Scoobert

hummmm......there seems to be a lot of talk of which ECU to use but it isn't going to make any difference to power if you don't have the turbo to blow enough air into the engine in the first place.

why is it the evo's and cossies have no problem making over 500bhp from a 2.0 engine but when it comes to scoobs the max from a 2.0 seems to be 350.

it has nothing to do with the engine size, layout or strength.

in my opinion it seems to be the turbos that are being used aren't up to the job.

there seems to be a lot of so called performance turbos out there that just don't cut.

in some cases the standard turbos are better than the ones that some people are paying through the nose for.

the companies out there that are supplying these turbos know that this is the problem but are keeping there mouths shut about it as they can't seem to solve the problem.

the problem is that the whole subaru community are being misinformed about how to tune their engines by self proclaimed experts that think they have the monopoly on the subaru tuning community.

what they are doing is holding us back for their own profit.

it seems that everyone is of the opinion that to achieve over 400 bhp you need a 2.5 engine when in fact its the turbos that are lacking and the extra displacement is needed to make up this short fall.

the sooner the subaru tuning community opens their eyes to this the better.

STOP BEING SHEEP!

thanks for listening and i hope what i have said had hit home to some of you!

R19KET

Scoobert,

I don't know why you're saying this. Of couse you can get over 400bhp out os a 2lt scoob, Harvey has already proven this, and I'm sure there is more to come.

There are certainly issues with achieving this on standard internals, just like on Cosworth, and the EVO, and don't forget that they both have steel blocks.

The reason that most get 340~350bhp, is because that is what they are prepared to run on standard internals !!!

If you want a turbo capable of 400bhp +, then I can help you, or speak to Harvey, or any of the other turbo suppliers will sort you out.

Mark.

Trout...

Is puzzled by Scooberts tirade - has someone sold you a duff turbo?

Certainly if you are prepared to push standard internals then well over 400bhp is possible - but to do that you need to upgrade the injectors, IC, ECU, fuel pump, induction and inlet pipes (standard inlet pipe will not produce more than around 350bhp) etc, etc.

You can fit all sorts of turbos to a Scoob - I have seen some very big ones - but most people do not want to get custom pipework made up - or go that next step.

Trout

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

scoobert, i have personaly been in a 400+ bhp scooby that has a 2.0 open deck block that belongs to harvey smith.
the car produced 417 bhp on well lanes rolling road.
from your post i get the feeling you have had a bad experience of some kind but i am sure the company would help you out if you contact them and explain the problem.
if you want more info on harvey's car have a look at www.tyneteesscoobies.com
or e-mail him on harveysmith13@hotmail.com
he is a friendly guy and has a good knowledge of tuning the 2.0

Andy.F

I'm with Scoobert on this one, there are a lot of low performance, expensive turbo's changing hands out there.

David_Wallis

nope im sorry.. im not convinced...

For you to get a turbo for you car.. you should be saying what you want it to achieve.. Ie you tell them what you want and they sell you it.. I've just sold my hybrid which I never fitted.. but all im saying is that my new turbo can and will perform and it will all be very public come the first week in feburary...

IMHO Half the problem is people with the cossies arent scared to do work themselves look at turbosports projects section, or restorations section.. what do we have.. .I bought xxx from xxx and I paid xxx to do xxx. Im well impressed..

or what bhp can I expect from xxx..

People need to get their heads out of there ar$es, get their hands t and modify their own cars instead of just paying money for a 'trubo' a 'fmic' and a remap..

Its not quite that simple.. The same people seem confused as to what oil or petrol should go in the car...

Maybe its time they did some research into what they pay for..

My rant over.. I know what my new engine will be doing.. and Im happy with what I have chosen...

David
David

pat

Scoobert,

if you seriously believe that you can run 400 BHP on standard internals then you can have my spare turbo which is currently "collecting dust" while it waits for a new home... in its previous life it managed to max out a set of 550cc injectors running higher than normal fuel pressure, which equates to roughly 400 BHP. This was on a 2 litre, but as you'll no doubt discover, at this kind of output it won't be too long before your head gasket or ring lands blow...

When it does blow (and it's not a question of whether it will or not, just a question of when) I'll be happy to sell you a set of head studs, and I'm sure that Mark will be happy to sell you a set of rods and pistons, after all if you're having to strip it down completely you'de be foolish not to replace the rods and pistons. If you do decide not to replace those then like another friend of mine, and I discovered, one day you'll be driving along minding your own business when a rod decides to skillfully craft a new crank case ventilation hole all of its own accord, accompanied by an immediate 25% redution in torque as one piston ceases to be connected with the crankshaft, and closely thereafter followed by the engine being completely destroyed.

