Trouts car is sick...
29 August 2002, 11:54 PM
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As some of you noticed I had a misfire problem.
Well car is wrapped up in a blanket with a thermometer sticking out of it's mouth.
Was on the RR today at PE - went for a power run in spite of weedy actuator - managed to get 305bhp.......on three cylinders
Seems to have blown an injector O-ring - of I don't know which one! And Subaru UK do not have any in stock and are waiting for them to arrive from Japan.
Likely to be O-ring as on idle it was showing 500ppm HC in the exhaust - lots of fuel - with no evidence of misfire - so plugs seem to be OK.
Also fueling is a bit sporadic - which I had put down to crappy plugs, changing the cambelt which produced a slightly different offset and a few other tweaks.
Ah well - 305 on three cylinders - just think what I could do with four
Trout
PS If anyone in the South has a set of Phase II injector O-rings that are genuine Subaru I'll bite yer arm off.
Well car is wrapped up in a blanket with a thermometer sticking out of it's mouth.
Was on the RR today at PE - went for a power run in spite of weedy actuator - managed to get 305bhp.......on three cylinders
Seems to have blown an injector O-ring - of I don't know which one! And Subaru UK do not have any in stock and are waiting for them to arrive from Japan.
Likely to be O-ring as on idle it was showing 500ppm HC in the exhaust - lots of fuel - with no evidence of misfire - so plugs seem to be OK.
Also fueling is a bit sporadic - which I had put down to crappy plugs, changing the cambelt which produced a slightly different offset and a few other tweaks.
Ah well - 305 on three cylinders - just think what I could do with four
Trout
PS If anyone in the South has a set of Phase II injector O-rings that are genuine Subaru I'll bite yer arm off.
30 August 2002, 12:08 AM
#2
You should be able to get a replacement from an O-ring supplier.
don't worry about genuine subaru crap, the most important thing is it's exactly the right cross section, close to the right diameter and of the right material. (I know you have had others with problems, but they were probably wrongly sized).
Speak to Blue Diamond in portsmouth, they are help full, and you might get it as a free sample in a day or too. If you can't measure it accurately (use a vernier). They should be able to spec you the correct O-ring based on the injector groove diameter and width, and the internal diameter of the bore in the manifold.
http://www.blue-diamond.co.uk/products/orings.html
They have supplied me with all the o-rings I ever used to keep electronics dry 1 mile deep in the oceans of the world.
Must go, wife has offered good time.
Paul
don't worry about genuine subaru crap, the most important thing is it's exactly the right cross section, close to the right diameter and of the right material. (I know you have had others with problems, but they were probably wrongly sized).
Speak to Blue Diamond in portsmouth, they are help full, and you might get it as a free sample in a day or too. If you can't measure it accurately (use a vernier). They should be able to spec you the correct O-ring based on the injector groove diameter and width, and the internal diameter of the bore in the manifold.
http://www.blue-diamond.co.uk/products/orings.html
They have supplied me with all the o-rings I ever used to keep electronics dry 1 mile deep in the oceans of the world.
Must go, wife has offered good time.
Paul
30 August 2002, 12:22 AM
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Pavlo,
advice appreciated - however I remain nervous as the o-rings that came with the injectors were identical in size to the Subaru ones - but they all leaked - obviously different resilience in the material - although it did not feel so in the hand.
Will try your recommendation if I don't get any joy.
Andy,
thanks - not at the wheels mate - PE reckon the highest they have seen at the wheels for a 2l Scoob is 260bhp
Need to get you down here to see what gives
Trout
advice appreciated - however I remain nervous as the o-rings that came with the injectors were identical in size to the Subaru ones - but they all leaked - obviously different resilience in the material - although it did not feel so in the hand.
Will try your recommendation if I don't get any joy.
Andy,
thanks - not at the wheels mate - PE reckon the highest they have seen at the wheels for a 2l Scoob is 260bhp
Need to get you down here to see what gives
Trout
30 August 2002, 12:24 AM
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PS The ATW figure was 230bhp - which compares with last run of 243bhp ATW on a day that was 20deg colder - so I am not unhappy as if the car can produce a figure so close with three cylinders then the other stuff is working OK
...........one day maybe
30 August 2002, 01:42 AM
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Are the Ph2 O-Rings different from early cars?? I fitted Ph2 fuel rails and injectors to my legacy, but cant even remember which o-rings I used. Either way, they worked?
