EvilBevel

Right ... having 2 left hands I left the car with the dealer to fit the FMIC and dropped it off last Sat.

Alarming phonecalls followed monday afternoon ... the radiator would not fit at all... the bottom mounts were about 7 cm off where they should have been, and the outgoing tube fooled the engine block ...

So parts were sent off to a guy who could do aluminium welding, to make an aluminium rail for the mounts to make it fit, and to cut off the tube & put on another shorter one ...

Parts came back today, and with a lot of wriggling the FMIC/rad finally fitted. Had to remove brake support bracket (MRT) as that was in the way of the turbo/FMIC pipe.

GGR/MacsPower K&N kit was impossible to fit, so now there is a temporary solution in with a standard K&Ni and another MAF housing... turbo to FMIC piping didn't fit either, but some Samco hosing for an STi7 made things work again.

All in all, not very pleased with how things were "fitting in". Some bending here, removing bonnet grill blanking plate & cutting off bolts, etc etc... but in the end: result.

First drive showed the following:

1. FMIC works, normally showing 2 to 3°C above ambient at cruise, maximum 15° above ambient during heavy duty (outside temp was 25°).
2. Oil temps slightly higher, but nothing alarming
3. No time for DeltaDash yet, so not been able to monitor water temps ... suspect they would read a bit higher as well
4. Fuelling, despite MAF /K&N was pretty much OK at high load, seems a little lean at lower loads/part throttle
5. Even the standard recirc dumpvalve makes a hell of a noise now ...
6. There *IS* a bit more lag, but nothing really annoying.
7. Peak boost did not change (Unichip/Dastek controller), but boost seems to be held longer at higher RPM
8. Near 6.000 RPM (and this puzzles me) the car was clearly detting both Knocklink & dealer who was a passenger shouted "KNOCK"

So off for a remap tomorrow (hopefully), maybe dump Unichip & go Ecutek if there is time.

Question 1: does it make sense that with much lower intake temps & sufficient fuelling, the car dets at higher RPM ? Would it be possible that the ignition advance is a bit too agressive ?

Question 2: the fact that the kit didn't exactly fit, so it will cost me quite some cash ... do I have any right to take this up with Pace ? I'm not slagging them, mind, just wasn't expecting this to be such a hassle, expecially after being promised a delivery for June 14, not hearing from them for 2 months despite lots of emails, and then suddenly last week, a rather large packet showing up on my doorstep
And no, the dealer was not fobbing me off, he showed me exactly what the problems were. And according to him, there were no changes to the chassis/subframe (or where ever it is attached to) between MY98 and MY99

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy so far with the kit once fitted, but just expected better service & better fitting.

Moles Dad

EvilBevel, I too had a wee bit of drama with things fitting, to be honest I put it down to the fact that the kit was very new and that it had only just been released.

The only real problem was the air filter...I lost my head in the end (about 11pm and -3deg) and panel beat it into position

The rad and the ic fitted straight in, but... the rad didnt have any connection points for the bottom connection to the car.
It did have two 6 or 8mm threaded sockets on the bottom, but nowt to connect it to!

The silicone hose bits that connect the 'hard' pipes did not have the correct size clips...what a f*****g nightmare!

I have now 'fine tuned' the installation by reducing the lenghth of some of the hard pipes so that they 'sit' in the right place and dont touch.

All in all I too am pleased with what I have achieved with the ic and a standard turbo etc.

I e-mailed Pace a few times over this, really so that future customers could benefit from my learning I only got a couple of rather dismissive replies along the lines of 'sorry just an oversight' !!!

Hope you dont get too much of a sting re the installation costs, and I hope you enjoy it too

Try Pace, they might entertain it!

Cheers for now, MD.

john banks

Boost being held longer at high RPM = hitting points on the original and unichip map that it possibly wasn't mapped for. More boost per se will retard the knock threshold. Cooler charge will advance it - which one is most signficant will make the difference as to which way the knock threshold moves. In addition your static duty cycles will be effectively using a closed loop system (the wastegate) with the compressor outlet pressure as the input. The significance is that the potentially lower pressure drop across the intercooler will lead to your higher manifold pressure. The standard ignition maps (which I believe the Unichip modifies but I may be wrong?) are way too advanced at 6000 RPM for high boost applications on some cars and you may be hitting areas in the bottom right of the map with silly numbers.