Perhaps it is because people have learnt the hard way where the limits are on standard internals, that suppliers match the turbos to the application. If you tell your turbo supplier that your engine can cope with 2 bar because you have steel internals, forged pistons, uprated head bolts or studs etc, then they'll be happy to provide a turbo that can and WILL make 400 BHP, it's been done before, it can be done again. Trouble is most people don't want to get involved with internals, because it's a whole lot of grief to do anything to the innards. So, pray, tell me what is the point in supplying these people with a turbo capable of making 450 BHP when in order to do so you need to run a larger laggier compressor wheel and maybe even a larger A/R exhaust housing ? There's no point whatsoever in incurring the additional lag associated with a larger turbo unless you actually plan to USE it...

While Harvey may have made 417BHP on the rollers, nothing really "happens" until you get way up the revs, you'de have to work the 'box real hard to keep it in the very narrow power band. But most of us spend 99% of our time on public roads, so it makes more sense to have good useable boost as low down as possible, which naturally means keeping the A/Rs low and as with any compromise, this will limit top end power. At the end of the day it's all about choosing which compromise suits your needs best; do you want a driveable day-to-day car or do you want a track day warrior that needs considerable skill to harness (and will, ultimately, be faster on track, at the expense of being slower on the road) ?

Cheers,

Pat.

Andy.F

Pat

I still agree with Scoobert because I believe it is possible, by carefull selection and design, to build a turbo that will make in excess of 420 bhp on a 2.0 scoob AND have less lag (ie 1 bar by 2.8k rpm) than the current breed of 350 bhp VF based hybrids.

Andy

dominicm

I have owned a couple of EVO's and can assure you the standard internals will not cope with 500+bhp and that over 350bhp is not easily achieved without spending a load of cash on Turbos etc!!

Just blame ford/cosworth for over engineering their engines!!!

Dom.

David_Wallis

Andy,

Would you not say its fair to say theres a bit more work than just a turbo to get that boost?

David

Andy.F

Yes, agree. Just don't think that at that level you need to sacrifice driveability...............as long as you fit the right turbo !!

Trout...

Andy,

i think you are in a privilaged position in that you have the skills, knowledge, time and access to make these things happen for your Subaru - and from what I have seen - it is not just the turbo that makes what you do successful.

For those without those skills, £2k spent on a remap, a hybrid and a fuel pump to get say 300-350bhp when they previously had 230bhp in a UK Scoob would seem to be excellent value for money.

From my perspective - Scoobert may have a very personal beef - and given that there are not many turbo suppliers on this board it would seem to be very personal in a targeted way.

I say this as there are much greater examples of simple pure rip-off in the Scooby world than the turbo arena....many of the prices I have seen for standard rebuilds - let alone modified rebuilds leave me stunned.

Or the guy who posted how is 'trusted' builder got him a special deal on rods for £1200, when they retail at well below £1000, and so it goes on. Or the guy who spent £12k on a remap and tune up - for parts that cost around £3,500 and got around 40bhp increase.

There is nothing unique to Subarus in this - in the Evo world at least as money is spent to get similar figures - and the 500bhp targets that Scoobert quotes are fo very serious and expensive engines.

Trout

Andy.F

Aww Trout, get the smiley back

I'm not having a go at any supplier. I'm making the point that all the information is out there but most people don't research it before spending their hard earned.
I had never even heard of a VF or a TD series turbo before I got a scoob but one thing's for sure, I done my homework before buying anything

<- for Trout

Trout...

Andy,

not having a go at you per se - just taking a wider view in developing your point - which I guess you agree with - that not everyone has the knowledge to do the market/technical research - but, and a BIG BUT, that turbos seems like an odd place for Scoobert to attack when there are so many areas where Scooby drivers are being much more genuinely ripped off!

Gets ready for a Trout and Andy love-in

Trout (for Andy)

Trout (for Scoobert)

Scoobert

pat,
never once in my post did i mention STANDARD internals.
i said a 2.0 engine
it looks to me as if you are trying to put up a smoke screen to divert away from the points i am making.
do you have a hidden agenda?

david,
that is a very good point you make about the cossie owners not being afraid to have a go as i used to be a cossie owner myself.
out of interest what turbo are you using on your car and why did you choose not to use your original hybrid?

thanks for the info on harvey's car, i had a long and interesting conversation with him, turned out to be a bit of an eye opener!

scoobert

Trout...

