T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

PPP has certainly made the car more usable The performance wasn't gobsmacking but much improved power control Worth the £2K
I was at a rolling road day at Power Station today. There were quite a few STi7's with PPP Unfortunately if your into fiqures this wasn't a good day for PPP. claimed "on the Tin" 305ps(299bhp) & 300lbs of Torque

Before PPP 253 Bhp 240 Lbs (I modded my Xhorst B/box ) but both others got 262 bhp and 247 Lbs Torque.

Now PPP fitted mine got 287 bhp & 245Lbs Now is it worth it


The other PPP'd STi7's will have to post their own fiqures I should look out for the post will make interesting reading

Tony

russell hayward

280 BHP

232 ft/lbs torque

john banks

Powerstation seems to read about the lowest of the commonly used by Scoobies rolling roads in the UK, and has been known to read standard cars 10% below their quoted figures and also be naff on torque. Hence Theo's VF23 equipped car a while back was a good results, but this car would probably be about 310 BHP at PE is my guess. I had 200 at the wheels at PE well before I got 200 at Star

I would rate them in order from highest to lowest as follows:

Well Lane
John Noble
Power Engineering
Star
Powerstation

john banks

In addition, the way boost control works on standard and PPP ECUs on old and new cars with 2 port solenoids makes it susceptible to errors on the dyno which affect peak torque more than peak power. I won't bore you with the reasons why.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John,
Figures are only figures, I agree, but Std STi7's at Power stations have (bar mine due to worst DIY mod) have been 260-262 Bhp which is not far away As I said more drivable but never reckoned that the increase was the claimed 15%.
I wasn't concerned that my 287 bhp (near enought as Sh*t is to swearing) more the fact that there was no increase of Torque.

Are rolling roads only reliable for Bhp and but not Torque?

Tony

john banks

The problem with the torque is that the airflow/thermal/load characteristics on the rollers can mean that the "target boost" is not reached as easily as it is on the road. In fact on some cars if you map them to make target boost in 4th gear on the rollers will overboost ridiculously in top gear on the road. However, boost control is most susceptible to spiking in the midrange where the turbo is most efficient.

With the PPP the boost control is modified in three ways:

1. The exhaust
2. The restrictor change
3. The alteration to the MAP signal.

So for example, a car with a very free breathing exhaust, a smaller restrictor and only a moderate alteration to the MAP signal will have a smaller difference between held boost on the rollers compared with the road and more likely produce a good torque figure. It will also tend to reach target boost easily in lower gears and hot weather, but overboost like a pig on a cold track day in high gears.

If on the other hand the alteration to the MAP signal is relatively large compared to the other changes, then the boost will be more limited at lower loads, in lower gears, in hot weather and on a typical dyno, and the boost control will be less likely to reach target, the closed loop system will not work so well, there will be boost offsets even of held boost in different conditions and the torque may suffer on the dyno just because you sneezed However, it won't overboost in top gear on a cold trackday.

The 2 port solenoid seems most susceptible to all this kind of rubbish. The 3 port is better, but you still have to tolerate some overboost in frisky conditions to get good boost in lower gears on a hot dyno etc etc.

Outside the midrange the boost is usually less frisky even on a VF30/4/5. Because of this the mapper can be more generous with maximum permitted duty cycles because it is quite easy to "catch" the overboost. As a result, the power figure may suffer less than the torque figure.

These are just my opinions on the topic, but they are the best explanation I can come up with for results on cars I have mapped in addition to those done by others including Prodrive/Subaru/STi, and some aftermarket ECUs and boost controllers as well.

Boost control is a chaotic process, and having designed a closed loop boost controller I can tell you that it is not easy to get what might be described as perfect boost control in all conditions. It is actually quite a difficult process to harness really accurately from a control point of view. Boost anomalies are one of the big causes of unrepresentative rolling road results IMHO because of this.

GRANT

Had the Litchfield kit fitted at Powerstation back in January.
This was one of the first fitted and was using the S/S exhaust and only jets to control the spiking.The car produced 301bhp.
The cost is a lot less but the warranty is effected.

Have now added APS Induction,APS Blow off valve and APS SR40 turbo and a Dawes device to control the boost.

Would dearly like to compare drivabilty with a PPP'd car.

Grant

john banks

The Dawes will be less susceptible to the effects I describe.

I think the thing to check for the guys with the STi 7 PPPs is that the boost curve is correct ON THE ROAD from an accurate boost gauge. If this is the case then do not worry about your low rolling road torque figures.

For the guy that had 230 ish lbft and 280 bhp you must have had a completely flat torque curve from midrange to over 6400 RPM, certainly it could not bu upwardly convex to any great degree, because you still need about 230lbft at 6400 RPM to actually make 280 BHP, unless there was some temperature correction on the power but not the torque figure.

JKE

First of all thanks to everbody who came to Powerstaion on Sat,be it good news or bad news! will be posting powerouts for everyone as soon as Dave returns the prints to me,hes not happy, took prints home to compare. His car was 261bhp before ppp and 281 after,2k for 20bhp not a happy man!.Mine was 291bhp,still a bit down but i do think the car is alot more "useable" withh PPP than not,is it worth 2k? i think yes but only just

Justin.

LitchfieldImports

Would love to know what results everyone got, I was hoping to be there today but I was forced to make a very enjoyable trip to Twickenham

Iain

www.litchfieldimports.co.uk

EvilBevel

Gonna keep it short, but John said most already.

If you make 280-290 BHP at Powerstation, your car is going very well indeed. Don't immediately think something is terribly wrong.

I don't want to get into RR debates again, but I think we all agree that PS's rollers are not optimistic.