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30 August 2002, 08:46 AM
#8
Trout,
O-rings are simple. But if they are a fraction too small they won't work, they rely on being compressed, did you actually measure the failed ones with a vernier gauge?
Depends how long you have to wait for geniune ones, but I would at least be prepared.
Paul
O-rings are simple. But if they are a fraction too small they won't work, they rely on being compressed, did you actually measure the failed ones with a vernier gauge?
Depends how long you have to wait for geniune ones, but I would at least be prepared.
Paul
30 August 2002, 09:16 AM
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Stevie,
the fitting is different. I believe the Phase I kits come with FOUR rings per injector - and who said Scoobs weren't overengineered!
Pavlo,
as I don't have a new original can't measure it with a Vernier - don't the used ones swell a lot.
Will see if I can get spec and a call Blue Diamond. Thanks for the tip.
Trout
the fitting is different. I believe the Phase I kits come with FOUR rings per injector - and who said Scoobs weren't overengineered!
Pavlo,
as I don't have a new original can't measure it with a Vernier - don't the used ones swell a lot.
Will see if I can get spec and a call Blue Diamond. Thanks for the tip.
Trout
30 August 2002, 09:44 AM
#10
Measuring the groove and fuel rail it possiby the best way, then you should get the right o-ring regardless.
If you specifiy temperature (less than 85'C which is fine for Nitril) and fluid (petrol of course) they should be able to give a material.
Also, they should cost about a few quid for a bag of 50.
Paul
If you specifiy temperature (less than 85'C which is fine for Nitril) and fluid (petrol of course) they should be able to give a material.
Also, they should cost about a few quid for a bag of 50.
Paul
30 August 2002, 10:22 AM
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Halfly off topic, or maybe not.
After remapping session drove home quite gently (170 km), get stuck behind truck, some Seat pushing in the back (wants me to drive through the truck ?).
Anyway, road clears and I decide to floor it (4th gear), and around 4500 RPM, *bang*. Lift off, look in mirror, and see a nice black cloud hanging behind car.
I assume this is a misfire as well ?
Given that fuelling at that point was 9 % CO, spark plugs are new (10.000 km, NGK7b), what could be the reason for this ? Car ran normally after that, even on full boost, so it looks like it was very intermittant. Could it possibly be battery related ? (3 years old now, 110.000 km). Fauled plugs I first thought, but given the mapping tests (rev to redline) I would have thought they would have cleared off.
Thanks for any pointers (even if it is O-rings
)
After remapping session drove home quite gently (170 km), get stuck behind truck, some Seat pushing in the back (wants me to drive through the truck ?).
Anyway, road clears and I decide to floor it (4th gear), and around 4500 RPM, *bang*. Lift off, look in mirror, and see a nice black cloud hanging behind car.
I assume this is a misfire as well ?
Given that fuelling at that point was 9 % CO, spark plugs are new (10.000 km, NGK7b), what could be the reason for this ? Car ran normally after that, even on full boost, so it looks like it was very intermittant. Could it possibly be battery related ? (3 years old now, 110.000 km). Fauled plugs I first thought, but given the mapping tests (rev to redline) I would have thought they would have cleared off.
Thanks for any pointers (even if it is O-rings
)
30 August 2002, 12:34 PM
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Sounds like an overboost cut, full throttle at 4500 after cruise is right in the 'zone' for this.
Not sure if you retain this with your current set up though ??
Not sure if you retain this with your current set up though ??
30 August 2002, 12:39 PM
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Andy, I thought about that, but the Unichip just clamps the MAP at exactly 14.7 psi. You can then set it up for a "safety" net if boost goes beyond a certain value.
Boost was something like 1.2 bar, I see 1.35 bar in winter, so I don't think it's that.
Was thinking electrical problem ... sometimes my intake temp gauge wacks to 250°'s & back in about a 10th of a second... dodgy connection somewhere I guess. Could this mess up the ignition ?
Boost was something like 1.2 bar, I see 1.35 bar in winter, so I don't think it's that.
Was thinking electrical problem ... sometimes my intake temp gauge wacks to 250°'s & back in about a 10th of a second... dodgy connection somewhere I guess. Could this mess up the ignition ?
30 August 2002, 12:56 PM
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Electrical sounds more likely 
That would explain the black cloud from the unburned fuel.
As you know, overboost is a fuel cut so less chance of the cloud however it does sometimes cause the carbon deposits in the exh to puff out the back.
