there.
I suppose that slicks will give you a quicker take off but this is at the expense of much more stress on the gearbox.
I have done 12.28 in the rain and expect to better that on 13th July. This is running standard road trim. As already mentioned anything you can do to reduce weight is really important.
Look here : www.geocities.com/harveysmith3000
To get to 420bhp you will need 550 injectors. The STi injectors are already 440. 3" downpipe (Hayward and Scott) and 3" exhaust (Revolution). Port your headers to get the last few bhp from them. More boost if your turbo can provide the volume otherwise we can talk about an alternative.
What induction are you running and have you altered your inlet tract ?
Re-map and you are about there.
I suppose that slicks will give you a quicker take off but this is at the expense of much more stress on the gearbox.
I have done 12.28 in the rain and expect to better that on 13th July. This is running standard road trim. As already mentioned anything you can do to reduce weight is really important.
Look here : www.geocities.com/harveysmith3000
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30 June 2003, 10:07 PM
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they ran slicks, well thats got to be worth a bit, have you tried running with the mirrors folded in, the wipers removed, the rear spoiler removed, 1/4 tank of feul, not spare & no tools in the car before going serious on the engine
01 July 2003, 08:46 AM
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Thanks.
Harvey - I mean the new STi injectors (pink ones) - they are 550 or 565. As far as I know the turbo can do just a bit more - but nothing like 400bhp.
I have a K&N large cone on the standard pipe (with cold air pipe from under the bumper), but I think of changing it as I do not use standard MAF anymore and it may be a slight restriction.
Can you say sth more about your turbo? How quickly does it spool-up? And what box are you running?
Harvey - I mean the new STi injectors (pink ones) - they are 550 or 565. As far as I know the turbo can do just a bit more - but nothing like 400bhp.
I have a K&N large cone on the standard pipe (with cold air pipe from under the bumper), but I think of changing it as I do not use standard MAF anymore and it may be a slight restriction.
Can you say sth more about your turbo? How quickly does it spool-up? And what box are you running?
02 July 2003, 01:22 AM
#13
550 injectors(or 740s) are available to fit m/y 99. New from Scoobymania,Roger Clark Motorsport,BRD etc. Secondhand may be available through the "Wanted" or try an e-mail to Pavlo who is on 22b most days.
My turbo is from Ion Performance in Canada and has 1 bar at 3,800rpm in 4th. Speak to Jack. I am sure he can do you a good deal.
I am presently running the O/E STi ver 6 box,and have added uprated centre viscuous plus front LSD.Rear LSD is standard.
My diffs are currently 4.11s. The car comes with 4.44s and I previously had them changed for 3.9s. My 1/4 ml time of 12.28 was on the 3.9s on my every day road tyres.
If you want any addresses etc mail me per profile.
My turbo is from Ion Performance in Canada and has 1 bar at 3,800rpm in 4th. Speak to Jack. I am sure he can do you a good deal.
I am presently running the O/E STi ver 6 box,and have added uprated centre viscuous plus front LSD.Rear LSD is standard.
My diffs are currently 4.11s. The car comes with 4.44s and I previously had them changed for 3.9s. My 1/4 ml time of 12.28 was on the 3.9s on my every day road tyres.
If you want any addresses etc mail me per profile.
02 July 2003, 10:33 AM
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No personal experience, but haven't heard anything good about the APS range yet from anyone who knows there turbos (rather than those who have just stuck one in & can only compare it to the TD04, etc!)
02 July 2003, 10:48 PM
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Marcin,
it looks like you really want to beat black MTS devil's wagon
I used to say man shouldn't even think of tuning his subaru cause once he does, he can't stop. But it seems like it's too late 4 U
Coming back to your turbo, if it's quicker spool up (3200-3300 RPM) you're after, you should definately pick up VF23. I have seen its technical description as I want to fit it to my WRX. I have some good source for this turbo and STI 550 Injectors if U like.
If you are interested, e-mail me or just call 603 068 361.
One more issue. What petrol have you ran last saturday?
I prepared 102RON mix and it was impressive (Shell 99+ mixed with 2 bottles of Millers Octane booster). I would recommend it to you. The only think I forgot (unfortunately) is that ECU needs at least 100kms of driving to learn this fuel. I have done only 20 before racing and a real kick came on my way back home. Too late
Good luck with your mods.
Marek
it looks like you really want to beat black MTS devil's wagon
I used to say man shouldn't even think of tuning his subaru cause once he does, he can't stop. But it seems like it's too late 4 U
Coming back to your turbo, if it's quicker spool up (3200-3300 RPM) you're after, you should definately pick up VF23. I have seen its technical description as I want to fit it to my WRX. I have some good source for this turbo and STI 550 Injectors if U like.
If you are interested, e-mail me or just call 603 068 361.
One more issue. What petrol have you ran last saturday?
I prepared 102RON mix and it was impressive (Shell 99+ mixed with 2 bottles of Millers Octane booster). I would recommend it to you. The only think I forgot (unfortunately) is that ECU needs at least 100kms of driving to learn this fuel. I have done only 20 before racing and a real kick came on my way back home. Too late
Good luck with your mods.
