MY99 - Three Engine Failures/Replacements Since last October !!!!
08 July 2002, 10:42 AM
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http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=107921
Hopefully the above link will be connected to a thread I started in 3rd Party dealer section....may have more to do with Drive Train than dealer issue...
--------------------------------
Hi All,
I brought my MY99 last October from Anthony Betts in MK.
60K fully serviced and in perfect nick (so it appeared).
After 2 months, at a constant 5k revs at some speed over the national limit, power dropped, turbo didnt work and car ran on 3 cylinders. Toom it back to ABetts and within the Subaru 3 yr wtee it had a new short engine, clutch, turbo (piston melted and turbo knackered). It was off the road for the whole of Xmas and New Year...I ran it in as asked, changed the oil and filter after 1k, etc.
March, exactly the same symptoms, same speed, same revs, constant cruising (I had driven like this or eratically many times prior to this) and it blew again (3 weeks after after 400 pound service). Took it to Adams (2nd opinion etc). They replaced the whole engine, heads, turbo, etc under the extended wattentee as the piston had a hole again and turbo was gone too. They had the injectors checked and cleaned,I ran it in and changed oil and filter after 1k etc. It ran sweeter than ever...
24th June, same speed, same revs, same power drop, running on 3 cylinders. The only difference in symptoms is no smell of oil, no smoke out of the back (which on the other two occasions only appeared after it had been left for 15 mins). I have not yet asked them what they have found (as they have only had it a day).
I would guess its the same thing again...
What the hell can it be !!??
There were no leaks, no funny noises, no weird symptoms at all.
I always warmed it up for 5 mins before ragging it. I do not red line it (but do drive it hard). I cool it down for 5 mins after every journey too. The car is not modified in any way either.
I want to return it to Anthony Betts and will be writing to them shortly (it appears not to be their policy to refund/buy back !!)
I contacted Subaru and they seem to wash their hands of the car after the 3 years (even though the used cars are sold as Subaru Proven cars). I am writing to Subaru, ABetts, my solicitor and a consumer body this week. I have also been in contact with a TV show.
Has anyone else had so many problems with a UK dealer suplied Imprezza ??? Any additional info, contacts, examples, warrentee issues, etc, would be welcome to add to my protfolio of collected info...
Any info on what caused other peoples melted pistons would also be useful.
Regards, MKC.........
Hopefully the above link will be connected to a thread I started in 3rd Party dealer section....may have more to do with Drive Train than dealer issue...
--------------------------------
Hi All,
I brought my MY99 last October from Anthony Betts in MK.
60K fully serviced and in perfect nick (so it appeared).
After 2 months, at a constant 5k revs at some speed over the national limit, power dropped, turbo didnt work and car ran on 3 cylinders. Toom it back to ABetts and within the Subaru 3 yr wtee it had a new short engine, clutch, turbo (piston melted and turbo knackered). It was off the road for the whole of Xmas and New Year...I ran it in as asked, changed the oil and filter after 1k, etc.
March, exactly the same symptoms, same speed, same revs, constant cruising (I had driven like this or eratically many times prior to this) and it blew again (3 weeks after after 400 pound service). Took it to Adams (2nd opinion etc). They replaced the whole engine, heads, turbo, etc under the extended wattentee as the piston had a hole again and turbo was gone too. They had the injectors checked and cleaned,I ran it in and changed oil and filter after 1k etc. It ran sweeter than ever...
24th June, same speed, same revs, same power drop, running on 3 cylinders. The only difference in symptoms is no smell of oil, no smoke out of the back (which on the other two occasions only appeared after it had been left for 15 mins). I have not yet asked them what they have found (as they have only had it a day).
I would guess its the same thing again...
What the hell can it be !!??
There were no leaks, no funny noises, no weird symptoms at all.
I always warmed it up for 5 mins before ragging it. I do not red line it (but do drive it hard). I cool it down for 5 mins after every journey too. The car is not modified in any way either.
I want to return it to Anthony Betts and will be writing to them shortly (it appears not to be their policy to refund/buy back !!)
I contacted Subaru and they seem to wash their hands of the car after the 3 years (even though the used cars are sold as Subaru Proven cars). I am writing to Subaru, ABetts, my solicitor and a consumer body this week. I have also been in contact with a TV show.
