Motec M800 - Plug and Play...
18 January 2003, 03:53 PM
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Hi Trout 
What I am saying is that an M800 isnt plug and play, but simply an add-on ECU with lots of additional cost options that make it a very expensive choice.
What I am saying is that an M800 isnt plug and play, but simply an add-on ECU with lots of additional cost options that make it a very expensive choice.
18 January 2003, 04:15 PM
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Claudius,
..........so are you saying from a position of knowledge that there is no M800 plug-in that does not require a loom adapter.
There certainly are plug and play versions of other MoTeC ECUs - however MoTeC suppliers are like a secret coven who seem to want to keep the info to themselves.
Trout
PS And expensive compared to what? A Pectel? A Superchip? Or are you randomly reflecting a high price - or a comparitive analysis of ECU features?
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 4:17:06 PM]
..........so are you saying from a position of knowledge that there is no M800 plug-in that does not require a loom adapter.There certainly are plug and play versions of other MoTeC ECUs - however MoTeC suppliers are like a secret coven who seem to want to keep the info to themselves.
Trout
PS And expensive compared to what? A Pectel? A Superchip? Or are you randomly reflecting a high price - or a comparitive analysis of ECU features?
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 4:17:06 PM]
18 January 2003, 04:35 PM
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I think you misunderstood me, or vice versa. By plug and play, I meant in a Microsoft kind of way: unplu ECU, plug in new ECU, start car.
I understand the M800 needs to retain the OEM ECU for things like cold start, A/C, etc. In addition to that, you need to map it before you can drive with its map unlike other ECUs and specifically my preferred one, the Power FC.
Apart from costing more, I cannot see what benefit you would gain from an M800 over a Power FC. Can you or anybody else explain that to me?
[Edited by Claudius - 1/18/2003 4:36:11 PM]
I understand the M800 needs to retain the OEM ECU for things like cold start, A/C, etc. In addition to that, you need to map it before you can drive with its map unlike other ECUs and specifically my preferred one, the Power FC.
Apart from costing more, I cannot see what benefit you would gain from an M800 over a Power FC. Can you or anybody else explain that to me?
[Edited by Claudius - 1/18/2003 4:36:11 PM]
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18 January 2003, 04:48 PM
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I belive the M800 plugs in to a loom adapter and this plugs in to the loom. It is not a piggyback or similar device and is totally stand alone.
I have a gems board in my std ecu casing, i asume its a Group N rally drived item.
I have a gems board in my std ecu casing, i asume its a Group N rally drived item.
18 January 2003, 05:47 PM
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Claudius,
Power FC is a pretty standard mappable ECU.
MoTeC offers a lot more in terms of compensations...the M800 offers more than the other MoTeCs.
For an high state of tune the ability to control non-standard wastegate, compensation maps for many dimensions, e.g. inlet air temp, ambient temp, exhaust gas temp - all critical for both optimising high performance and protecting the engine on track or the drag strip.
It also has tailorable load points - so to refine a specific area of the map - say around peak boost or peak torque - very small refinements can be made to optimise performance - in increments of 0.25 deg advance - over pretty much as small a rev range you migth desire.
On top of that - if you really want to get excited - you can have individual cylinder trim - to say balance a temperature hot spot (for which Scoobs are famed) - or perhaps DIY traction control - advanced diagnostics - data logging.....need I go on even tho I have only scratched the surface....
Trout
Power FC is a pretty standard mappable ECU.
MoTeC offers a lot more in terms of compensations...the M800 offers more than the other MoTeCs.
For an high state of tune the ability to control non-standard wastegate, compensation maps for many dimensions, e.g. inlet air temp, ambient temp, exhaust gas temp - all critical for both optimising high performance and protecting the engine on track or the drag strip.
It also has tailorable load points - so to refine a specific area of the map - say around peak boost or peak torque - very small refinements can be made to optimise performance - in increments of 0.25 deg advance - over pretty much as small a rev range you migth desire.
On top of that - if you really want to get excited - you can have individual cylinder trim - to say balance a temperature hot spot (for which Scoobs are famed) - or perhaps DIY traction control - advanced diagnostics - data logging.....need I go on even tho I have only scratched the surface....
Trout
18 January 2003, 07:24 PM
#12
All of which the Autronic does, at a fraction of the price.
Even if you have all of this stuff to fiddle with, when and how are you going to do it?
Pat seems to advocate a new loom entirely, but i suspect your newer car will have fewer wiring problems.
Anything specific the Autronic doesn't do?
Paul
Even if you have all of this stuff to fiddle with, when and how are you going to do it?