I heard a rule of thumb - 1 degree retard per 5 degrees increase in charge temp AND 1 degree retard per extra PSI boost (say 1.5 degrees per 0.1 bar). Seems to be a useful starter on the Scooby.

Hope this helps even though some of it is undoubtedly a bit over-simplified.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Have to say, similar story when fiting it to a legacy, although obviously it wasnt designed for a legacy.
Tha rad did fit in fairly well, bit the IC was quite tight, and new mounting holes were required on the front panel.
The main Alu pipe fron IC to TB also had to be modified. Like you the kit came with the wrong ( and cheap )sized hose clips, which all things considered, is a bloody joke.
The IC could alos be about 25-30mm taller, if it was being made for a legacy, then the bottom of teh IC could locate into the fixing holes its meant to. The kit did not have a top radiator hose either.
Despite these f**k ups, It ended up reasonably neat, and seems to perform fairly well. Air temps on the road usually are mid 20's ( ambient low 10's, sometimes less. I have rarely seen the air temps over 30 degC, even running 1.7bar.
ALthough a bit of hassle, its still cheaper than any other kit, and you do get a radiator too.

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

I had problems with the pace kit also - the garage had to make custom brackets to mount the fmic/radiator, as the ones supplied did not like my sti iv type-r. The uprated rad had the wrong connectors, and is only single speed, so the hispeed/lospeed cables were forged together and connected to the fans. Was a few other things as well.

few tips..

1. Check to make sure the screws from the (facing car from front) left vent are not rubbing against the alu pipe. Mine started to do this, so I just removed the screw.

2. If you are going to fit the hks headers, you will need to remove the rad, and reduce the depth of the bottom of the rad (facing the car from the front) bottom left , by about half an inch.

I only just found this out, as it has been rubbing (the garage did notice it, and placed some silicon hosing inbetween, but went straight through it, and started rubbing the rad down).

3. check the underneath of the pipe that (facing from the front of the car) is on the right hand side. About in the middle of it, check, as it has a tendancy to rub.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

All these problems, probably make it sounds really ****. Still, I cant imagine many of the others being much better, having to remove bumpers, and install more pipes than an oil refinery. The pipe routes on some of the others, border on ridiculous IMHO.

Bob Rawle

Watch out for the coolant temps, they can go sky high with the fans on most of the time in some cases, detting is probably down to the mixture being lean ... denser air and all that so be cautious until its remapped.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Even at Elvington, doing drag runs, on a quite hot day, coolant temps were staying in the 80's, and air temps did get into the 40's
Normal use doesnt see the fans on an excessive amount?

Question re temps. The std thermostat is 78degC ( correct me if there are variations on that )
Even with the std subaru rad, the water temps were always mid 80's, as with the Pace. Are there cooler thermostats available, and why do the temps run so much higher than the stat suggests? I would like to see the temps closer to low 70's ( for max power , and not the cheesy magazine )

Trout...

Don't have a PACE - fitted an HKS front-mount - yes you have to cut the bumper - yes the car looks like Grangemouth on a good day - but it all fitted as described.

Water temps went up by an average 6deg C - however cutting away all the Number Plate gubbins reduced the tmeps to what they were before and greatly increased the efficiency of the FMIC so getting value for money - thought it was a good kit for a grand.

Trout

Claudius

That PACE FMIC kit doesnt sound like a thouroughly thought through thing.

Why dont you get a proper ECU for £800 instead of spending £1000 on that kit??



[Edited by Claudius - 8/29/2002 2:34:34 AM]

harvey

iTrader: (48)

APS FMIC took 6hrs to fit with no particular problems.
H2O Temp=82-86 cent on the move. Fans in at 94 cent and only in standing traffic on warm days. Now running ambient +1 or 2 cent in cruise to 95mph+. Max of 10 or 12cent over amb withprolonged hard track use.

EvilBevel

Thanks for the replies.

MD, sounds like a similar experience. I thought it was because the kit was first produced on a certain 22B, but DocJock who has a MY97 didn't have the fitting problems we saw. Very strange... some spec sheets getting mixed up ?

It was indeed the bottom sockets that were out of whack, and my dealer didn't want to just leave the rad "hanging", especially with the fans that close to the block (couple of mm?), hence the custom rail.