Has anyone else had so many problems with a UK dealer suplied Imprezza ??? Any additional info, contacts, examples, warrentee issues, etc, would be welcome to add to my protfolio of collected info...
Any info on what caused other peoples melted pistons would also be useful.
Regards, MKC.........
08 July 2002, 10:51 AM
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This happens. The thing with the engine, that is. Why is a mystery - and is frequently discussed!
Sorry to hear about all your troubles! Can't do much to help, though
The one helpful thing out of your story is that it might help narrow down the reason for it happening - statistics keep being gathered & keep leading nowhere, but I don't think that the same thing has happened to the same car 3 times 
yet.
Sorry to hear about all your troubles! Can't do much to help, though
The one helpful thing out of your story is that it might help narrow down the reason for it happening - statistics keep being gathered & keep leading nowhere, but I don't think that the same thing has happened to the same car 3 times yet.
08 July 2002, 10:51 AM
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Jesus, that's expensive !
I would have the MAF (Main AirFlow) sensor checked and before trashing it again monitor o2 sensor values closely on DeltaDash or select monitor (should be >=.9V on full load in 3rd gear)
Buy an AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) or make it yourself. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new shorblock !!!
Mark.
I would have the MAF (Main AirFlow) sensor checked and before trashing it again monitor o2 sensor values closely on DeltaDash or select monitor (should be >=.9V on full load in 3rd gear)
Buy an AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) or make it yourself. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new shorblock !!!
Mark.
08 July 2002, 11:45 AM
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this happened to me when my my99 was only 6 months old(only happened once though). from memory i was speaking graham goode about something else at the time the car was at the subaru dealers being rebuilt and i just mentioned it to them. GG suggested that i get them to check the ecu as it could still be a jap spec ecu.
spoke to garage near completion of rebuild and they changed the ecu as they thought it would be safer. i understand this as yes it was a jap spec ecu.
some of the dealers can be ***** though so watch them, they seem to think they are god. this same car broke down 2 years later, i new it was the maf, but had the car recovered to dealer for repair and courtesy car as still under warranty. the wifw had been driving the car for the last year and was averaging 30 mpg so no thrashing going.
the first thing mechanic said to recovery driver was
"oh f**k its that mad c***ts car, he drives like a complete tosser and red lines it in every gear"
recovery driver says "surely that wont break the maf though" mechanic "oh yes it would the way he drives it, its going to cost him £200 for this"
recovery driver says "the woman driving it says it was under warranty!"
mechanic"not the way he drives!"
5 minutes later i gave the service manager i right bollocking down the phone and relayed the whole conversation to him. got the maf replaced free of charge.
by the way the recovery driver was my dad
just be careful as they dont always give the high quality of service you should get.
ps could not fault garage for any other servicing issues in 2 1/2 years of using them. this one just pissed me off a bit.
spoke to garage near completion of rebuild and they changed the ecu as they thought it would be safer. i understand this as yes it was a jap spec ecu.
some of the dealers can be ***** though so watch them, they seem to think they are god. this same car broke down 2 years later, i new it was the maf, but had the car recovered to dealer for repair and courtesy car as still under warranty. the wifw had been driving the car for the last year and was averaging 30 mpg so no thrashing going.
the first thing mechanic said to recovery driver was
"oh f**k its that mad c***ts car, he drives like a complete tosser and red lines it in every gear"
recovery driver says "surely that wont break the maf though" mechanic "oh yes it would the way he drives it, its going to cost him £200 for this"
recovery driver says "the woman driving it says it was under warranty!"
mechanic"not the way he drives!"
5 minutes later i gave the service manager i right bollocking down the phone and relayed the whole conversation to him. got the maf replaced free of charge.
by the way the recovery driver was my dad
just be careful as they dont always give the high quality of service you should get.
ps could not fault garage for any other servicing issues in 2 1/2 years of using them. this one just pissed me off a bit.
08 July 2002, 02:27 PM
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I tend to agree with Mark here. I have a feeling the MAF (air flow sensor) is the culprit.
Sometimes MAFs don't show the ususal symptoms of failure, such as showing a fault code on the select monitor, or oscilating idle. Instead, they slowly start to read wrong, making the ECU think the engine needs less fuel, so the ECU leans out the mix which causes the engine to pop.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
Sometimes MAFs don't show the ususal symptoms of failure, such as showing a fault code on the select monitor, or oscilating idle. Instead, they slowly start to read wrong, making the ECU think the engine needs less fuel, so the ECU leans out the mix which causes the engine to pop.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
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09 July 2002, 10:06 AM
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couple of questions.
maybe I didnt read carefully enough.
was it the same piston each time or did it vary?