Pat seems to advocate a new loom entirely, but i suspect your newer car will have fewer wiring problems.
Anything specific the Autronic doesn't do?
Paul
18 January 2003, 07:51 PM
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Personally I do not consider any piggy-back ECU or defencer or any such device as being capable of controlling a high performance engine, only a remap of the existing ECU or a complete replacement will be capable enough to run the engine optimally. I'de place the "well known" ECUs in the following sequence.... Possum Link, Autronic / GEMS / MoTeC M48Pro, MoTeC M800, Pectel T6 / Bosch Motronic MS3.1, Pectel T10S / Magneti Marelli Step9.
Of these the Possum Link provides the best "bang for buck" value, if the fundamentals of the engine remain unchanged (4 pot, 4 high impedance injectors etc), we've had cars up to 360 BHP on a Link. The Autronic / GEMS / MoTeC M48Pro are what I'de call entry level motorsport ECUs, excellent value for money, with additional features such as Antilag, launch control, traction control, with the ability to define the map coordinates etc. The Pectel T6 builds upon this featureset with additional goodies like four dimensional fuelling, variable valve timing, multiple calibrations and finer ignition timing control, detonation control etc; it was a T6 that powered the engine with the highest ever recorded power output for a Subaru engine in the UK public domain (there are more powerful ones, but they are more the stuff of legend rather than tangible specimens). The Bosch Motronic MS3.1 is a bit of an "oddball" but its map size is only limited by the amount of Flash memory present, it's been known for people to map at intervals as low as 3 RPM (about 3000 RPM sites, yes that would give you a map with around 9 million cells). The Pectel T10S extends functionality to a greater number of cylinders, fully active transmission control, up to 10 detionation control chanels, further improves ignition control down to 0.05 degrees at up to 20,000 RPM, while the Magnetic Marelli Step9 also includes active chassis control
As far as I was aware there were no M800 drop in boards for MY99-00 but there are some for MY01- of course I could be wrong There is always the Pectel S2 but a) you have to buy it from Prodrive, b) they won't sell it to you unless they put it into your Group N rally car and c) they won't let you have the mapping software anyway, but if it wasn't for these limitations I'de place it on par with the M800 drop in board.
Cheers,
Pat.
Of these the Possum Link provides the best "bang for buck" value, if the fundamentals of the engine remain unchanged (4 pot, 4 high impedance injectors etc), we've had cars up to 360 BHP on a Link. The Autronic / GEMS / MoTeC M48Pro are what I'de call entry level motorsport ECUs, excellent value for money, with additional features such as Antilag, launch control, traction control, with the ability to define the map coordinates etc. The Pectel T6 builds upon this featureset with additional goodies like four dimensional fuelling, variable valve timing, multiple calibrations and finer ignition timing control, detonation control etc; it was a T6 that powered the engine with the highest ever recorded power output for a Subaru engine in the UK public domain (there are more powerful ones, but they are more the stuff of legend rather than tangible specimens). The Bosch Motronic MS3.1 is a bit of an "oddball" but its map size is only limited by the amount of Flash memory present, it's been known for people to map at intervals as low as 3 RPM (about 3000 RPM sites, yes that would give you a map with around 9 million cells). The Pectel T10S extends functionality to a greater number of cylinders, fully active transmission control, up to 10 detionation control chanels, further improves ignition control down to 0.05 degrees at up to 20,000 RPM, while the Magnetic Marelli Step9 also includes active chassis control
As far as I was aware there were no M800 drop in boards for MY99-00 but there are some for MY01- of course I could be wrong
There is always the Pectel S2 but a) you have to buy it from Prodrive, b) they won't sell it to you unless they put it into your Group N rally car and c) they won't let you have the mapping software anyway, but if it wasn't for these limitations I'de place it on par with the M800 drop in board.Cheers,
Pat.
18 January 2003, 08:01 PM
#14
so pat, tell us again what the autronic doesn't do?
Haltech and EMS seem good on paper too, and well priced. Many of these companies started by ex Motec people i be;ieve
Haltech and EMS seem good on paper too, and well priced. Many of these companies started by ex Motec people i be;ieve
18 January 2003, 08:10 PM
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Claudius,
Power FC is a pretty standard mappable ECU.
MoTeC offers a lot more in terms of compensations...the M800 offers more than the other MoTeCs.
For an high state of tune the ability to control non-standard wastegate, compensation maps for many dimensions, e.g. inlet air temp, ambient temp, exhaust gas temp - all critical for both optimising high performance and protecting the engine on track or the drag strip.
