JackClark

After last nights debacle I thought I'd start a sensible thread on one of the subjects.

I'm no fan of Flash, that's a given. The reasons are many and stem from way before my personal computers were all Apple. But those are just my opinions.

I'll share the opinion of others starting with this short article and welcome pro's and cons from others.

http://www.cellular-news.com/story/50134.php

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That is an extremely valid and good post.

What all this reminds me of is the old Netscape vs Internet Explorer wars of the late 90s/early 2000s. As a developer those times were a right pain in the ****. On the one side you had the Netscape purists who claimed Internet Explorer was non standard and should be ignored and on the other you had Microsoft and its followers saying yes well IE may be non standard but it makes it easier to get things done in the real world (which was true). Both companies were developing their browsers in deliberately opposite directions as a result of all this and fighting it our over market share..... a battle eventually won by Microsoft.

The trouble was sitting in the middle were people like me who had to design websites for the real world/general public who didnt give a toss which browser they were using as long as they could get online and use a website properly. We spent ages writing two sets of code to cater for the Netscape/Mozilla browsers and the Internet Explorer browsers to make websites function properly.

Meanwhile the academics and fanboys continued to debate every little nuance of the browsers claiming one was better than the other because of this and that etc. whilst ignoring the general consumer who couldn't care less whether CSS2 was properly supported on a DIV element in Internet Explorer as long as they could use the web. You know a bit like the way certain people might get a new OS release from a certain company and have to find a reason to use and debate every single new feature whereas Joe Bloggs just wants to turn his comouter on and get on with his work and go home at the end of the day.

Anyway I digress, in the last few years the browsers have all started to come togetehr in terms of their doucment object model support etc. meaning developing has been a lot easier and it has been much better for the consumer. For instance a basic slideshow of rotating images fading in and out on a website can now be done simply and quickly using Javascript whereas 5 years ago you would have had to use Flash. And that brings me nicely on to the discussion here.

What we are seeing now with the advent of portable devices is essentially another 'browser war'. Apple want rid of Flash (why I am not really sure as their excuses do not stand up to scrutiny), but the fact is they do and they can leverage this by not including it in their IOS for portable devices. They have also been making things a little awkward for Flash users on OSX by various means. Meanwhile Android and other devices are quite happy to support Flash, but as Apple are market leaders or at least have a massive chunk of the market their anti Flash stance is starting to have some impact.

Their suggested replacement is HTML5. This is a bit of a nonsense really as HTML5 is a set of standards not a product although it does specify that any HTML 5 compliant browser will have native video containers etc. so I see what they are hinting at. The point is though that HTML 5 is not yet ready, the browsers support bits of it but not all of it and each browser is different of course.

That is not the worst of it though. Right now there are an awful lot of older browsers in use (IE6 for instance is still used by a relatively large percentage of people and IE8 by many more) This will not change quickly (espeially as IE9 is not available to Windws XP users... another huge mistake) and these browsers are not HTML 5 compliant, not by a long way. There is also a huge amount of Flash out there and that isn't going to go away for a long time even if all Flash development stopped today.

Then there are the different applications Flash is used for... not just video, but interactivity such as ads or navigation... what part of HTML 5 allows those functions to be duplicated so readily? None as it's a standard and the building blocks are there, but at a much lower level than using the Flash product.

All that aside I would ask one question of Apple and their fanboys. If Flash is so bad and not in any way the future why are Apple actively having to kill it. Surely the best thing would be to support it so the consumer of today can use curent Flash enabled websites to their full potential and let it be replaced by the natural process in the future so the consumer of tomorrow will be using the supposedly much better HTML 5 and whatever other associated replacments for Flash come along.

And if it doesn't die then it was probably never meant to.

At the end of the day the techies, purists and fanboys are a tiny percentage compared to the general consumers so why should the latter suffer again becuase of the former. It's the tail wagging the dog and it needs to stop! Let the consumer decide, don't decide for them!

JackClark

Nice post. Thanks. I agree with a fair chunk of it.

IE did push boundaries and it caused trouble for some but we're all benefitting from that now, even Joe Bloggs. By forcing the adoption of HTML5 ahead of the official 'standard' we're all benefitting, even Joe Bloggs sat on his iPad... that just works.

Thinking that Apple are actively trying to kill Flash is a bit over the top, it doesn't work well and it's not needed so why should new machines/users support it. For legacy there's emulation that works just great, fullscreen. Lion doesn't have Java Runtime installed either, most people will never notice, but it'll be said that Apple are knifing Sun in the back or something similar.

Anyone developing a Flash reliant website for a customer is a Cowboy or an Idiot, plain and simple, that's obvious. Keep using the same tools to develop great websites but we don't need a third party sat between us and an advert or navigation menu.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

I've said this few times,Apple fear of Flash due Flash will kill battery life quicker on all Apple products and due apps,nothing more nothing less.

