MY99 ECU and VF hybrid - ignition
14 August 2002, 09:40 PM
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Approx 4 degrees ignition timing needed to be removed from the AE801 with a VF hybrid running 20 PSI held boost on my car with full decat, manifold and uprated TMIC to stop it detting. This is during a warm but wet evening, running bog standard fuelling.
It takes a while to get the heatsoak with hard road driving, and the first area to poke through with detonation is about 5000 RPM snapping open the throttle. Eventually with standard AE801 tunubg you get blips of detonation from 4500 to 6500. With the sort of timing the Prodrive ECU uses it is even worse. Sadly on my car the ECU misses the lot and it just detonates - only very occasionally audible but the knocklink picks it up.
Ideally I would love to run it about one AFR point leaner too.
But without a FMIC and/or WI something will have to give. For the track it is going to end up being turned down 2 PSI, left super rich and retarded a bit more.
Just a bit surprised how low the limit is, but it is clearly the heatsoak, could get 30 degrees above ambient throttle body temperatures on the road earlier
It might be that the sweet spot for good fuelling and ignition with this setup is actually turning the boost down a bit, whilst unfashionable looks to be the way things are going.
I suppose this should come as a little warning to those running big turbos at silly boost on standard ECUs - especially in this hot weather - forecast is 29C for the South of England tomorrow.
Those with WI - how many degrees did you get back
?
Also trying to compare ignition timing between JECS and Link - I am wondering if the entries in the maps have the same offset? I have seen a few 20 ish PSI Link VF turbo maps and they are quite retarded on the ignition indeed even with FMIC. Then others say they can run much higher boost using the same ignition timing as standard boost and I feel very jealous
[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2002 9:47:49 PM]
It takes a while to get the heatsoak with hard road driving, and the first area to poke through with detonation is about 5000 RPM snapping open the throttle. Eventually with standard AE801 tunubg you get blips of detonation from 4500 to 6500. With the sort of timing the Prodrive ECU uses it is even worse. Sadly on my car the ECU misses the lot and it just detonates - only very occasionally audible but the knocklink picks it up.
Ideally I would love to run it about one AFR point leaner too.
But without a FMIC and/or WI something will have to give. For the track it is going to end up being turned down 2 PSI, left super rich and retarded a bit more.
Just a bit surprised how low the limit is, but it is clearly the heatsoak, could get 30 degrees above ambient throttle body temperatures on the road earlier
It might be that the sweet spot for good fuelling and ignition with this setup is actually turning the boost down a bit, whilst unfashionable looks to be the way things are going.
I suppose this should come as a little warning to those running big turbos at silly boost on standard ECUs - especially in this hot weather - forecast is 29C for the South of England tomorrow.
Those with WI - how many degrees did you get back
?Also trying to compare ignition timing between JECS and Link - I am wondering if the entries in the maps have the same offset? I have seen a few 20 ish PSI Link VF turbo maps and they are quite retarded on the ignition indeed even with FMIC. Then others say they can run much higher boost using the same ignition timing as standard boost and I feel very jealous
[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2002 9:47:49 PM]
14 August 2002, 09:51 PM
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Ecutek doesn't yet have access to the acceleration enrichment - it might help the snap open det at 5000 RPM - especially since this turbo is pushing so much more air. But after that the det does poke through here and there whilst on full load going through the gears.
Turning the boost down to 18 PSI for the summer seems the most sensible option so far, rather than covering up slugs of high intake temperature with retarded timing which will only give higher EGTs.
Turning the boost down to 18 PSI for the summer seems the most sensible option so far, rather than covering up slugs of high intake temperature with retarded timing which will only give higher EGTs.
14 August 2002, 09:59 PM
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What is an AE801? And how come you get knock at 20 PSI (that's like 1.3 bars, right?)? It would indeed look like your air intake temp is too high. Why havent you fitted a FMIC? WI seems to have downsides unless you mix the water with toluene...
[Edited by Claudius - 8/14/2002 10:01:10 PM]
[Edited by Claudius - 8/14/2002 10:01:10 PM]
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14 August 2002, 10:36 PM
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AE801 is the standard MY99 ECU - was just using this as a reference for the timing. If I want to run this sort of boost in summer I need to go for a FMIC I agree, but the slippery slope will have me! Most sensible option really looks like turn the boost down, leave the internals, clutch and gearbox as they are and enjoy. Regarding almost 1.4 bar on standard internals - quite a few do this... some long term. If det free they just seem to break gearboxes.