Would be nice to see a bunch of those cars now go to PE to see how much difference the RR's make.

My guess would be that 280 BHP would indeed be about 310 BHP at PE, making the PPP claim pretty well on the mark.

Torque peak is pretty much related to the "load" presented to the car, and most RR's just don't present enough load, or do it slowly so that intake temps get into silly numbers.

Next time, take a DeltaDash with you on the rollers so we can see what happens with the key data.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John,
Thanks for the reply, I just knew it was going to go over my head, Althought I do work in Factory PLC Programming, Pneumatics logic and PID control so understand where your comming from.

Evilbevel,
I took the only dash I had LOL Does the Delta dash record ECU's inputs and output?

A Sti7UK with a Miltek Xhorst For £700 got simular results without an ECU change as the £2K PPP'd STi7's

Tony

Again happier with PPP than without and my warrenty

russell hayward

John

Yes my torque curve is pretty flat as you describe.

As I said to a couple of people as well today, my car shows lower boost in 4th on the road than in 5/6th, so I'm not surprised comes in a little under the claimed figure.

My car was also at Prodrive on Tuesday, where it was fully logged and everything is working perfectly.I had a little too much boost in the higher gears so the restrcitor was changed. I think this has made the car feel a little quicker, but it's hard to know for sure.

My PPP STI7 has made exactly the same figures as my decat P1 did. On the road, the cars feel very similar performance wise. PPP should be 300, so assuming the extra 20bhp compensates for the weight, this stacks up. Not very scientific I know, but when someone asked me how the two cars comapared just after I had the PPP fitted, I said they felt similar. When you check the claimed performance figures, which I did shortly after, they are indeed very similar.

In conclusion, I am not really bothered what the figures say. I am more than happy with how the car drives, and happy with what I got for my money. Shame the backbox is so quiet though

[Edited by russell hayward - 11/16/2002 9:57:56 PM]

russell hayward

"A Sti7UK with a Miltek Xhorst For £700 got simular results without an ECU change as the £2K PPP'd STi7's"

Judging by the torque curve I looked at for that car, the PPP will feel quicker.

mikeesingh

iTrader: (3)

john, i got very similar result from powerstation & john nobles
i think Well Lane & PE are a bit optimistic
(i got 264 bhp at PE on a uk MY99 with just exaust and filter)
i would put them in this order:

Well Lane
Power Engineering
Star
John Noble
Powerstation

mikee

5 Type R

As others have mentioned it was a good day today a the Powerstation.
Good to put some cars and faces to the usernames etc etc

Managed to get 301bhp (233@wheels) and 277lbft so very happy.

Although I am sure that 230-240@wheels on other dynos would see far more flywheel power

t888-sti7

"A Sti7UK with a Miltek Xhorst For £700 got simular results without an ECU change as the £2K PPP'd STi7's"

Is everyone here referring to me?

t888-sti7

282bhp & 248lbs-ft.

Dave T-S

I won't comment on the RR figs/comments as it is well known I am not a fan of RR's or their wildly misleading results - it's out in the drivers seat where it matters....

One reason for posting though - Grant, you aren't far away and we've got some quiet roads up here - want to do a back to back in the interests of science?

NM

Hi

Just like to say thank you for a great day that was well organised.

DGM MY98 with Magnex Back box, STi5 centre, KNi induction kit and Blitz dual boost controller set to 14.5psi (13psi normal). Turned it down from 15.5 as I was after what I used on the road

Output was
240 BHP @ 6070 rpm
217 lbf torque @ 4020 rpm

I was well happy with the results as all the mods cost me less than £300 from the For Sale section of Scoobynet .....

Cheers

Neal

[Edited by NM - 11/17/2002 9:34:39 AM]

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John or Dave,

From what I can gather, Road testing with a Delta dash and laptop is the only accurate way to produce Bhp and Torque figures. Rolling Roads are only an aid for Techies during workshop mods.

Tony

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Neal,
Good to meet up with you guys even if I did get lost 3 times

Tony

Chod

Same situation as Neil, cheap upgrades, so very pleased with the Dawes setup.

UK MY97
ITG Panel Filter
Magnex Back Box and Magnex Decat centre
Forge VTA Dump Valve
Dawes Device set at 1bar (14.5 psi)

237.5 Bhp at 6150 rpm
224 lbf-ft Torque at 3830 rpm

Terry

scooby-k

MY99 with magnex resonater midsection and s/hand P1 back box. Got 238.5 bhp and 223 torque. 20 bhp for £200 well pleased. thanks for a great day. Neal brilliant drive back, 3 scoobies across all three lanes of M5 ...ken

mutant_matt

Tony,

DeltaDash doesn't (currently, AFAIK) produce Bhp or Torque figures - it just monitors what's going on in the ECU.....

Anybody with a standard STi 7, a PPP'd one and a Miltek'd one care to post up their dyno charts?

Ta,

Matt

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Matt,
I think JKE will be posting the Charts In the real world I took the car out and had some fun with a R1 and later with a M3 I won't be sending PPP back yet

Tony

t888-sti7

Way to go Tony!!!!

t888-sti7

I am only pleased to see that my exhaust has ironed out the ugly lag that was on the car before. I am sure that I am enjoying the car a lot more than before and I am sure that you feel the same way. It's not what you've got, it's how you use it to use a phrase.

Nezz10

267.5bhp, 234 lbs/ft

MY00 Full HKS exhaust, downpipe, air filter, link etc...

Not bad, but a run at PE show 270bhp and 260 lbs/ft torque. Just a slight difference!!

Great day though.

Nezz10

The Skyline R33 that was there and got 554bhp had hit 615bhp just the day before at a different rolling road.

Hmmmmmmmm.......