Flash has been here few years and will be here,HTML5 is here now,but if will be here in few years time,nobody know,same is problem with Silverlight which is out,but is main competitor?
I don't think so,is just nice alternative.

This problem of Flash is just problem of Apple,nobody have problem with Flash.


Jura

Ant

But personally for me I'd live with out flash for a better battery performance everytime.

JackClark

That's not quite true Jura, if Apple have a problem with Flash because it's a processor and hence battery hog, because it slows loading of a massive number of websites for nothing more than an Advert, then their customers have a problem.

I'm one of those customers, I have a problem especially on older hardware. Click to Flash works well for me, all the benefits but flash content only loads when I want it to. My machines work better without Flash installed at all, but there are times when I'm forced to use it, those occasions are getting less and less every day. Inevitably.

JackClark

As an extra bonus, I can download internet video without some risky app as Flash isn't guarding the content.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I find that it limits my **** content not having Flash on Apple stuff

For that reason, im oot !


Like it or not, Flash is fairly pervasive, there are more Flash enabled devices tan not so it will be around a while yet and as such will be the Apple Achilles heel for as long as it exists and they choose to not support it.

JackClark

The iPad is the perfect **** device, all the majors support it, without Flash. They of course have recognised that Flash has a Legacy only user base and are on the move.

Another Major player left last week, Pandora is now HTML5.

Anyhow, I don't want to post on this thread until f1_fan is back with his extremist views.

ChefDude

You have all missed the basis of apple's dislike for flash. It is a development tool and apple has a problem with any tool you can develop software with that will obfuscate apple's api to the end user.

If everyone uses flash and apple introduces new functionality through the api, but Adobe decides not to extend their additional dev layer, then Apple is not in control.

If flash wasn't a dev platform, apple would be a lot happier.

JackClark

Everyone would be a lot happier.

If by control you mean care about the user experience, then I agree, Flash would be a worry to any OS developer, it's the Wild West sometimes and I'd rather compute in peace.

Back to ****. There's a really nice new way of creating apps in Lion, especially apps that just go to one web page, there's a link in the Lion thread.

IWatkins

Oooh, a proper interesting thread about Flash without the usual crap, makes a change

I develop using Flash. Well, more accurately, I develop Flex applications that use Flash as their runtime. None of my apps are video, adverts or website navigation. My apps are actual applications that do useful things within a web browser for our customers.

We are obviously aware that Apple don't support Flash on their devices but that isn't currently a big problem for us. Whether it will become so or not is something we keep a constant eye on.

We are also not blind to the fact that Apple are on the attack when it comes to Flash. That is a given but the reasons why I'm not really interested in. We have to provide these applications and Flash is currently the only cost effective way of deploying applications to multiple platforms and multiple browsers.

The HTML5 set of standards is just that, a pile of standards. Only a few have really been ratified and the whole thing will continue to be a bit of a mess for sometime. I just hope that all the players agree in the end and we don't get the Netscape/IE world again.

HTML5 at the moment will not do around 80-85% of the things that Flash can do. And with Flash still being developed, that gap will widen even more before HTML5 catches up again. But looking through the various discussion pieces and standards discussions, many of the really useful things Flash can do are not even being looked at yet.

I'm sure HTML5 will get there. And for 95% of web developers who use HTML/JavaScript etc. they will be able to move over to the new standards as they become available in browsers. But for the 5% or so who actually do useful things in Flash, it will be a long time until they move.

My only fear is that we get to the point that proper applications running in a web browser takes a step backwards and we have to go back to platform/OS specific applications running natively. That would be a sad day.

Cheers

Ian

CREWJ

A very good post from someone actually in the industry

JackClark

Thanks for your input Ian. Have none of your customers asked for support on mobile devices? Are you planning or this? What is your strategy for the mobile market?

Surely Apple saying we don't support Flash is a bit like your company saying we don't support iOS.

If I go to Flex.org the front page is covered with iOS articles, what gives?

IWatkins

Jack,

At the moment the majority of our apps by their very nature need big screens, broadband and desktops (apps are for data visualisation). There isn't really a need for mobile versions of the apps just now.

But we are not daft. It won't be long until we can see some of our apps being used in the field and hence a cut down mobile version being necessary.

At this time we know that we cannot just produce a cut down Flash version as we would like to do as Apple mobile products don't support it. We are certainly not going to get into the game of trying to dictate to our customers what platforms to use. So that leaves us with either:

1. Trying to find a common development platform for all mobile platforms.

or

2. Splitting development so that we develop for individual platforms.

For 1. a common development platform we would be looking at browser based HTML/JavaScript only. It is really the only common denominator (way too early for HTML5). This would seriously impact on the functionality we could provide.

For 2. we would look at platform specific development. That would cause splintering of functionality not to mention platform specific builds, docs, help systems, support systems etc. Even look and feel would be different across platforms. This may make it difficult to justify as a business and hence make mobile versions non-viable.