To me it sounds like a fuelling issue so could indeed be anything in the fuel system.
Not likely to be a dodgy injector since they were replaced after the first time.
I would be inclined to think its the ecu.
Maf could well be dodgy, but after a while of being dodgy they tend to let go, and I would have thought before the engine would have a chance to do the same.
Cant believe they were stupid enough to just replace the engine and not try to look at the source of the problem, when everyone knows that melted pistons are due to running lean.
Were there any signs of det on the other pistons? (pitting of the piston crown)
Do yourself a favour and get yourself a knocklink and a lambda link and learn how to read them. They will help you spot if something is amiss.
maybe I didnt read carefully enough.
was it the same piston each time or did it vary?
To me it sounds like a fuelling issue so could indeed be anything in the fuel system.
Not likely to be a dodgy injector since they were replaced after the first time.
I would be inclined to think its the ecu.
Maf could well be dodgy, but after a while of being dodgy they tend to let go, and I would have thought before the engine would have a chance to do the same.
Cant believe they were stupid enough to just replace the engine and not try to look at the source of the problem, when everyone knows that melted pistons are due to running lean.
Were there any signs of det on the other pistons? (pitting of the piston crown)
Do yourself a favour and get yourself a knocklink and a lambda link and learn how to read them. They will help you spot if something is amiss.
09 July 2002, 12:36 PM
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Blimey...thanks for so many replies...
It was piston 2 on two ocassions and another on the third.
The other pistons looked OK, not as black of shagged as the one full of holes.
Answers to some questions :Standard oil from dealer used (costs loads on service so should be good). I use Optimax or Super Unleaded only from various garages, never use std unleaded.
I do drive like a 'medium' maniac as I use clear dry visible roads every day. However, I never redline (in fact 6k is probably the max most of the time), always warm up and cool down as expected.
I will mention the MAF. The dealer mentioned the ECU. After 3 failures, I would expect the extended wtee or subaru to replace all of the *sensors and other devices that have any control over or feedback into the fueling system.
I would apreciate a *list of any such devices and a rough idea of what they do so I can take it to the dealer/subaru/mondial etc and ask for them all to be replaced or at least costed as the car has been so crud for its 8 months....
Please keep the info flowing, it will all be useful.
Regards,
MKC.
It was piston 2 on two ocassions and another on the third.
The other pistons looked OK, not as black of shagged as the one full of holes.
Answers to some questions :Standard oil from dealer used (costs loads on service so should be good). I use Optimax or Super Unleaded only from various garages, never use std unleaded.
I do drive like a 'medium' maniac as I use clear dry visible roads every day. However, I never redline (in fact 6k is probably the max most of the time), always warm up and cool down as expected.
I will mention the MAF. The dealer mentioned the ECU. After 3 failures, I would expect the extended wtee or subaru to replace all of the *sensors and other devices that have any control over or feedback into the fueling system.
I would apreciate a *list of any such devices and a rough idea of what they do so I can take it to the dealer/subaru/mondial etc and ask for them all to be replaced or at least costed as the car has been so crud for its 8 months....
Please keep the info flowing, it will all be useful.
Regards,
MKC.
09 July 2002, 01:19 PM
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MKC, I would start with
MAF sensor (nasty little buggers)
MAP sensor
O2 or Lambda sensor
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp sensor
Anyone else wants to add to that ?
Also, as has been suggested: hang it on a DeltaDash somewhere as soon as the engine is working again. It might be obvious after 5 seconds what's really wrong. (Hopefully)
MAF sensor (nasty little buggers)
MAP sensor
O2 or Lambda sensor
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp sensor
Anyone else wants to add to that ?
Also, as has been suggested: hang it on a DeltaDash somewhere as soon as the engine is working again. It might be obvious after 5 seconds what's really wrong. (Hopefully)
09 July 2002, 02:41 PM
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Nice one...thats the sort of list that will be useful.
I read the DeltaDash suggestion earlier and will look it up,
unless anyone wants to let me know what it is in the mean time ?
Cheers,
MKC
I read the DeltaDash suggestion earlier and will look it up,
unless anyone wants to let me know what it is in the mean time ?