Marek
02 July 2003, 11:32 PM
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Harvey's is quite 'top end' stuff though? As in all the power is fairly high up, which I didn't think was what was required here?
Seriously good results, though
I'd still talk to Mark @ Lateral Performance if I were you...
Seriously good results, though
I'd still talk to Mark @ Lateral Performance if I were you...
02 July 2003, 11:49 PM
#23
You asked about the gearbox. As yet I have not found what I consider to be the ideal solution so for now I stick with my five speed STi ver 6 and AP Organic Uprated clutch. I am on the second one because the torque on take up rived the centre out of the previous clutch, even though the friction material was unworn after 20,000mls. The clutch is operating beyond designed torque specification. Afterall, a clutch is quicker and cheaper to change than a gearbox.
If you were to look at gear sets then contact Town End Garage who import these direct from Australia. www.townendgarage.co.uk
If you were to look at gear sets then contact Town End Garage who import these direct from Australia. www.townendgarage.co.uk
03 July 2003, 12:03 AM
#24
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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i'd take a venture onto another bbs ie 22b.com and see what a lateral performance turbo can do 
03 July 2003, 12:26 AM
#25
Marcin: Have you done anything with your inlet tract yet as this is likely to be a restriction at the power level you want to achieve. Mine is currently a BPM or is it MRT? Anyway it came from Scoobymania and replaced an unsatisfactory Samco.
APS Turbo??? Who else is running this option, producing over 400bhp and happy with the results?
Nom:"Harvey's is quite 'top end' stuff though? As in all the power is fairly high up, which I didn't think was what was required here?"
What is going on? Where does this come from?
The car is not as bottom end as one of Andy Forrest's TD05-06 upgrades but it makes 1 bar comfortably at 3,800 rpm in 4th.
I think you have been misslead.
Infact, I change up at 6,500-7,000rpm as the car is asthmatic above that,despite the 8,000 red line, nothing to do with the turbo but other issues I am addressing in my next 2litre engine.
A TD05-06 upgrade from Andy Forrest would probably suit Marcin well as would a turbo from www.jack@ionperformance.com.
Tell me how Lateral Performance turbos on 2 litre engines make a proven 400 bhp never mind 420 bhp at this present time???
APS Turbo??? Who else is running this option, producing over 400bhp and happy with the results?
Nom:"Harvey's is quite 'top end' stuff though? As in all the power is fairly high up, which I didn't think was what was required here?"
What is going on? Where does this come from?
The car is not as bottom end as one of Andy Forrest's TD05-06 upgrades but it makes 1 bar comfortably at 3,800 rpm in 4th.
I think you have been misslead.
Infact, I change up at 6,500-7,000rpm as the car is asthmatic above that,despite the 8,000 red line, nothing to do with the turbo but other issues I am addressing in my next 2litre engine.
A TD05-06 upgrade from Andy Forrest would probably suit Marcin well as would a turbo from www.jack@ionperformance.com.
Tell me how Lateral Performance turbos on 2 litre engines make a proven 400 bhp never mind 420 bhp at this present time???
03 July 2003, 08:25 AM
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Marek, yes, I want to beat MTS wagon
Regarding the turbo - VF23 is not what I'm looking for - my current VF34 has more or less similar potential. It has to be something bigger.
Harvey, where can I read more about TD05-06 upgrade? Where can I buy it? And my standard inlet tract will be replaced soon.
Regarding the turbo - VF23 is not what I'm looking for - my current VF34 has more or less similar potential. It has to be something bigger.
Harvey, where can I read more about TD05-06 upgrade? Where can I buy it?
And my standard inlet tract will be replaced soon.
03 July 2003, 12:36 PM
#27
His e-mail address is andyf6000@hotmail.com. He is not a commercial supplier of turbos but an enthusiast with a lot of automotive experience. At present Subarus are his delight and he is also a highly qualified engineer.
His 2 litre car is very quick with sub 12 second quarters. He developed a turbo to suit his own requirements and has since produced a few more for interested parties.
There were boost control issues when he first did his own but since them I believe the turbo has been refined and several people are running them very happily.
His 2 litre car is very quick with sub 12 second quarters. He developed a turbo to suit his own requirements and has since produced a few more for interested parties.
There were boost control issues when he first did his own but since them I believe the turbo has been refined and several people are running them very happily.
03 July 2003, 12:38 PM
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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Tell me how Lateral Performance turbos on 2 litre engines make a proven 400 bhp never mind 420 bhp at this present time???
what turbo was steve using?
David
03 July 2003, 12:41 PM
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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Also see here for dyno results of an engine using a lateral performance turbo.. http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000495.html
I would say this would be the highest torque figure seen on an subaru in the uk outside of prodrive
Adam 2 is a matter of weeks apparently.
David
I would say this would be the highest torque figure seen on an subaru in the uk outside of prodrive
Adam 2 is a matter of weeks apparently.
David