Honestly, it's a bit of a mess really.

There is a little light in the tunnel though. Apple recently changed their mind (a little) on using repackagers to turn Flex (and other) code into iOS apps. Hence what you see on flex.org. Basically, we are in the position at the moment where we can write Flex code that you can build to apps that work on Android, iOS, Blackberry and also PCs, Macs etc. I.e. the Holy Grail of single source base but multiple builds to platform specific releases. However, Apple (and others) could take away this option again at any time hence cannot be relied upon from a long term business point of view.

Oh, we do do some mobile apps, we have just gone platform/OS specific on those including iOS. If fact, one of our iOS apps is/was (not sure now) in the top ten most downloaded apps in the UK.

Cheers

Ian

JackClark

Thanks Ian, that helps a great deal. I can't see Apple pulling support for repackagers now that they've allowed it, at least I hope not. There's a lot of great work out there that just needs repackaging and everyone's happy... in an ideal world of course.

Ant

What app is it Ian?

IWatkins

Jack,
That's it though. Apple have pulled repackagers once so they can do it again. And to be fair, they have every right to do so, even says so in their terms and conditions. Their business model relies on sales of Apps through their app store which I think works well. If anybody or any company looks to undermine that business model then they will shut down that route. The threat that holds will mean businesses looking at the long term cannot fully rely on repackaging for iOS devices. It's risky. Short term it's great though, hence everyone making hay while the sun shines.

Ant,
Met Office app:http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/met-o...31122086?mt=8#

Cheers

Ian

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

So we have heard from a real Flash developer, not a meddler like me and the news is not good solely because of Apple's stance.

So let me ask you a question Jack. What technology and/or product could I use in place of Flash that will deliver all the functionality of Flash and work on every platform?

JackClark

Sorry I don't have a crystal ball, but don't worry Flash is being phased out not turned off overnight, most of the majors already have alternatives and I'm sure the minors will follow. Like I said, anyone selling a Flash only solution is really selling a future problem.

When you started calling me crazy for predicting Flash's demise it really did leave a hole in the browsing experience, that hole's a lot smaller now.

Welcome back by the way.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

So what are these alternatives? Come on, you are maintaining Flash is dying yet you seem unable to tell us what is replacing it? You imply you know and foresee everything so Mr. Expert give us some names, technologies, products. I notice you decided not to re-enagage Ian again... something you often do when you have no answer after the fanboy blog derived nonsense runs out.

JackClark

I chose not to re-engage Ian because we agree.

Look around the web f1_fan, majors that built their business on Flash are being replaced daily, just last week Pandora - quite popular - sacked Flash off for HTML5. Don't focus on one technology to replace Flash, just accept that it's being replaced, you didn't believe me a year ago and still don't now when the evidence is all around you.

Windows 8 will put another nail in the coffin, mark my words.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

HTML5 cannot do most of what Flash can do. I am not focusing on one technology, I am asking you to give me the names of any (as many as you like) that can replace Flash's cross browser functionality.

Why will you not just answer the question? You just keep replying that Flash is disappearing... yet you cannot tell me what is replacing it for many of its applications.

This is why you get pilloried so much on here. You talk the talk, but cannot really back it uo with any facts.

As for Ian... agree LOL! Let's ask him shall we? Ian?

I won't post again on here (less it become another slanging match) until you give me the names of these technologues/products. If you cannot then you have lost the argument.

JackClark

OK I loose the argument, now will you go back to what you were doing for the last week and let the adults have a discussion.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Quoted to prevent edit

Jack this is an adult discussion. It affects the real world consumer not just the Apple disciples who will not use Flash because they are told not to by Mr. Jobs.

JackClark

Bugger, just lost a long answer, the new gestures in Lion are catching me out occasionally.

Short version. I was trying to get rid of you politely. I use Flash, I'm a real world consumer. I use Flash less each week, so do real world consumers. You're a blight on most threads you post on.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

It's horrible being wrong isn't it? See you around Brains

ChefDude

F1, you are coming across

No technology is around forever.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No, I agree, but there is no replacement for it as yet or at least not for a lot of what it does so how come that makes me ? Yeah let's drop something and replace it with... oh nothing! And I am the mental one?

When there are better cross browser technologies that can do all Flash does then it will probably disappear, but right now they aren't there so Apple's refusal to even let consumers choose whether or not to use it on IOS devices is not sensible.

Why don't they just support it and allow the consumer to turn it on or off warning the customer that turning it on may reduce battery life.

Surely that approach would be better?

I work in the industry so I do actually have first hand experience of what a PITA it is to suddenly have parts of a website that don't work on one platform yet do on all others. We now have to develop separate applications for IOS devices which costs more and isn't as good as far as the user experience goes. Not a good situation.

The premise of dropping Flash is fine if a) we have a replacement abailable and b) we didn't already have lots of sites coded at least partly in Flash already.