That would explain the black cloud from the unburned fuel. As you know, overboost is a fuel cut so less chance of the cloud however it does sometimes cause the carbon deposits in the exh to puff out the back.
30 August 2002, 05:36 PM
#17
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David, be a bit wary measuring with a vernier, its extremely difficult to get an accurate reading without mounting and measuring with a graticle under a microscope.
If that was the problem its the small lower one that will be playing up, the larger upper one would leak to atmosphere.
The seals do "soften" and age with time, that coupled with the higher boost you are running, which has in turn pushed up the fuel pressure) could cause it to allow fuel to leak past although the pressure differential should remain the same unless you have uprated your fuel pressure with an adjuster. (one reason why I don't like FSE rising rate regs)
If you really get stuck then I have a few seals around but they are not new ones.
Phase 1 injectors have three seals in them plus one backing ring and are more resilient to higher pressures because of that.
If that was the problem its the small lower one that will be playing up, the larger upper one would leak to atmosphere.
The seals do "soften" and age with time, that coupled with the higher boost you are running, which has in turn pushed up the fuel pressure) could cause it to allow fuel to leak past although the pressure differential should remain the same unless you have uprated your fuel pressure with an adjuster. (one reason why I don't like FSE rising rate regs)
If you really get stuck then I have a few seals around but they are not new ones.
Phase 1 injectors have three seals in them plus one backing ring and are more resilient to higher pressures because of that.
30 August 2002, 05:48 PM
#18
Stanard o-rings are rated to 100bar without backing rings. If sized, lubricated and fitted properly, I doubt 6 bar is going to be an issue.
If they are too large in overall diameter, so they bunch up when fitted if might cause a problem. Not sure what petrol does to them, but the additives in some SUL might knacker 'em. Viton coated ones are probably the way to go.
Measuring with a verier isn't going to be great, but you use the wide part of the jaws you should get a good idea. And as they come in a number of pre-determined standard sizes (bound to be metric) it should be possibly to figure it.
Measuring the grooves and the cylinder/bore it goes in will be the best route.
Paul
If they are too large in overall diameter, so they bunch up when fitted if might cause a problem. Not sure what petrol does to them, but the additives in some SUL might knacker 'em. Viton coated ones are probably the way to go.
Measuring with a verier isn't going to be great, but you use the wide part of the jaws you should get a good idea. And as they come in a number of pre-determined standard sizes (bound to be metric) it should be possibly to figure it.
Measuring the grooves and the cylinder/bore it goes in will be the best route.
Paul
30 August 2002, 10:08 PM
#19
Ecu Specialist
Pavlo, agreed but whatever they are rated to I have come across them leaking, if a seal is on the edge of going then uprating the fuel pressure will push it over, sounds as though your past experience is similar to mine when it comes to seal technology. They do soften and swell with time, std ISO sizes are what you mean ... hopefully Subaru chose one. Just compared a new lower seal with a used one, about 5% growth on the used one ... significant but not normally an issue as when its fitted new it should be the right size.
General comment to anyone doing this, when fitting make sure that you don't "roll" the seal over as it goes in so its got a twist in it and, as Pavlo mentions, make sure its very well lubed, I always fit then refit the injector, it always goes in with the seals correctly orientated the second time.
cheers
General comment to anyone doing this, when fitting make sure that you don't "roll" the seal over as it goes in so its got a twist in it and, as Pavlo mentions, make sure its very well lubed, I always fit then refit the injector, it always goes in with the seals correctly orientated the second time.
cheers
31 August 2002, 01:22 AM
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Well took the seals out - they all looked immaculate - refitted the old ones for now - new Subaru ones coming next week.
Spent four hours going to engineering companies in North London on an O-ring search - nothing even close - even one place that had hundreds of sizes - just for injectors!
On the final call - we went to a MotorCycle shop and they said that a lot of custom o-rings are made to order by taking a roll of the appropriate material - cutting it to length with a razor blade and sealing the ends with precision superglue.
Well - we didn't believe - we selected a ring size just very slightly larger - made some up and yes they looked and behaved just like o-rings - when pulled the joint maintianed integrity - amazing.
Downside was - even though it was only a tiny bit bigger it would not seat in the rail - so back to the originals.
Car is running better - but not as sweetly as it should - so tomorrow - sparks to be regapped - all the ignition circuit connections will be stripped and cleaned and reset - hopefully that will cure it.