Power FC is a pretty standard mappable ECU.
MoTeC offers a lot more in terms of compensations...the M800 offers more than the other MoTeCs.
For an high state of tune the ability to control non-standard wastegate, compensation maps for many dimensions, e.g. inlet air temp, ambient temp, exhaust gas temp - all critical for both optimising high performance and protecting the engine on track or the drag strip.
What's your point?
It also has tailorable load points - so to refine a specific area of the map - say around peak boost or peak torque - very small refinements can be made to optimise performance - in increments of 0.25 deg advance - over pretty much as small a rev range you migth desire.
18 January 2003, 08:27 PM
#16
PowerFC is standalone ecu, not a piggyback.
If only the mapping software was available, only the dealers get it, and even then, unless you go to a specific one in the UK, it's all in japanese.
paul
If only the mapping software was available, only the dealers get it, and even then, unless you go to a specific one in the UK, it's all in japanese.
paul
18 January 2003, 08:52 PM
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PowerFC is standalone ecu, not a piggyback.
If only the mapping software was available
unless you go to a specific one in the UK, it's all in japanese
18 January 2003, 09:28 PM
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If im not much mistaken, isnt there a yahoo group of Australian powerfc users who have either converted or written an english version of the software for the powerfc........
saying that it may have been English datalogging now i think about it...scuse me ill get my coat.
saying that it may have been English datalogging now i think about it...scuse me ill get my coat.
18 January 2003, 09:53 PM
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Claudius,
well it may be that the material is only available in japanese - it may be that the it is just not in the public domain in the UK - it may be that I simply haven't looked hard enough...
...but I cannot find a fraction of the functions available on the PowerFC that I see on an Autronic SMC2, or a MoTeC, or a Pectel.
As I understand it the PowerFC is a drop in board - or plug and play - as I understand - so where do I connect my EGT to, or multiple inlet, ambient and water temps. Because to do the things I describe you would need these.
And what about outputs - for controlling various output devices that the standard Scoob loom does not have?
As I say I may well be wrong - and the information is not available to me - but I can't see the Power FC having this capability...and these are only the basic features of the M800.
I am not saying the PowerFc is bad - personally I have used a LINK for nearly four years - I simply need to take a very big step forward in engine management. And I will certainly need more sophisticated tuning device than a handheld.
Pat,
the highest Link Scoob is Harveys I think at 417bhp.
Pavlo,
the Autoronic SMC2 is one of my options - the SMC drop in board for the Scoob lacks the additional inputs/outputs that I require - so I would still need a new loom. I would put it on a par with the M48 Pro.
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 10:08:46 PM]
well it may be that the material is only available in japanese - it may be that the it is just not in the public domain in the UK - it may be that I simply haven't looked hard enough...
...but I cannot find a fraction of the functions available on the PowerFC that I see on an Autronic SMC2, or a MoTeC, or a Pectel.
As I understand it the PowerFC is a drop in board - or plug and play - as I understand - so where do I connect my EGT to, or multiple inlet, ambient and water temps. Because to do the things I describe you would need these.
And what about outputs - for controlling various output devices that the standard Scoob loom does not have?
As I say I may well be wrong - and the information is not available to me - but I can't see the Power FC having this capability...and these are only the basic features of the M800.
I am not saying the PowerFc is bad - personally I have used a LINK for nearly four years - I simply need to take a very big step forward in engine management. And I will certainly need more sophisticated tuning device than a handheld.
Pat,
the highest Link Scoob is Harveys I think at 417bhp.
Pavlo,
the Autoronic SMC2 is one of my options - the SMC drop in board for the Scoob lacks the additional inputs/outputs that I require - so I would still need a new loom. I would put it on a par with the M48 Pro.
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 10:08:46 PM]
18 January 2003, 09:59 PM
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Shame the users have to do the support.
What would be magic would be a capable ECU that had:
4 bar absolute boost control with full PID/fuzzy, gear judge and customisable compensations based on whatever you want (see below), with facility for multiple channels for multi turbos or external wastegates
Accurate speed density
VVC
Fantastic idle capability - OEM class but adjustable
Multidimensional fully customisable maps with variable load sites and any selection of variables of each axis with customisable ADC (with thermocouple inputs), DAC, PWM and switch channels.
Size of maps only limited by vast memory and customisable to preference so not too big or too small
Plugs straight in with an adaptor and startup map for each model, so plug and play and portable.
Separate loom for custom control/extra actuators/sensors.