EGTS on the smaller turbo at 20 PSI/8% CO were in low the 700s C but since I have fitted the bigger turbo and manifold and have not refitted the EGT probe. It never seemed to help decide on the limit, whereas knock and intake temperature seemed more useful. For six months of the year at least the Scottish weather makes it feel like you have a FMIC Sadly not now 
Some would say you naturally expect to retard the ignition for more boost, but with improved breathing and less exhaust back pressure from the bigger turbo I was a bit more optimistic. It is certainly not slow, just hit the limit a lot earlier than expected.
[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2002 10:40:32 PM]
EGTS on the smaller turbo at 20 PSI/8% CO were in low the 700s C but since I have fitted the bigger turbo and manifold and have not refitted the EGT probe. It never seemed to help decide on the limit, whereas knock and intake temperature seemed more useful. For six months of the year at least the Scottish weather makes it feel like you have a FMIC
Sadly not now Some would say you naturally expect to retard the ignition for more boost, but with improved breathing and less exhaust back pressure from the bigger turbo I was a bit more optimistic. It is certainly not slow, just hit the limit a lot earlier than expected.
[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2002 10:40:32 PM]
14 August 2002, 11:32 PM
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John,
is a fmic really going to be a slippery slope? I think you started falling a long time ago? Seems to me if this is what is holding you up then its needed! You can't fall anymore without something else being the limit surely You know Harvey Smith has 3 brand new fmics in his possesion for sale that'll fit your car?
I have vested interests in this thread since i have pretty much the same setup. Fmic goes in this week with turbo, link next week.
you've got my email address anyway so mail me anytime if you wanna discuss.
Cheers
Paul.
is a fmic really going to be a slippery slope? I think you started falling a long time ago? Seems to me if this is what is holding you up then its needed! You can't fall anymore without something else being the limit surely
You know Harvey Smith has 3 brand new fmics in his possesion for sale that'll fit your car?I have vested interests in this thread since i have pretty much the same setup. Fmic goes in this week with turbo, link next week.
you've got my email address anyway so mail me anytime if you wanna discuss.
Cheers
Paul.
14 August 2002, 11:45 PM
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John, the LINK ECU's (MY97-00) normally have a 10° offset, if the value for a certain ignition zone is "x" then you'll have to add 10° to get the real ignition advance.
Carlos H.
Carlos H.
14 August 2002, 11:52 PM
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I have my Blitz DSBC boost controller with the stock ECU, APS induction and 5 Zigen exhaust, set on 60%. This means that in winter boost can go up to 1.25Kg/cm2 of boost. Now in summer, leaving the boost controller as is on 60%, I only get 1.1Kg/cm2 of boost. This means something, probably for safety and I never fight it by putting it up to 70% in summer to compensate, so that I get higher boost. I leave it as it is. Better to be safe than sorry. No use running high boost with high ambient temps unless offcourse you install a FMIC, WI, WS, etc.
Cheers,
wrexy.
Cheers,
wrexy.
15 August 2002, 07:11 AM
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John,
with water injection - I run the same boost level and advance summer and winter.
In the winter I need to add a touch more fuel to compensate for denser air - that is it - and you know I don't run small amounts of boost!
Also the WI helped me run far more advance - a much bigger advantage in the ignition than the FMIC - FMIC is enabling me to release a little more power - however to date I have been committed to TMIC and only very recently - for very hot track work - have converted to FMIC.
WI will give you more - and is cheaper.
Trout
with water injection - I run the same boost level and advance summer and winter.
In the winter I need to add a touch more fuel to compensate for denser air - that is it - and you know I don't run small amounts of boost!
Also the WI helped me run far more advance - a much bigger advantage in the ignition than the FMIC - FMIC is enabling me to release a little more power - however to date I have been committed to TMIC and only very recently - for very hot track work - have converted to FMIC.
WI will give you more - and is cheaper.
Trout
15 August 2002, 08:53 AM
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Sorry to write this in here, but if anyone has tried to email me from yesterday afternoon, I can't access any new emails from then and still going. There is a problem with the server and it won't be fixed today either cos today is a National holiday here.
Cheers,
wrexy.
Cheers,
wrexy.
15 August 2002, 10:39 AM
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Not quite so depressing - it appears from idle timing that the Link and the JECS are using the same +10 offset compared to the STi. So STi/P1 100RON VF28 1.1bar timing is a bit more retarded midrange and a bit more advanced at the top compared to my UK 98 RON VF hybrid (say like VF23) 1.4 bar timing - but I am holding more top end boost so I would expect to have to drop some timing to compensate - but of course the cams are different too.
Andy F was telling me a few rules of thumb which sound about right from what I am seeing - ie. 1 degree retard for extra 5C throttle body temp AND 1 degree for 1 extra PSI. Wish I could map the former a la GEMS - half the problem seems to be inconsistent charge temperatures with the top mount at high boost on a hot day - depends on how long you keep the power on for. Track will be interesting to see.