Scoobert,

do you have a hidden agenda?

Or do you just think that all Subaru tuners are bad people?

A couple of years ago - everyone was in awe of a car that produced over 300bhp - that has moved on to 350-360, even for UK cars - which people thought was not possible. So someone must be doing something right. There are many customers who are very happy people on here.

In terms of higher figures - say over 400bhp - how many customers ask for turbos that can do this - cos they are available - as has already been mentioned harvey managed it, Craig H got around 400bhp with his VF.

If you want to go really big then you would have to change your turbo strategy and get custom pipework etc, and not many people have gone this far.....yet

So chill out mate.

Or if you do have an agenda - then lets get it out and talk about it properly.

Trout

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Seems to me that Scoobert has made some valid points. I have not been on the net much lately but I am aware of a number of people selling their hybrid turbos and I am also aware of several that are not happy with their performance. No doubt others have made similar observations.I also have first hand knowledge of several disgruntled customers who have not yet aired their views.
I was initially offered an MD304 and then a 309. At that time Mark Aigan had a full copy of my spec. The 304 was clearly not what I needed and I did give consideration to the 309. I had purchased a set of tubular headers from Canada and when Jack at Ion Performance saw that I was looking for a turbo he asked for my spec. At that point I had no intention of buying a turbo from overseas but I am very glad that I did. There are several cars around with similar spec to mine except for the Ion Performance headers and turbo and as far as I am concerned that is the difference between mediocre performance and what I have now.
Conventional thinking from the people that know about these things was that a good one mike make 380 bhp.
Fortunately I was not a sheep.
Pat: I always read your threads with interest and I recon I have learned quite a bit from your often thought provoking threads. However you are quite wrong to comment on my narrow power band when you have not been in the car,nor have you spoken to me about it or even spoken to anyone who has ever been a passenger in it on the open road.
In fact the car has a far wider power band than another car I have,
a M/Y 95 WRX Wagon. The M/Y 00 STi ver 6 Wagon will pull cleanly in 5th from 1,700 rpm and from 2,700rpm in 5th it would pull up the side of the Eiger. Somewhere around 3,500 it goes as well in 5th as it used to in 3rd. In 4th 1 bar is at 3,800rpm and an STi ver 7 owner commented to me recently that the pick up was better and lower down than on his standard car.
Please do not be taken in by the pundits.
On the road I run between 2,000 and 4000 rpm but if I am in a hurry between 3,000 and 5,000rpm which in third from memory is over 70mph. There is so much power that using much more revs on the road would end in H.M.P.
No need to take it way up the revs,no need to work the box hard, not even on track, even there I am changing to stay between 3,500 and 7,000 with a red line at 8,000rpm.There have been some incredibly fast lap times set in a relatively relaxed manner with some people on this board in the passenger seat who know how wide the power band is and how unnecessary it is to go to the red line.
In the cruise the car will also run off boost on the level at 4000rpm (96mph) with ease so you see I do have a drivable day to day car and incredible track day warrior but it is not at the expense of being slower on the road.
If you are still sceptical I will take you out at the first opportunity and if anything I say here is not accurate then you can publicise that fact.
Pat, I sincerely hope this clears up your misconception which was obviously shared by the many commentators out there.

iON Performance

From reading these threads, it's quite easily deduced that many people don't first stop and think what their requirements of the car are for before buying a turbo (and/or other performance parts). Our philosophy here is to have a car perform well at it's specific task that it's designed for.

One general mis-conception is the "one size fits all" attitude. You must know what you want out of your car before pursing the proper upgrade path.

Trout...

Harvey,

clearly not what you wanted - I don't know exactly what Mark and you discussed about your turbo - however you made it quite clear that you wanted a moderate turbo - indeed you wanted to test drive my car, and you talked to me on the phone and even came to my house to do so, as you were paranoid that the MD309 might be too laggy (have too high a boost threshold for Andy F.) for your needs.

And in the end you buy a very powerful turbo that has a higher boost threshold than the MD309.

Frankly I am disgusted by the character assasination here - but if you didn't ask your supplier for the type of turbo you really wanted I think it is disgusting behaviour to effectively slag them off here because you found something you preferred eslewhere.