OEM class diagnostics
Direct wideband lambda
Per cylinder trim for fuel and timing
Facility for fully configurable per cylinder knock control
Multiple maps
Vast datalogging capability with retrospective logs for failures
Facility to run if/then/scripts to allow far more flexibility
User friendly editing software
Map checker to look for anomalies and warn : LOL...
"Are you sure you want a 50 degree step in ignition timing in this zone?"
"Are you sure you want to run 25:1 at 6000 RPM at 3 bar?"
Does such a thing exist? If so where do I pay and I bet it costs silly money. Oh well I can dream.
The thought of being able to write a script for your own customised immobiliser, or connect a WI pump driver direct with charge and EGT temp/per cylinder knock compensations which also adapts to water flow and tank level signals, and decide one day that I want to monitor fuel pressure and act intelligently in the case of failure would be incredible. Not impossible either, perhaps it just hasn't been done to this level or I need to investigate some real top end ECUs. Any technical info anyone care to share?
What would be magic would be a capable ECU that had:
4 bar absolute boost control with full PID/fuzzy, gear judge and customisable compensations based on whatever you want (see below), with facility for multiple channels for multi turbos or external wastegates
Accurate speed density
VVC
Fantastic idle capability - OEM class but adjustable
Multidimensional fully customisable maps with variable load sites and any selection of variables of each axis with customisable ADC (with thermocouple inputs), DAC, PWM and switch channels.
Size of maps only limited by vast memory and customisable to preference so not too big or too small
Plugs straight in with an adaptor and startup map for each model, so plug and play and portable.
Separate loom for custom control/extra actuators/sensors.
OEM class diagnostics
Direct wideband lambda
Per cylinder trim for fuel and timing
Facility for fully configurable per cylinder knock control
Multiple maps
Vast datalogging capability with retrospective logs for failures
Facility to run if/then/scripts to allow far more flexibility
User friendly editing software
Map checker to look for anomalies and warn : LOL...
"Are you sure you want a 50 degree step in ignition timing in this zone?"
"Are you sure you want to run 25:1 at 6000 RPM at 3 bar?"
Does such a thing exist? If so where do I pay and I bet it costs silly money. Oh well I can dream.
The thought of being able to write a script for your own customised immobiliser, or connect a WI pump driver direct with charge and EGT temp/per cylinder knock compensations which also adapts to water flow and tank level signals, and decide one day that I want to monitor fuel pressure and act intelligently in the case of failure would be incredible. Not impossible either, perhaps it just hasn't been done to this level or I need to investigate some real top end ECUs. Any technical info anyone care to share?
18 January 2003, 10:11 PM
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Trout,
the Power FC does basically everything you say but one or two.
I use a Camp for EGT, wideband AFR, ambient temp, oil temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure etc. I posted a thread about this system a few motnhs ago, but no one picked it up, as usual
Not saying the PowerFC is the best ECU, but it does all you need to run fine, at any boost with any turbo, any injectors, etc and be safe. And it has a display and is MUCH cheaper than equivalent alternatives.
John,
I believe an ECU like that exists; I havent looked into it because I couldnt afford it and because I suppose it would take weeks to map. But surely F1 and other sophisticated cars run on that type of ECU?
Later
Claudius
the Power FC does basically everything you say but one or two.
I use a Camp for EGT, wideband AFR, ambient temp, oil temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure etc. I posted a thread about this system a few motnhs ago, but no one picked it up, as usual
Not saying the PowerFC is the best ECU, but it does all you need to run fine, at any boost with any turbo, any injectors, etc and be safe. And it has a display and is MUCH cheaper than equivalent alternatives.
John,
I believe an ECU like that exists; I havent looked into it because I couldnt afford it and because I suppose it would take weeks to map. But surely F1 and other sophisticated cars run on that type of ECU?
Later
Claudius
18 January 2003, 10:12 PM
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John,
well there are one or two that have a close match to you list - and they are all at the expensive end of Pats list
Pavlo,
BTW - forgot to say in response to your comment - you can be sure I will not be mapping this on the road
Trout
well there are one or two that have a close match to you list - and they are all at the expensive end of Pats list
Pavlo,
BTW - forgot to say in response to your comment - you can be sure I will not be mapping this on the road
Trout
18 January 2003, 10:17 PM
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http://www.pectel.co.uk/products/pdfs/t10s.pdf
Drool.
Wait until I find out the price
PowerFC does sound quite good. Claudius can you link to your earlier info please?
Drool.
Wait until I find out the price
PowerFC does sound quite good. Claudius can you link to your earlier info please?
18 January 2003, 10:20 PM
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Claudius,
Quote - Are you assuming a PowerFC couldnt do any of that?