Cheers,
MKC
09 July 2002, 02:57 PM
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Delta Dash is diagnostic software available from EcuTek, http://www.ecutek.com which you download to a laptop and use it to monitor your engine, sensors and ECU. It plugs into where the subaru select monitor plugs in. It is like the select monitor subaru use, but tonnes cheaper, better, quicker, you can log runs, and keep the files for future comparisons. There is more info on the site I mentioned.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 7/9/2002 3:06:20 PM]
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 7/9/2002 3:06:20 PM]
10 July 2002, 01:58 PM
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For safety, why not ask them to change the fuel filter at least (and pump + regulator), if not the whole supply side of things. I just saw a r00ted system (everything from the tank, to the injectors) there was something in the fuel had clogged all sorts of bits and bobs - resulting in the owner pulling over (he's an experienced car bloke and "felt" something was wrong). If he'd driven it much further, the result would've been a big bang.
Best of luck with getting it all sorted.
Best of luck with getting it all sorted.
10 July 2002, 02:31 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion. They have replaced the fuel filter and most of the other mechanical items on all of the other ocassions. The oild pump was replaced, but not sure if fuel one was done. I will add it to my list. MKC
10 July 2002, 03:09 PM
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thats the reply i got in sept 99. me thinks they telling porkies.
they showed me the bill for the subaru warranty claim, in excess of £7000. mine was piston no 3 that went. the garage where i get mine serviced at the moment have said they have heard of this happening quite often on uk cars.!
they showed me the bill for the subaru warranty claim, in excess of £7000. mine was piston no 3 that went. the garage where i get mine serviced at the moment have said they have heard of this happening quite often on uk cars.!
10 July 2002, 04:00 PM
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Any details of the ECU affected? Bit worried now! 
Should the info be shared with the rest of the UK dealer network?
Or is it a bit of billy bull**** by the dealer??!! Also, did you have any mods and did they question them?
MB
Should the info be shared with the rest of the UK dealer network?
Or is it a bit of billy bull**** by the dealer??!! Also, did you have any mods and did they question them?
MB
10 July 2002, 04:07 PM
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i had mods hks induction, ss downpipe and ss backbox, when mine went. they just put the originals back on. never really found out why they changed ecu, they just said it was a safe option to take. albeit expensive one at that! therefore suggests that something was wrong that they did not want banding about.
10 July 2002, 04:29 PM
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I am aware, they believe that an ECU fault (not previously encountered in the UK
Just wondering how a Subaru inspector can determine an ECU fault from a melted piston ?
I'm not saying it can not be an ECU fault (again, a good reason to have it inspected with a DeltaDash), but quite frankly it would be the last place I would look.
The more I think of it... it would be *very* hard to diagnose a faulty MAF with just a Select Monitor (as it has no logging/graphing) options.
Not trying to "sell" you a DeltaDash, but with the amount of cars that have blown up *just* like your car that we know of, the explanation you were given sounds a bit bizar to say the least.
Just wondering how a Subaru inspector can determine an ECU fault from a melted piston ?
I'm not saying it can not be an ECU fault (again, a good reason to have it inspected with a DeltaDash), but quite frankly it would be the last place I would look.
The more I think of it... it would be *very* hard to diagnose a faulty MAF with just a Select Monitor (as it has no logging/graphing) options.
Not trying to "sell" you a DeltaDash, but with the amount of cars that have blown up *just* like your car that we know of, the explanation you were given sounds a bit bizar to say the least.
10 July 2002, 05:03 PM
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just wanted to add that as we know the my99 and my00 ecu's perform differently.the my99 ecu's low octane map is also the same as the high octane map,could this have anything to do with any of the problems leading to this thread?
10 July 2002, 05:30 PM
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I did not have any mods at all on my car.
It cost me 14.5k 8 months ago. 3 months off the road for repair, 3 months running it in, left me with only 8 weeks of real driving of the car..!! I have paid for courtesy cars, oil and filter changes and a service on an engine which it due to be removed yet again..!!
MOT due in 3 months too...
Although it would be useful to have the delta software,
I am now not convinced as to whether I want to keep the car..!!
If anyone wants to lend me a copy of the software for a week, then that would be great (and illegal I am sure), but for now I will stick to getting everything possible replaced (or a refund). I will definitely consider the software if I end up having to keep it...