I can only agree with what iON have posted - and you - at the beginning - gave your supplier inappropriate direction.

Trout

Adam M

Harvey,

regardless of your issues with people, I think pats comment on your power band was related to your dyno plot from the rolling road day.

You said you wouldnt post it which is fair enough but you did say it was open for people to look at and discuss on the day, and I think it was based on that plot that pat is saying what he said.

The thing I dont understand is, if you are so defensive about people thinking you have no low down torque, then surely the best way to prove your point is to post your graph, since it was availble publically on the day, what difference would it make putting it up here?

People seem to refer to high power cossies with reference to the subarus and say why cant we make the same power. The fact is we can, cant see any reason why not, if not a little more due to higher rev limits. I dont understand why people are under the misconception that a 2.0 cosworth engine with a massive turbo is not going to be laggy, the fact is, it is. At least compared to what the people with standard imprezas are used to. On top of this high power cossies have lower compression which again will make things even worse.


It is also the fact that turbos are generally compromises, and that it is impossible to get low boost threshold and massive power without something like variable geometry. Even the precious twin scroll of the JDM sti is expected to run out of puff at 350bhp.

One solution is a higher compression engine, but again you cant run as much boost up the top anyway so tend to limit your usable revs.

Andy.F

I can give one simple reason why there is so much misconception regarding Harveys rolling road power curve.

The wastegate was NOT closing during spool up !!! This was due to a linkage issue. As a result of this, on the rollers the car had delayed boost build and appeared "laggy"

If in any doubt, try this on your own car, slacken the actuator off until the penny hangs slack and see how dead it feels at the bottom end.

CraigH

I'd like to see the dyno plot.

Would be interesting to see how it compares to mine - see how 18months of evolution change things

Adam M

has harvey run again with it closed?

I would love to see a true plot.

Does this also mean that once he actually was at maximum boost it was leaking slightly also? because that would mean even more boost which would be even more impressive.

When is the next rolling road day as I would love to see that one in the flesh?


edited due to attrocious typing.

[Edited by Adam M - 1/21/2003 11:57:37 AM]

CraigH

Oops. Ok maybe not

Scoobert,

Regarding your post, I think you'll find this is the same no matter which car you have. There are always people/companies who know and people who pretend to.

You think it's bad now? you should've seen what it was like 2 years ago.

1 person has been around pretty much longer than anyone else with regards to tuning and exploring the limits of the engines. They don't keep a high profile because they don't need to - their work and expertise say it all.

They are the people you want, not necessarily the ones with nice colourful adverts.

Andy.F

Adam I think you'll find the wastegate is always open at full power high rpm.

Adam M

only once max boost target has been reached andy, on the way up and when just reaching the target it should be fully closed.

If there is a permanent offset which the boost controller(assuming a decent ecu, I dont know what he is running) is not good enough to compensate for then across the board he will still been wasting more than intended.

pat

Andy,

You are forgetting one fundamental problem with the Subaru engine, the turbo is too far away from the exhaust ports... look at a Cossie, a Toyota etc and you'll find they all have their turbos close to the exhaust ports. Getting a low boost threshold on a Subaru and still being able to flow good air at the top is VASTLY more difficult to achieve than with an inline engine, you simply CANNOT compare turbo characteristics on a Cossie to a Scoob.... put a 38 inch primary length exhaust manifold on a Cossie and see how crap the turbo spools then. It MAY be possible to get a VF or Garrett hybrid to get boost by 2k8 and make 420 BHP, but I suspect that it would have to be a twin scroll job with a special manifold. Oh hang on, I think STi have already thought of that idea, they're using it on the STi VIII JDM. I suggested it AGES ago, but none took me seriously....


Scoobert,

You are right, you dind't mention standard internals, however the vast majority of people who buy turbos, certainly up to this year, HAVE had standard internals, of course there have been a few notable exceptions, who have been running well over 400 BHP even on a 2 litreand they were using turbos appropriate to their applications.

I have no hidden agenda, I'm just trying to put thing into context. We were getting 400 BHP out of 2 litre cars ages ago, noone has ever said that it cannot be done, and that there aren't any hybrids about that will flow the air for that power, all you have to do is ASK for one and you'll get it, simple, isn't it? Say that you have steel internals, forged pistons etc, and that you WANT to run (say) 2 bar all the way to the redline, and a turbo that can and WILL do that can be supplied.