And now you are saying that well it does most things that the MoTeC can do - maybe not all. So yes I am assuming the PowerFC does not do all the things I want to do. As I say I am not saying it is bad - I am suggesting it does not meet my needs. It has a very good reputation in Japan
Also given that you thought the MoTeC was a piggyback - I have to take your comparitive analysis with a little caution
I will look further into the PowerFC - but I am not holding my hopes out.
Trout
Quote - Are you assuming a PowerFC couldnt do any of that?
And now you are saying that well it does most things that the MoTeC can do - maybe not all. So yes I am assuming the PowerFC does not do all the things I want to do. As I say I am not saying it is bad - I am suggesting it does not meet my needs. It has a very good reputation in Japan
Also given that you thought the MoTeC was a piggyback - I have to take your comparitive analysis with a little caution
I will look further into the PowerFC - but I am not holding my hopes out.
Trout
18 January 2003, 10:24 PM
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John,
also on the list....I see the T10 has a MOOG input - so I guess Rick Wakeman will have a couple
Make sure you are sitting down when you get the price - the T6 is around £2,500. T10s for lottery winners.
There is a baby Pectel but it has been discounted for what we need.
Trout
also on the list....I see the T10 has a MOOG input - so I guess Rick Wakeman will have a couple
Make sure you are sitting down when you get the price - the T6 is around £2,500. T10s for lottery winners.
There is a baby Pectel but it has been discounted for what we need.
Trout
18 January 2003, 10:32 PM
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M800 software is interesting to play with to see the possibilities. Doesn't seem quite as adjustable as I imagined, a lot of fairly low resolution maps for compensations if I am not mistaken. What do you think Trout - have you had a play? http://software.motec.com.au/release/
18 January 2003, 10:42 PM
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http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u12.html
These cost about £100 and I have one for my Delta Dash input from my DIY Australian Wideband.
This may sound rather daft but try me..... this little box or something based on it could do some quite clever control setups attached to a notebook PC, which could be small, cheap, ultimately reprogrammable and autosuspending and resuming with the ignition.
You could make an ECU do a lot of things by using one of these to manipulate the inputs to the ECU.... fancy piggyback on top of a more run of the mill ECU. Even just manipulating the MAP and MAF inputs with JECS you could trigger anything from full limp home to a mild compensation to suit the occasion. I am going to look into it, have done madder things before Certainly a MAP, charge temp and RPM input with a MAF output could probably convert JECS to accurate speed density with a stroke. There are some nice easy programming languages and DLLs available to control the labjack drivers.
Chiark after all does have a PC running Linux for his MP3s so I have to work on being at least as geeky as that
[Edited by john banks - 1/18/2003 10:52:15 PM]
These cost about £100 and I have one for my Delta Dash input from my DIY Australian Wideband.
This may sound rather daft but try me..... this little box or something based on it could do some quite clever control setups attached to a notebook PC, which could be small, cheap, ultimately reprogrammable and autosuspending and resuming with the ignition.
You could make an ECU do a lot of things by using one of these to manipulate the inputs to the ECU.... fancy piggyback on top of a more run of the mill ECU. Even just manipulating the MAP and MAF inputs with JECS you could trigger anything from full limp home to a mild compensation to suit the occasion. I am going to look into it, have done madder things before
Certainly a MAP, charge temp and RPM input with a MAF output could probably convert JECS to accurate speed density with a stroke. There are some nice easy programming languages and DLLs available to control the labjack drivers.Chiark after all does have a PC running Linux for his MP3s so I have to work on being at least as geeky as that
[Edited by john banks - 1/18/2003 10:52:15 PM]
18 January 2003, 10:55 PM
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John,
thanks for that - am downloading it now - should have thought of that earlier - DOH!
Trout
PS It won't run on my PC - Grrrrrrrr
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 11:11:59 PM]
thanks for that - am downloading it now - should have thought of that earlier - DOH!
Trout
PS It won't run on my PC - Grrrrrrrr
[Edited by Trout - 1/18/2003 11:11:59 PM]
18 January 2003, 11:08 PM
#30
Has anybody considered the new Omex 700 series. I had a good chat to the guys on the stand at the autosport show and was very impressed. Very good value too (the crank timing ring needs changing tho to a more normal 36 - 1). I think it's so new that it's not even on the web site yet.
Or what about the DTA fast stuff....
Maybe these are more at the lower end of what your looking at tho and would require a loom adaptor.
Tony.
Or what about the DTA fast stuff....
Maybe these are more at the lower end of what your looking at tho and would require a loom adaptor.
Tony.