Charlie H

Someone please help!! I posted a thread the other day about my car stalling and my AFR showing rich all the time. I have just tried to start it again and it wont fire up now. The afr is constantly showing rich, I have connected the diagnostic port but it shows ok with no error codes. I can't hear the fluid noise that I usually get when I turn on the ignition. I thought it might be the fuel pump as the car turns over but doesn't fire up but why would this cause the afr to show rich??? I presumed it would show lean I'm supposed to be going to Scotland on sunday in it and now I'm panicking

Can someone please point me in the right direction as I don't know what to try first (and yes, I do have petrol in before anyone asks)

I am supposed to be going out in half an hour but all I can do is worry about what's wrong HELP!!!!!!

Chris.Palmer

Silly question but how is it running rich if it wont start? - I assume it sttarted to run richer & now you can't start it - If this is the case I'd guess these are different problems.

You should hear a whine of puel pump priming when ignitioin turned on - this sounds like your first port of call - check fuel is getting through.

Assume engine check light comes on then off "indicating no faults" - if there is no engine check light - test ECU power & ground.
Does it fire at all (ie odd bit of combustion or is there none)?

If fuel is ok check for spark & fuel.


[Edited by Chris.Palmer - 5/22/2003 7:37:55 PM]

Charlie H

Check engine light seems ok. Doesn't even attempt to fire up. It was stalling last sunday when cold and I did get some knock for a few seconds but ran ok after that. How would I check the fuel pump is ok?

Chris.Palmer

Stick head in boot driver side & listen for whine of pump.

Disconnect fuel pipe under bonnet & see if fuel spurts everywhere.

PS - Assume you've got a pre MY97.

[Edited by Chris.Palmer - 5/22/2003 7:43:36 PM]

Charlie H

Sorry - it's a 93 wrx, with no major mods, just knocklink, dawes afr and spa boost gauge. Don't know if it's relavent but I changed the battery last week so have I done something to the ecu? Will check fuel pump first thing in the morning as I'm all dressed up now and I don't think the missus would be too pleased if I started to get my hands dirty again. Cheers for you input Chris, it is most appreciated. I've had 3 years without any problems and this couldn't have come at a worse time

Chris.Palmer

Changing battery shouldn't affect ECU - If Check enginge light comes on then off, I'd guess ECU is ok - but if you need reassurance & need to borrow one - I've got a couple of spares.

If you haven't got the workshop manual - check out my home page - it makes this kind of thing much simpler.

These things always happen at the worst time - sods law I'm afraid mate - if it happened when you didn't need the car or had more time to investigate it wouldn't be such issue.

Best of luck - I'll do my best to help.

Chris

[Edited by Chris.Palmer - 5/22/2003 8:17:44 PM]

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Did you disturb an earth cable whilst changing the battery, are the terminals tight?

eddiebeef

Is the engine turning over ok??

If you changed the battery recently it may be something to do with your alarm (assuming you have one fitted).

I once rebuilt my engine and put it all back together, it would turn over but would not start. Checked everything out to be ok except I hadnt plugged the alarm cable back in. I messed around for ages checking the ignition and everything. It fired up straight away after reconnecting the alarm!!

Charlie H

I have a Clifford alarm fitted and that does immobilise the fuel pump I think? Does anyone know what voltages I should be getting on the fuel pump connector? I have 4 wires on it but can only get 5 volts on one of the wires, nothing on the others?

Charlie H

Earth connections have been checked and seem ok. Chris - afr still shoots up to rich as soon as I turn the ignition on, even without turning it over that is what is really confusing me. I'm going to check to see if I'm getting a voltage on the signal wire this afternoon, as well as having a look at the fuel pump wiring.

Charlie H

Could a faulty lambda cause the ecu to shut down the fuel pump?

Chris.Palmer

The AFR thing is very peculiar - you should only see a about 500mv (certainly less than 800mv)to see all lights on the AFR then you'd need over 900mv

I believe the Clifford wireless fuel cut can be quite sensitive - disturbed earthing may have upset it - I recommend giving Max (Maximum Impact Auto Audio & Security in Leeds) a call on this one.

I'll try & find the diagnostics on the fuel pump.

Chris

Chris.Palmer

Lambda is ignored by ECU when cold as it doesn't provide readings until up to temp. Hence AFRs show no lights for first few minutes of driving - or shouldn't!

PS - Complete Workshop Diagnostics - mailed in two parts each approx 2MB.

If this is too big let me know & I'll split it down further - or download it from my web site.

Cheers,

Chris


[Edited by Chris.Palmer - 5/23/2003 12:15:26 PM]

Charlie H

I don't have the wireless fuel cut out as I have the 500 which didn't include that bit. When I get home I'll measure lambda voltage and try to figure out what's happening. May also try dissing the battery to "reset" all the electronics in the car just in case something has locked up.