With regard to the cost of turbos, you need to remember that IHI turbos are NOT cheap to buy, much more expensive than a Garrett, so naturally the Ford hybrids are going to be cheaper, because they cheaper turbos to start with. However, you might like to look at the cost of doing a hybrid for a Ford with a Garrett GT core, that'll level the playing field somewhat in terms of turbo technology (it'de be unrealistic to compare a Garrett sleve bearing turbo to an IHI ball bearing core, at least compare like with like). Furthermore, the cost of the original turbo isn't a linear function of its flow capability, so a 700 BHP Garrett doesn't cost a lot more than a 280BHP Garrett turbo. The cost of hybridisation is also fairly constant, because it generally involves the same amount of work, it's only if you get a weird (say Titanium) compressor wheel that's expensive that it would make a big difference.

Look at it this way... cost of original turbo : similar. Cost of hybridisation : similar. So regardless of the amount of air you want it to flow, it will cost in the same ballpark (within sensible limits, obviously that 3000 BHP turbo I mentioned will be somewhat dearer ). BHP per buck, obviously the bigger ones will be better, but it's not all just about the top end, certainly not on a road car at least (OK, drag racing is different). Compared to a 450BHP hybrid, a 350BHP hybrid seems like an expensive low performance turbo, but in reality it isn't.

A hybrid isn't just about top end air flow, it's about transient response, compressor efficieny etc. So when you pay your X pounds for a 350BHP hybrid you are getting a turbo that will give you a cooler, denser charge, it will spool at least as well as your original (unless you started with a TD04L, which is seriously small). You certainly have the option of getting a 450BHP unit at the time of placing the order, but of course there is a trade off in terms of transient response and probably boost threshold too; pointless in getting one on a standard car, wouldn't you agree?

Harvey,

You're absolutely right, I have not been in your car, but there is no denying the fact that it did, at least on one occasion on the rollers, show a narrow power band. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, I "cut my teeth" on an STi II which is lag city, you just develop a different driving style to get the best out of it, and it usually involves stirring the old 'box a bit more to keep it on the boil. But for Joe Bloggs your average driver, they may not want to change their driving style to take advantage of a much bigger turbo. Like I said before, I have a spare turbo collecting dust that can produce, and has produced, 400 BHP, but nothing happens until about 3700 RPM with this unit, a 350 BHP unit tends to be around 3200, and the VF35 I can get good boost by 2800 on and get it up to 335 BHP (but that does include variable valve timing, so it's not a fair direct comparison).

The MY95 is lag city anyway, so comparing that to the hybrid you have isn't ideal. With regard to STi VIIs, they have crap boost control when you change the exhaust, it's no surprise that the owner thought yours was good in comparison. I datalogged one yesterday, it made 1 bar by 3700, but I can get full boost by 2700 on the same car when I ECUTEK them... have a look at the PE ECUTEK thread for a power and torque plot from an STi VII I mapped, notice that it makes more torque at 3000 than a stock WRX ever does, and then it just keeps going. It'de be much more meaningful for you to compare your car directly to a car running an MD254, MD304 or similar.

I'de be happy to take you up on the offer to experience the car personally. If it does go as well as you describe then I'll happily post up to that effect, I have nothing to gain or to lose, but am continually in search of the truth and better ways of doing something...

Cheers,

Pat.

David_Wallis

****, do some work for once and look what I miss..

Scoobert, Im not saying what turbo Im using yet, as I cant... I need to decide what I want first which is proving hard..

However all will be revealed come febuary... Then people are going to sit up and take notice... And its going to take more than Andy or Harveys Power to worry me

**** forgot, still got std suspension and 4pots..



David
ps anybody want to buy a kidney?

john banks

My results which I have not shared publically so far... trying not to make it personal and keep it technical, all of it is obviously up for debate.... it is a bit long....

When I bought my MD304 I bought it on the basis that it had typically achieved 350 BHP at 1.25-1.3 bar, and made decent boost by 3000-3200 RPM. It did indeed perform as described, at least when I used a 3 port solenoid and a 1.2 bar actuator (a direct connection from compressor outlet to actuator on 1 bar actuator only gave 0.65 bar though). At this level I was happy with it.