John, yes, Unichip alters standard ignition map by using + or minus values in an RPM/Load map. Mark already mailed me that he thinks boost tails off later and is indeed hitting previously un-explored areas of the JECS Still, I would think the same would happen on a cold day (fixed DC means higher peaks/higher held boost in winter), and the car had never detted before, not even on track. DeltaDash will make it a bit easier than before to see what's happening, remap planned for this afternoon.

Stevie, I seem to have the same thing at the bottom of the IC, about 2 cm of space left on both sides. Should put some ducting there as lots of air will try to escape that way. Also thinking of lagging the return pipe as it goes over the turbo. Also agree on final result ... not put up my experiences to complain, but to warn other potential customers there is more than meets the eye in terms of fitting work needing to be done, something I previously didn't read on here. Was a frustrating job for the mechanic, as each time something seemed to fit, he had to take a few steps back, send parts off etc, put pressure on the welder (he was very busy), starting/stopping his work, finding a replacement induction kit that would fit... They also contacted another guy in Holland who had the Pace on his MY99, and he had had similar problems.

Christian, thanks for the tips... dealer took great care to see no rubbing was left (with some kind of white paint (?) when closing bonnet etc), but as the engine moves/rocks it may still be the case. Indeed noticed that rad is pretty close to my exhaust manifold, wondering if I should get some more isolation there ? Heat shields are still on mind, but it just doesn't look ideal.

Bob thanks, yeah, I'll be careful, the Knock link light is something I take very serious, and until Mark has had a look, I'm not going to drive the car hard at all. Could be fuelling in the end, hard to keep an eye on all the meters all the time, and I didn't want to reproduce it as I can't change a damn thing anyway

Trout, bumper cutting in hindsight would have been a minor issue, but I really wanted to keep the airco (black car ...) and I'm not sure that this is possible with HKS or APS (correct me if I'm wrong). Oh, and looking at your pic reminds me ... we even had to move the horn, no space for it

Claudius ... I'd say the thinking behind it (comes with uprated rad/fans) is quite good, but production is not. As for the ECU comment ... I just happen to think that buying the FMIC at this stage is a better "investment" for my car, a logical step, both power and safety wise, than changing to another ECU. I'm not after major BHP, just want a reliable/consistent 300-ish BHP. If your Evo had a topmount instead of a fairly good FMIC, you might even do the same... The only reason I would go for a Link/GEMS etc would be to get rid of the MAF (now called AWTH*)

Off to buy some numberplate stickers

*Accident Waiting To Happen

Adam M

theo you are wrong!

you can keep aircon with the aps and hks. you noly have to cut the bumper.

I was not willign to do that on the 22B at £4500 a shot, but its not so bad on the normal car as bumpers are closer to £200.

Its odd as under the bonnet the 22B is no different from any other my 97/98 impreza to look at in terms of layout etc. I do wonder what changes they made for the <97 kit and the 99/00 mys.

The double speed fan issue didnt upset me at all, each new fan is capable of flowing much more air than both old fans put together, and at high speed all the time it makes them work very well indeed.

I did have to cut down the screw from the offside bonnet vent and also had to fusge the filter, but it was so bad. In the end I used an aps cold air induction kit as this made the filter much neater, would recommend this if you can source it, although changing the element is a bit of a pig.

Pavlo

I was thinking of getting an EVO 6 intercooler (£300+vat) and doing a diy FMIC, hey, sounds familiar...

Anyway, do all these non-Pace kits run the piping through the drivers side wing? And around the rad on the passenger side?

Paul

Trout...

Dear All,

the only thing I had to move with the HKS Kit was a bit of the bumper - some cutting required - but front bumper was buggered anyway (as you can from pic)

Horn, brakes, brake bracket - everything is still where it was.

Moving the number plate was my idea to improve efficiency. Also you don't NEED to cutaway that much of the bumper - but as I paid for it - I wanted all of it to be exposed to the air - wanted to ensure complete value for money

Trout

Claudius

Evilbaby

you could run a MAP sensor with a Power FC ECU as well. I dont think ALS would do your turbo any good.

I wonder how good this kit is with the metal pipes running in hot temp areas in the engine bay. You mentioned lag, how would you describe it?

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

You put your foot down and wait for the engine to come to life, thats how i describe lag

Sorry Claudius, just had to do that one, it was too easy.

You wont have any lag though if you got the NOS sorted, especially on the missus Ka.

Mo

With the speed of the air being pushed through the system I wouldn't have thought this an issue.

