LG John

John take a rain check! Look at your stats man, you have 280bhp at the wheels before this change! Are you not living on a knife-edge as it is?

BTW, this sounds brilliant! I can't help but feel cheated when I don't hit full boost in 2nd and 3rd gears [/b]

[Edited by Saxo Boy - 12/9/2002 10:08:04 PM]

john banks

2nd gear before and after - have scaled the graphs on both axes the same, conditions were similar... first one running at 1.3 bar in 5th, second one running 1.4 bar in 5th, both with only 0.05 bar overboost in 5th gear. The difference in 2nd gear is marked... AREA UNDER THE CURVE One bar at 3800 RPM compared with 4500 RPM in 2nd gear



[Edited by john banks - 12/9/2002 10:16:21 PM]

john banks

Courtesy of that very clever Mr Done, using a new method of boost control which compensates maximum duty cycle by acceleration (hence gear judging based boost control), I can get easily get the same boost profile in 2nd and 3rd that I used to get in 5th gear with any amount of overboost you want (or none - it is programmable) without affecting overboost in higher gears - in other words boost control dreams come true. HOWEVER, it is so torquey compared with before in 2nd and 3rd gear I am wondering about the relative strength of these gears compared with 4th and 5th - I gather 5th is quite strong. The effect is quite substantial of being able to effectively map the boost control for each gear rather than having a compromise that overboosts in 5th and just reaches target in 2nd (and that using a 3 port, 2 ports don't get anywhere near). Effectively the closed loop control is left to deal mainly with the temperature changes rather than trying to sort out the effects in all the different gears - much easier job for it with better control.

This method has previously fried a clutch in lower gears on another car. Does the clutch and gearbox have more trouble with the same torque in 2nd gear than 4th gear say? I want it to be fun for more than a few days....

ScoobyDuck

iTrader: (1)

so all the UNDER THE CURVE power is now much more !
well done SD & JB !

take it this is all still only on the ECUTEK systems John ?

Steve
(with a non ECUTEK-able broom-broom)

dowser

I've got an uprated clutch - send me a copy and I'll see if I can break my gearbox

Sounds good - is it all done within the map? If so, I guess Steve has been hacking the Subaru code - or was the feature always available but unused?

Richard
PS: How come you get all the beta stuff?

john banks

This was stuff from back in April that Steve previously told me about and I asked him for a copy the other day. Not sure it would suit every car though if it crunches things - it lasted one evening on his car.... seems to work well with a big turbo

Only works on Euro/UK cars, not STis as it uses some temperature comp maps from the STi which are unpopulated on the Euro/UK cars.

EvilBevel

John <drool>

I think my clutch & gears should cope now !

<drool>

So ...

<drool>

You think that ?...

<drool>

[]

Pete Croney

John

It shouldn't be too much of a problem as the lower gearing reduces the load on the cog teeth, through the reduced resistance to acceleration.

Imagine if the drivetrain were on a test rig and at the end of it were a slipping clutch. With low pressure on the clutch the rpm can increase quickly and there will be much less stress than when the pressure is increased and rpm climb slowly.

Then again, we are talking about Subaru gearboxes

The ECU routine sounds very neat

T-uk

john,

where do you get 1bar by in second and third and where does yyeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaa hhhhhhhhhhhhhaa arrive .

if you want to play it safe,call grade a,get a box and then mark for a clutch kit and store them here .

David_Wallis

or call mark for a box as well

EvilBevel

Just to clear up my previous post: I both have an AP clutch and the gear set that Mark kindly provided (and a lot more, valuable information about fitting it etc). It's been in there for 2000 miles now, going well, and I think it's ready for a good shakedown

Hence the question: this setup should be able to cope with the clever "EcuTek hack" I'd imagine ?

john banks

Theo, do you know how jealous I am right now ?

Steve is happy, so I am going to email all the gubbins to Mark EMS, Bob Rawle and Dowser tonight including my current map, please let me know how you get on with it

The boost threshold is slightly improved with more mapping - 3300 RPM for 1 bar in 3rd, about 3800 RPM for 1 bar in 2nd. However, it is the snap the throttle open response in 2nd and 3rd which is astonishing... imagine setting up your boost controller in these gears and how it would go, and being able to not worry about 5th gear overboosting You should come and have a shot T-uk before the gearbox and clutch say **** you

Thanks for the advice Pete

scoobeee

Sounds almost as good as a Dawes now !

john banks

It is way better than a Dawes You can profile the boost curve, retain safety features, hold boost to the nearest 0.2 PSI, better top end boost, earlier spool up in lower gears. It does need a 3 port and pretty intensive mapping (=expense) compared with fitting a Dawes and turning a screw.

scoobeee

I don't have a 99- but I'm interested as to how it spools up even earlier than with a dawes valve ? I thought a dawes valve held the wastegate closed until the boost set point is achieved ? how can the ecu hold it "more" closed ?

dowser

Thanks John - looks very good

Just need new headers now, mine broke recently...gearbox next then, lol You on commission from Mark?

scoobeee - the 3 port solenoid is similar to the Dawes in that it only bleeds air to wastegate when port is open. Spool up wont be so different, but the added flexibility and safety of the ecu controlled system (you can set whatever targets you want, so 1.5 bar midrange tailing down over 5k is easy...vf23's don't seem to like it though ) makes it very beneficial.