Current thought is if that does not fix it - then igniter block - do they go off after a while? HT leads?
Current thinking is that is not leaking fuel - although that may have contributed...
...problem is that car has had a couple of changes recently - all of which have impacted the benahviour - new cam belt - with an offset that was slighlty (couple of degrees...) different to the one that came off, new plugs and new turbo...
...lots of things to try and eliminate.
Maybe it has just had enough of my bodgy tuning
Trout
Spent four hours going to engineering companies in North London on an O-ring search - nothing even close - even one place that had hundreds of sizes - just for injectors!
On the final call - we went to a MotorCycle shop and they said that a lot of custom o-rings are made to order by taking a roll of the appropriate material - cutting it to length with a razor blade and sealing the ends with precision superglue.
Well - we didn't believe - we selected a ring size just very slightly larger - made some up and yes they looked and behaved just like o-rings - when pulled the joint maintianed integrity - amazing.
Downside was - even though it was only a tiny bit bigger it would not seat in the rail - so back to the originals.
Car is running better - but not as sweetly as it should - so tomorrow - sparks to be regapped - all the ignition circuit connections will be stripped and cleaned and reset - hopefully that will cure it.
Current thought is if that does not fix it - then igniter block - do they go off after a while? HT leads?
Current thinking is that is not leaking fuel - although that may have contributed...
...problem is that car has had a couple of changes recently - all of which have impacted the benahviour - new cam belt - with an offset that was slighlty (couple of degrees...) different to the one that came off, new plugs and new turbo...
...lots of things to try and eliminate.
Maybe it has just had enough of my bodgy tuning
Trout
31 August 2002, 01:41 AM
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Cambelt.... couple of degrees out
one pulley a tooth out??? worth checking yourself!
Ask mark!!
David
one pulley a tooth out??? worth checking yourself!
Ask mark!!
David
31 August 2002, 09:00 AM
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David,
the belt that was on there already had an offset - then the crank was at TDC the cams were about 10 deg out - and we know that with a timing light on it there is a ten degree offset - pretty standard on STis methinks.
When we put the new belt on the offset seemed to change by a couple of degrees - however the total offset was 'half a tooth'.
So the deal was take it half a tooth either way - so we went with the same offset that it had to start with - but with slightly less worn belt it changed a couple of degrees.
Trout
the belt that was on there already had an offset - then the crank was at TDC the cams were about 10 deg out - and we know that with a timing light on it there is a ten degree offset - pretty standard on STis methinks.
When we put the new belt on the offset seemed to change by a couple of degrees - however the total offset was 'half a tooth'
.So the deal was take it half a tooth either way - so we went with the same offset that it had to start with - but with slightly less worn belt it changed a couple of degrees.
Trout
31 August 2002, 09:03 AM
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Another thought.
At PE - on boost when it was not firing on all four - the CO was around 7-7.5% about right methinks.
At idle after a run - the HCs were 500ppm, slowly dropping to 400ppm. Mervs view was too much unburnt fuel - however this could have been a red herring...
...too much fuel can come from too much fuel or poor spark.
Any thoughts anyone...
...and if you hadn't guessed as it is Rigid Two Axle Vehicle it does not need and therefore does not use Cats.
Trout
At PE - on boost when it was not firing on all four - the CO was around 7-7.5% about right methinks.
At idle after a run - the HCs were 500ppm, slowly dropping to 400ppm. Mervs view was too much unburnt fuel - however this could have been a red herring...
...too much fuel can come from too much fuel or poor spark.
Any thoughts anyone...
...and if you hadn't guessed as it is Rigid Two Axle Vehicle it does not need and therefore does not use Cats.
Trout
31 August 2002, 05:43 PM
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Well - plugs regapped - injector plugs cleaned - you name it - it has been done...
...car seems to be working now - well it is fine up to 1.7bar - but will need to take it for a proper blast before the final judgement.
Thanks for all your comments
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 8/31/2002 5:49:47 PM]
...car seems to be working now - well it is fine up to 1.7bar
- but will need to take it for a proper blast before the final judgement.Thanks for all your comments
Trout
[Edited by Trout - 8/31/2002 5:49:47 PM]
31 August 2002, 06:03 PM
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While on the subject of cam timing ( a bit anyway ) Has anyone experimented with vernier pulleys to alter cam timing, or does anyone actually know what the cam timing is supposed to be, and how accurate the std setup is??