Trout, can you tell me any before/after WI Link timing figures say from 4000 to 6000 RPM at 1.4 bar or whatever you run? How many degrees are you talking ?
WREXY it doesn't sound like your boost contoller is very "closed loop"? Sounds more like it is holding a duty cycle otherwise why the environmental offsets? Surprised....
[Edited by john banks - 8/15/2002 10:46:54 AM]
Andy F was telling me a few rules of thumb which sound about right from what I am seeing - ie. 1 degree retard for extra 5C throttle body temp AND 1 degree for 1 extra PSI. Wish I could map the former a la GEMS - half the problem seems to be inconsistent charge temperatures with the top mount at high boost on a hot day - depends on how long you keep the power on for. Track will be interesting to see.
Trout, can you tell me any before/after WI Link timing figures say from 4000 to 6000 RPM at 1.4 bar or whatever you run? How many degrees are you talking
?WREXY it doesn't sound like your boost contoller is very "closed loop"? Sounds more like it is holding a duty cycle otherwise why the environmental offsets? Surprised....
[Edited by john banks - 8/15/2002 10:46:54 AM]
15 August 2002, 04:12 PM
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John, didn't know that the STi ECU's didn't use the +10° offset as the JECS or LINK .....
But remember that the STi/P1 is more advanced at the top because boost starts to decrease as revs get higher. If your inlet temps are already between 55 ~ 60°C then you should probably lower your boost at top end, might be a good idea to use WI but water mixed with methanol.
Carlos H.
But remember that the STi/P1 is more advanced at the top because boost starts to decrease as revs get higher. If your inlet temps are already between 55 ~ 60°C then you should probably lower your boost at top end, might be a good idea to use WI but water mixed with methanol
.Carlos H.
15 August 2002, 10:36 PM
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Whilst I am running more boost the turbo is bigger than a VF28 so should give less back pressure. I am not driving it hard at the top end - dropping to 1.17 bar at 7000 RPM - the STi would be about 1 bar.
Having got lots of heatsoak into it on the track it was fine. It was only 2 degrees from detting on road use and 1 PSI lower. I think the factory knock sensor is not picking anything up after my manifold went on though
Ssometimes getting to the rev limiter gives a few oranges on the knocklink, but with more timing gives red. Not that I like to bounce off the rev limiter just checking the mapping.
[Edited by john banks - 8/15/2002 10:39:31 PM]
Having got lots of heatsoak into it on the track it was fine. It was only 2 degrees from detting on road use and 1 PSI lower. I think the factory knock sensor is not picking anything up after my manifold went on though
Ssometimes getting to the rev limiter gives a few oranges on the knocklink, but with more timing gives red. Not that I like to bounce off the rev limiter just checking the mapping.
[Edited by john banks - 8/15/2002 10:39:31 PM]
15 August 2002, 11:55 PM
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John,
Mervyn may know what the go is with the Blitz DSBC cos they sell them. Next time your talking to him and if you remember, would you ask him please?
My email is back up and running now.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 8/15/2002 11:56:48 PM]
Mervyn may know what the go is with the Blitz DSBC cos they sell them. Next time your talking to him and if you remember, would you ask him please?
My email is back up and running now.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 8/15/2002 11:56:48 PM]
16 August 2002, 12:00 AM
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Having got lots of heatsoak into it on the track it was fine. It was only 2 degrees from detting on road use and 1 PSI lower. I think the factory knock sensor is not picking anything up after my manifold went on though
Ssometimes getting to the rev limiter gives a few oranges on the knocklink, but with more timing gives red. Not that I like to bounce off the rev limiter just checking the mapping.
Ssometimes getting to the rev limiter gives a few oranges on the knocklink, but with more timing gives red. Not that I like to bounce off the rev limiter just checking the mapping.
Carlos H.
16 August 2002, 08:37 AM
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John,
with an MD254 boost profile was 1.4@4,000 to 6,000 - then tailing off to 1.3bar up to 8,000 (actually turbo would not do more - even with 1.2bar actuator).
Anyway - in this state of tune - with uprated MRT TMIC - WI injection enabled me to add in up to 4deg of extra advance in the boost zones. Actually - at the top end it seems to have gone beyond MBT - with a splash of NF it seemed to be able to advance endlessly - but no extra power - indeed the power dropped off by around 10bhp.
WI was most significant around peak torque - protecting against det and enabling me to push it - at the top end it was a nice to have on track.