When I bought it I was told it was rated to 1.8 bar, so I thought I had a lot of reserve and that this turbo would potentially make extra power beyond 350 BHP commensurate with the ability to run another 0.5 bar at least. I was told that others were running 1.6-2.0 bar on them right to the red line (albeit the higher level not guaranteed). When I pushed the first turbo to 1.4 bar at 7000 RPM (by tightening the 1.2 bar actuator) it let go within a few days. I never ran the midrange more than 1.5 bar. It was replaced under warranty but was thought to have been oversped. At the time I was puzzled how I could have oversped a 1.8 bar turbo by running a manifold pressure of 1.5 bar tapering off to 1.4 bar, inlet pipe was one suggestion, but a 0.3-0.4 bar pressure drop in the inlet seems unlikely. However, I cannot quibble with the level of service even though the turbo supplier thought it had been oversped (probably through my abuse).

A replacement promptly arrived (again cannot argue with the service), and I was a bit more cautious. Worked my way up again being absolutely paranoid about overspeeding it and being very soft with part throttle boost control. I never tightened the 1.2 bar actuator. I could get 280 BHP at the wheels on AP22 at only 1.3 bar (say 350 flywheel +- 10 BHP). Several on here can confirm that the car was quite impressive for its boost level, and even in isolation.

In pushing the top end duty cycles again I could get slightly more top end boost (I was aiming for 300 BHP at the wheels, 20 more than at 1.3 bar), but the car lost 20 BHP at the wheels in crossover testing (so no opportunity for bias) within minutes running as much as I could make it boost (not very much at all certainly under 1.4 bar) at 6000-7000 RPM by using 91% duty cycles. I believe I was choking the exhaust side of the turbo in trying to get it to hold boost. This is also the only plausible explanation to me as to why the first one let go.

Another car with a P20 housing on the same turbo had the same problems holding top end boost, despite 3" exhaust, wide bore inlet pipe, 3 port, Link, decent actuator.

I blame the ported wastegate as a bad idea on these turbos since you have to really fight with them to hold the boost. I gather that the P20 unported exhaust housings make the turbo into something entirely different and probably 400 BHP + capable.

I think the distinction should be drawn between a turbo which has some parts capable of running to 1.8 bar, and a complete unit being supplied which can do the same. In addition, a 1.8 bar claim should be made if the COMPLETE turbo is capable of making more power over 1.3 bar otherwise the extra 0.5 bar is a waste of intercooling and exhaust back pressure.

So in this case, I should have been explicit about my requirements and not just presume that the 0.5 bar headroom would all make more power on my turbo, even if the same compressor wheel in another turbo could do it!

I have never fought with a turbo so hard to make it hold boost, and the question continually came back to my ECU or mapping. Whilst I am not of the experience of say Bob Rawle at mapping, I have designed and built a functional electronic boost controller so know a few things or two about how to control boost!

The proof of the pudding was fitting a front entry TD05 which although it was said would be laggy and have a high boost threshold in fact has far less lag (0.5 seconds from atmo to 1.4 bar at 5000 RPM over several tests compared with 0.8 seconds for the MD304 - a few gear changes with that lag difference and you know what happens), 300 RPM earlier boost threshold (1 bar at 2700 RPM in 4th gear on my car), more midrange torque at the same boost, and equal top end to the MD304. Boost control with 0.5 bar standard actuator was easy, and it is a joy to work with in comparison. The car is much quicker overall in the midrange, matches what it did at the top previously. For a much lower price. Also the TD05 is much tougher and rebuildable unlike the VF cores which cost about three times the value of second hand TD05. I find it shocking that a standard Subaru turbo with a front entry can perform so well compared to what I now think is a totally over-rated hybrid (in the true sense of the phrase over-rated as well!) In my opinion the MD304 is well and truly blown out the water in all departments by a TD05. The TD05 also happens to outflow the VF22 with no more lag than a VF28. Who needs an expensive hybrid for the 350-370 BHP range?

The astonishing thing is that there is a turbo being developed that has 450 + BHP potential and it seems less lag than even an MD304, with similar boost threshold.

What I can say is that I will be more careful researching my turbos in future rather than getting the offering of the moment.

I have no issues with the supplier of my MD304 at all except that the product is bettered by a TD05. I don't think I can watch people buying a product for twice the cost which isn't as good though any more.

Andy.F

Well said John

FWIW even with the 90 degree entry on, the TD05 it can still make 350 bhp !!!

Pat You're probably correct 'IF' it was a VF or Garrett hybrid

[Edited by Andy.F - 1/21/2003 2:47:24 PM]