Cheers for your comments and advice. Please keep it coming.
I will post an update whenever I get one....
MKC
It cost me 14.5k 8 months ago. 3 months off the road for repair, 3 months running it in, left me with only 8 weeks of real driving of the car..!! I have paid for courtesy cars, oil and filter changes and a service on an engine which it due to be removed yet again..!!
MOT due in 3 months too...
Although it would be useful to have the delta software,
I am now not convinced as to whether I want to keep the car..!!
If anyone wants to lend me a copy of the software for a week, then that would be great (and illegal I am sure), but for now I will stick to getting everything possible replaced (or a refund). I will definitely consider the software if I end up having to keep it...
Cheers for your comments and advice. Please keep it coming.
I will post an update whenever I get one....
MKC
10 July 2002, 06:25 PM
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just ignore my last post then about the maps on my99 ecu's.I just thought that if you ran a boost controller for example,that your car could not have gone into limp home mode but as your car is/was standard it should still be able to do this.
It cost me 14.5k 8 months ago. 3 months off the road for repair, 3 months running it in, left me with only 8 weeks of real driving of the car..!! I have paid for courtesy cars, oil and filter changes and a service on an engine which it due to be removed yet again..!!
MOT due in 3 months too...
think I would tell them to stick it up their ****,surely with a history like that they do not have a leg to stand on?
It cost me 14.5k 8 months ago. 3 months off the road for repair, 3 months running it in, left me with only 8 weeks of real driving of the car..!! I have paid for courtesy cars, oil and filter changes and a service on an engine which it due to be removed yet again..!!
MOT due in 3 months too...
think I would tell them to stick it up their ****,surely with a history like that they do not have a leg to stand on?
16 July 2002, 11:17 AM
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Subaru UK are now convinced that the fault is down to this ECU failure that has never ocurred in the UK !! The engine, ECU and injectors (already tested, but changing anyway) are being replaced.
I was told that MAF and other sensor failures cause poor running, but do not just suddenly fail and blow your engine up in the way mine has done. Hence the reason for them not replacing any of the other electronic devices...
Still waiting for an engine to be available...
We shall see...
MKC
I was told that MAF and other sensor failures cause poor running, but do not just suddenly fail and blow your engine up in the way mine has done. Hence the reason for them not replacing any of the other electronic devices...
Still waiting for an engine to be available...
We shall see...
MKC
16 July 2002, 11:29 AM
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Jezus, that's some bad luck.
I'm with John on this one. One failure (well these things happen), Two (hmm, very worried now), but three. Id say, go stick your car up your @rse and give me a new one or a refund.
I can't believe that 3 engines have failed without something else in the car causing the problem.
If I were Subaru UK, I'd have learned my lesson after engine #2 and changed all the sensors, every bit of piping and anything else attached to the engine. That can't be that expensive compared to a new engine every couple of months.
Stefan
I'm with John on this one. One failure (well these things happen), Two (hmm, very worried now), but three. Id say, go stick your car up your @rse and give me a new one or a refund.
I can't believe that 3 engines have failed without something else in the car causing the problem.
If I were Subaru UK, I'd have learned my lesson after engine #2 and changed all the sensors, every bit of piping and anything else attached to the engine. That can't be that expensive compared to a new engine every couple of months.
Stefan
16 July 2002, 11:40 AM
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It would be nice to get the info from Subaru as to why they think the ECU was at fault. And when they say 'first in the UK' (how did they come to that conclusion 
) do they mean 'Europe' by 'UK', as opposed to Japanese? I thought the imports went more often... although presumably most of the time this is through bad fuel. So is it an entirely different reason for the Euro cars than the Jap?
) do they mean 'Europe' by 'UK', as opposed to Japanese? I thought the imports went more often... although presumably most of the time this is through bad fuel. So is it an entirely different reason for the Euro cars than the Jap?
16 July 2002, 12:26 PM
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All I know is that engines have blown from MAFs that do not run rough, or show signs of wrecking. They slowly slowly get leaner and leaner till det begins and then bye bye engine. There have been a few examples on here and in one case, I think it was MRK Impreza from The Netherlands, where after his engine was rebuilt the MAF had gone back in, run on a select monitor and was found to be running lean. After the MAF was replaced the mixtures were fine again.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
Cheers,
Wrexy.