Have made a couple of changes since then - FMIC - less detty - cooler air - however more conservative on advance - purely to get more power.
Oh - and when my WI failed on track - it was more detty - but not simply lots and bang - the det slowly increased as the car got hot due to lack of water - plenty of time to back off and fix it.
Main reason was failure of scavenger pump in rear - not the ERL system itself.
Trout
PS If you mail me offline I will tell you my advance figures for peak boost
with an MD254 boost profile was 1.4@4,000 to 6,000 - then tailing off to 1.3bar up to 8,000 (actually turbo would not do more - even with 1.2bar actuator).
Anyway - in this state of tune - with uprated MRT TMIC - WI injection enabled me to add in up to 4deg of extra advance in the boost zones. Actually - at the top end it seems to have gone beyond MBT - with a splash of NF it seemed to be able to advance endlessly - but no extra power - indeed the power dropped off by around 10bhp.
WI was most significant around peak torque - protecting against det and enabling me to push it - at the top end it was a nice to have on track.
Have made a couple of changes since then - FMIC - less detty - cooler air - however more conservative on advance - purely to get more power.
Oh - and when my WI failed on track - it was more detty - but not simply lots and bang - the det slowly increased as the car got hot due to lack of water - plenty of time to back off and fix it.
Main reason was failure of scavenger pump in rear - not the ERL system itself.
Trout
PS If you mail me offline I will tell you my advance figures for peak boost
16 August 2002, 08:45 AM
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With my non-wi equipped euro scoob running 98 ron, I can get away with around 12+10 degrees (Link - can of worms those +10 ), at 1,3 bar around 4000 rpm, this is with some safety - and works v well on track.
This is with an FMIC and a VF23...and the iON 4-1 header (which actually did wonders to the old det-thing).
What are you running around 4k and max boost JB?
/J
), at 1,3 bar around 4000 rpm, this is with some safety - and works v well on track.This is with an FMIC and a VF23...and the iON 4-1 header (which actually did wonders to the old det-thing).
What are you running around 4k and max boost JB?
/J
16 August 2002, 11:53 AM
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<off topic, sorry>
Doesn't seem to be I got "Recipient address rejected: Domain not found'"
You would have mail otherwise
</off topic>
My email is back up and running now.
Doesn't seem to be
I got "Recipient address rejected: Domain not found'"You would have mail otherwise
</off topic>
16 August 2002, 01:27 PM
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About 10+11 at 4000-5000, increasing to 10+15 at 6000 to 10+18 at 6400 and above, boost on track was 1.3 bar dropping to about 1.1 bar at 7000 RPM. On road about 1.4 bar dropping to 1.2 bar at 7000 with same timing. Fuelling about 8% CO.
MD304, 1 bar actuator at 1.1 bar, SS manifold, full decat. Standard induction.
Carlos - the Bosch sensor and knocklink are picking up detonation, the OEM sensor and ECU are not.
[Edited by john banks - 8/16/2002 1:32:30 PM]
MD304, 1 bar actuator at 1.1 bar, SS manifold, full decat. Standard induction.
Carlos - the Bosch sensor and knocklink are picking up detonation, the OEM sensor and ECU are not.
[Edited by john banks - 8/16/2002 1:32:30 PM]
16 August 2002, 01:53 PM
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John,
a taster.....7,000rpm......1.3bar........10+23deg... ...
Email me at rannoch1@hotmail.com if you want to see my map
Trout
PS John - are you sure it is det - get some det cans on it - you may have set the K/Link to sensitive
[Edited by Trout - 8/16/2002 1:54:39 PM]
a taster.....7,000rpm......1.3bar........10+23deg... ...
Email me at rannoch1@hotmail.com if you want to see my map
Trout
PS John - are you sure it is det - get some det cans on it - you may have set the K/Link to sensitive
[Edited by Trout - 8/16/2002 1:54:39 PM]
16 August 2002, 02:37 PM
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Tempted by APS induction.
Trout would love to see your map - can you mail it to me.
It is detting - I could hear it that is why I got the knocklink. It worsens on hot days with monster heatsoak, get better when retarding the timing. Certain it is (was) detonation. I need to check my knock sensor and loom is all fine, if so it looks like the manifold means the ECU doesn't hear it. I wonder if it uses a filter and the frequency has changed with the manifold?
Trout would love to see your map - can you mail it to me.
It is detting - I could hear it that is why I got the knocklink. It worsens on hot days with monster heatsoak, get better when retarding the timing. Certain it is (was) detonation. I need to check my knock sensor and loom is all fine, if so it looks like the manifold means the ECU doesn't hear it. I wonder if it uses a filter and the frequency has changed with the manifold?