Richard

john banks

How did you break headers??

Scoobee, the Dawes doesn't eliminate wastegate creep entirely, it still has a proportional element of control as the ball starts to let air past. In addition, you have to dumb it down with a bleed hole which kills response a bit, or you pay the price with a car that is undriveable on part throttle. Also the Dawes still does have differences between the gears because of this proportional control and the fact that it is controlling using turbo outlet not manifold pressure. It is good, but a 3 port is better, and with this code, the 3 port gets pretty near to perfect.

Diesel

Not quite following, grrr! Does this imply that boost normally has to be kept lower in lower gears to prevent any overboost situation? Cheers, D.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Basically it sounds like its doing what an EBC will do, such as the HKS or Blitz?????

john banks

Diesel, yes most situations you end up with a compromise. Stevie I suppose it is, but this is rarely seen in a lot of ECUs, I have not tried the HKS EVCs which I gather do a very good job. The AVC-R has a gear judge. My experience of the Blitz DSBC was disappointing TBH - ECU control with 2 port was better.

Trout...

John,

but can you get around corners

Trout

scoobeee

I must be missing something here ?

How come one graph shows 0.2 bar at 3000 rpm and the other shows 0.4 bar at 3000 rpm ?

The wastegate actuator spring will have the wastegate firmly held closed at this pressure regardless of dawes or ecu or ebc

something doesn't add up ?????

john banks

Good point - not ideal I admit.. Was trying to dig out logs for an illustration, but I probably need to control the conditions better. Perhaps they were floored on the throttle at slightly different times... but both were WOT from the beginning of the log and I thought that since they were both at WOT well before peak boost it would not matter. Perhaps it makes more of a difference than I thought. Need some true back to back logs to compare... they were not on the same day. It is difficult to convince yourself to go back after a change to try the old one, so I tend to try and find old logs to compare. Perhaps I picked a bad example of before hand - to be fair 1 bar was at 4100 RPMish so it does look like it, but this is the only one I could find. It is quicker though You just need to drive it to see and it is blindingly obvious.

I really should have the graphs superimposed, and also at the same boost setting in 5th gear as well. I'll try harder next time

Good job I don't work for an OEM - I would get shot for that sort of distorted comparison, thankfully these are only for the titillation of Scoobynetters

[Edited by john banks - 12/9/2002 11:52:46 PM]

Turbo_Steve

====Looks at John Banks graph. Looks out of window at aged Legacy Turbo. Looks at graphs again. Goes to online banking. Starts to think that an MY00, plus hybrid turbo plus 3 port solenoid, plus water injection, plus exhaust, airfilter and a couple of days worth of johns mapping is.....

Way too expensive D'oh.============

It looks fantastic John. Must feel like the millenium falcon?

mutant_matt

Send the log files to me John, I'll do them for ya. I'm getting quite good at these comparison graphs after all the STi 7 comp charts

Matt

Andy Hobson

John,

Are there any plans to market the new map ? Sounds like it might be a bit mad for the standard TD04 and clutch though !

Andy.

JamesS

John,

Running the AVC-R, set it and ran it for a while.

As you say you can tweak profile based on gear; did so, about 2 days later re-set it! Definate death to gearbox!

It is large torque, delivered quickly, in the lower gears that will kill the transmission & driveline. This is mainly due to the greater torque multiplication in the lower gears and shock loadings induced from the tyre contact patch. You can get torque spikes in 1st / 2nd in the driveline 20 to 30 times that induced in 5th gear!!!!!! A less that perfect clutch engaugment can further increase this loading!

Its can also be the case of the box itself flexing that starts an `event`!

Thats without simply `torque-stripping` the gears themselves (bald 3rd gear anyone???)

john banks

Needs a lot of testing first.... I don't call my present map "Clutch1", "Cluth2" because it was the only name I could think of

R19KET

I would just like to say a BIG THANKYOU to Steve Done, John Banks, and all the rest of the guys pushing the limits.................of the clutches, and gearboxs

Rubs hands together gleefully, thinks it must be Christmas...........sh*t, so it is

Mark.

David_Wallis

I'd order some more gearsets...

I hope your not up this way for christmas.. collecting money

Mind you I could see you dressed up as santa..

Dont think santa smokes like you though

David