Charlie H

That's what is confusing me Chris - I shouldn't have the afr on at all for the first 5 mins. It only started doing this last sunday and now the car has got worse That's why I was asking if the ecu would shut down the fuel pump if the lambda seemed to be showing constant rich. The car has fired up 3 times while having this strange afr reading but now the pump won't even fire up so I thought it might be some kind of safety thing.

[Edited by Charlie H - 5/23/2003 12:06:39 PM]

Chris.Palmer

I'd be surprised if the ECU was doing some safety thing without throwing a fault code - mind you I could be wrong - it certainly wouldn't be the first.

Have look at the Diagnostics stuff - Page 19... & Page26...

Let me know how you get on,

Chris

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Have you had a look at my thread : lamda stuck at full rick ?

It now seems to be working fine and appears to have been a faulty pcv. The diagnostic manual that has been sent by Chris is a great help. Look at the things that cause non starting... i beleive there's quite a few and work back from there.

Tony.

Charlie H

What's a pcv? I'll have a look through the manual when I get home. And as a bonus, it's started p155ing it down and I don't have a garage

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

The pcv is part of the breather system.... i don't think it would cause the car not to start tho. Maybe a combination of things?

A quick look at the manual says it could be:

02 sensor
Cam/crank sensor/s
Coolant temp sensor
Idle switch
Starter switch.... etc

Quite a few things.... best to start with the obivous things and work your way down.

Tony.

David_Wallis

Where abouts are you?

If you really stuck I can come and have a look at it??

David

Charlie H

I'm in Harrogate. I think I have narrowed it down to the fuel pump circuit now. I reset the electrics by disconnecting the battery and the afr isn't on now. I checked the diagnostic section of the workshop manual and it says I should have 5 volts and 12 volts on the fuel pump connectors but I dont have the 12v one so maybe a wiring problem/ fuel pump relay. Problem is I can't find the relay as my alarm control unit has been fitted behind the steering wheel and is going to make life even harder.

David, are you free tomorrow? I would really appreciate a hand. I would sort you out with some dosh for petrol/time etc.

If it is the relay then I better get to the local dealer as I presume it will be a non standard one knowing subaru and they are only open until lunchtime.

David_Wallis

ring me if you get stuck..

I am about tomorrow...I have no transport though.. will see what I can do though..

If its got a clifford alarm (say concept 600.. could be wireless fuel pump immobiliser)

If you need the relay I can remove mine, its located above the fuse box in the drivers foot well.. remove the relay then use a meter beteween the trigger for the ecu and a 12v supply.. as The ecu pulls low to trigger the relay.. you can also test the ecu is outputting the correct signal.. I have the pin number at home..

Eitherway the relay should switch on for about 3 secs when ign goes on then turn off.. 5v is wrong.. did you have a good ground? what did you use as the earth? (was it a digital multimeter?)

if you put 12v direct to the fuel pump connector what happens???

Have you checked the fuel pump fuse??

off out on the beer..

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 5/23/2003 7:56:13 PM]

Charlie H

I've got to go out soon too. Thanks for your help David, I'll give you a bell tomorrow. I'll try to figure out why I'm loosing the voltage. Battery voltage is ok so must be a poor earth or something

Charlie H

Have checked the voltage to a good chassis point and still getting 4.5volts but that is on the thinner blue wire. According to the workshop manual, the wire I should be testing (thicker blue/yellow)isn't showing anyting at all. Earth wire tested to 0.1 ohm so no problem there. Have my dash in bits at the moment but need to find the fuel pump fuse - anyone help out? I think the relay I need is the round one with the green connector, is this correct?

David_Wallis

will check tomorrow..

David

Charlie H

Cheers mate. I've given it up as a bad job tonight, I'll have a good crack at it tomorrow.

Charlie H

Right - I'm going to start again. David, can you point me in the direction of the fuse you mentioned? I've asked on this board for the location but no-one seems to know. I'm going to e-mail you my mobile number, could you send me yours again as It's vanished from the thread.

Charlie H

****! Due to misreading the diagnostic pin outs, I've just stuck 12v across the control pin of the ecu and one of the chips has blown!!!! I've checked the relay and the wiring to the pump and all seems ok. Need to check the actual pump now but it's not a lot of use without an ecu

David, do you have any old ecu's lying about the place?

Charlie H

Got an ecu on it's way as we speak.

Charlie H

Right, I'm really confused now. I have connected 12 volts directly to the fuel pump and there is no noise so I presumed that has died BUT, I have tested the voltage to the pump and that isn't there either. I have checked all the wiring back to the ecu and it is all ok, I have 12 volts to the relay and have tested the relay to subaru specs. Should the 12v be present at the pump all the time when the ignition is on? I presume it would be but I just can't figure out why I can't get 12v at the pump with the ignition on. Do these cars have any sort of fuel cut off that might have been triggered and caused the ecu to shut off the fuel relay?

I've given up on it now It looks like I'm off to the highlands in a poxy landrover discovery van now