Andy.F

But you could apply that logic to the cooling core

Adam M

pipes are ally, which radiates very well, with replenished airstream going past before core, it doesnt matter if it heats a little, it just gives up more in core.

Return path back to inlet manifold goes over turbo though, so a heat reflective blanket wont hurt.

Andy.F

Adam I think you will find that 'ally' radiates in a very similar way to any metal, what alluminium does do better that most is conduct heat, this leads to loss due to conduction and convection.

MorayMackenzie

The pipework very quickly heatsoaks when you stop... which is a pain.

Claudius

What if you stop or drive slowly and then have the air stuck in hot pipes and having heated up? You will get high intake temp, not good Not saying you wont with other pipes, but less I would have guessed?

EvilBevel

Right, update ...

Claudette, the lag ... I have to eat my words already ... we just did the remap, turned out there were some serious lean spots due to changing to the K&N 57i ... apart from the "Stephen Done Curve" low down ("they all do that sir"), it was also very lean in 3000-4000 RPM areas, and then again higher up, both on full throttle and on part throttle. We didn't change the ignition much, but mainly worked on the fuelling - so Bob was right. It's not always easy to see "spots" on an AFR whilst driving. The DeltaDash is such a handy unit for this ... do a few runs from 1500 RPM to 7000 RPM, analyze log, set target AFR, correct, job done. Very impressive if you ask me.

We again went for 0.9v for most of the map (full load), call me a wuss, but I feel better that way

After the remap, I can not say there is noticable lag (well, more than before I mean), but as always this is interpretation... in gear times from low down would probably tell you more.

We temporarily did the corrections on the Unichip waiting for my system to be more or less "complete" (intake mainly) and then try a EcuTek on it / dump the Unichip.

Also looking into more sturdy MAF sensor setup (other brand, no more Bosch).

I'm pretty sure the ally pipe above the turbo is less than optimal, and you *do* have heatsoak whilst being stationary for a long time (fumble with laptop etc...) up to 20°s over ambient. Still a lot less than with the TMIC, but enough to indeed convince me I need some wrapping/reflective shielding there. Intake temp sensor is just behind that area BTW. Mind you, drive away about 200 meters and it is gone. Still, indeed a pain.

Need to sort the intake/cooling, as now it is far from ideal.

We also checked a MY98 and compared them to my MY99 ... there is indeed a difference on the distributor "housing" (the black round cap, on left side of engine when standing in front of the car, is a lot bigger on a MY99), hence the rad pipe not fitting correctly.

Oh, and my God, Unichip software is such a pain LOL We used the EcuTek software to analyse knock & lambda values, nice colours Then splash into good old DOS, yes we have a lambda sensor, no we don't want to save the map for the 4th time ... pfwieett... what a mess

Trout...

Theo,

I have been pondering about reflective shielding or something on mine - but there is a conundrum. For short periods I suspect it would work very well. But if heat soak occured over a longer period then any lagging would prevent the heat getting out again once on the move.

I am almost tempted to put a water spray or something on to it to cool it - say for sprints and drags.

Any thoughts anyone?

Trout

Pavlo

A reflector will at least half the radiated heat. At standstill radiated heat probably accounts for about half the heat lost by the exhaust parts.

Lagging the top of the downpipe would be a start.

Lagging the intercooler hoses with a single layer of decent (ie thick) wrap would also work well, especially if finished with some shiney foil tape to help reflectivity.

With moderate speed, the intercooler pipes would be affected a little more by the convected heat blown off the engine and rad, so lagging the hoses would be a help here too.

Worth pointing out that the black/silver thing only really applies to radiated heat from very hot objects, like the sun, as it is dependant on the wavelength of the infared waves. For hot parts on earth, the surface finish, gloss/matt will have the biggest effect. So very shiney black foil tape would work too.

Silicon pipes not such a bad idea after all.

Paul

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

And obviously the next efficiency, heat radiation type bit is..... Why is no-one painting their Intercooler cores ( FMIC mostly ) matt black?? Surely this would help the efficiency of them, by being able to radiate the heat better??

Claudius

In the end, your heat issues dont sound that bad, Evel.

What about some water spray on the IC with a nozzle on the hottest pipe?

What do you mean 0,9v? Surely not a lambda reading? That would be too lean.

EvilBevel

Yes, lambda... Puzzled now ... shirley lots of people on here would call that way too rich even ?

David_Wallis

distributor?? what fooking car have you got... its is distributorless ignition on all impreza's

David