ScoobyDoo555

HERE

Dan

PeteBrant

Not a chance, not even close.

Heres a stat for you. Music downloads, which have been around for ages, and are perfectly suitable for todays speeds and beyond, still only account for 24% of the total music sales market.


We are at at least a decade away from it - probably more
Ah right, that will be why you offered the HD DVD drive, then. And why every single Xbox ships which a Hard Drive... Oh, wait a minute...

Edcase

Way to make friends with retailers

Just like dropping a console when it's just about to have enough users to be commercial.

Swen6

Thats ****, what are we meant to do for the next 3 years then, desert the console for the Blu-ray one???, and if they're planning the download route your gonna need **** loads of HDD space, on the original Xbox i had, yes i'm guilty as it was modified, but an average game was 3/4G on it's own, you won't get naff all on the 120HDD if your downloading films and games.

It's been said before, downloads will never fully take over as people like having something to show for their money, case, disc and booklet etc.

Good way of treating your customers M$.

PeteBrant

It's pretty clear they have been forced into this decsion. They could not possibly accept BluRay as a storage medium, it would mean paying thier direct competitor a license fee for every unit sold. It would also strengthen the position of BluRay.

So MS are trying to force the issue with Digital downloads. Trouble is, the infrastructure for mass digital distribution is much, much more than 2 or 3 years away, and that assuming people actually buy into it.

Iain Young

I'm not at all surprised by this, and I'm not sure why blu-ray is needed. They'd be be better off allowing 3rd party hard drives to be installed (instead of the overpriced MS one). That way, games could be installed, and storage space would not be a problem. After all, if Sony can get away with multi-gb installs, I don't see why MS can't. It also helps keep the price of the console down...

Geezer

I can understand why MS don't want the hassle of offering a Blu-Ray player. Prices for players will drop soon so what's the point of investing in designing a piece of hardware that is unlikely to sell in great quantities?

A bespoke Blu-Ray player is going to be more attractive than a crappy MS addon, and probably for a similar price.

What does seem odd is that they won't offer a hi-def format media option in a future console and are going down the online route. Like as has already been said, lots of people want the packagin and the disc and the manual, and if your hard drive dies, you have the pain of downloading them all again (as well as proving you are entitled to!). Also, although broadband penetration is quite good in the UK, I be there will be plenty of households who would buy the next gen of console who either won't have broadband or won't have access to broadband that is fast enough to support the type of downloading MS seem to think we will all be doing.

Very odd.

Or, maybe they are just conceding that they will never beat Sony in this arena

Geezer

messiah

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that 40% of 360 owners aren't online anyway, so there's 40% of the user base gone already.

I'd imagine they'd supply a small HDD to get you going and you have to buy a bigger external HDD in the long run.

What concerns me most is price fixing, if all games have to be downloaded then bang goes the pre-owned market which is where I get the majority of my titles...

and then there's the ISP's throttling your bandwidth, some of the monthly DL limits wouldn't even allow you to DL a game in the first place...

bob269

They are talking HD movie downloads not game downloads

Ghetto Dude3

i could have sworn i read that MS are going to start supplying 360`s with a 60gig drive instead of the 20gig one in the near future.

messiah

Never going to happen with the "current" internet - how long will it take to DL a 2 hour film at 1080p with a full HD audio soundtrack? not that the Marketplace supplie that already - I've not DL'd a film from there yet but I've heard its flaky at best and half the film only have 2 channel audio.

And what happens when HD 4K lands, there's no way that will be available over download, blu-ray can't manage it either until the 100gb discs start to appear...

MS are going to have to bite the bullet and incorporate BR into its next console, its already struggling with the DVD capacity (Lost Odyssey on 4 discs?)

Edcase

Slightly confused at your definition of 'price fixing'.

Pre-owned is a big problem for the industry as a whole. I assume you realise the game developer, publisher and platform doesn't get a penny from pre-owned titles? It all goes to the retailer. When you go into certain stores and 50% of their shelf space is preowned yet new releases are fighting to get 'facings' it does stick the knife in somewhat.

Of course, there is an argument that it's good in the long-term as many couldn't afford to game otherwise, but if its only benefiting the retailer then why would publishers care?

If more people were buying new releases instead of preowned, then the industry would be less hit-driven, prices wouldn't be so high and we'd see more 'creative' games.

kernel

Isn't that a bit of a catch-22? The high prices are one reason people buy 2nd hand to start with. Reduce the initial price first and see what happens

I'm also very dubious over downloads just now. DRM is the issue, I have several bits of media which are totally useless to me as through upgrades of hardware or software they DRM system has decided the license is no longer valid.

messiah

What I was hinting at was that the prices of the Arcade games on the marketplace never come down, if full retail games go the same way then if you were mad enough to want to play Perfect Dark Zero, they'd probably still rush you £50 like it was on launch day, rather than the £3.99 it would be in GameStation's bargain bucket.

Like someone has said, it would be the retailers being shafted - no retailer's = no competition... doesnt matter if its a game or a movie.

We may well see some full "retail" games being avaialble via DL and it'll be interesting to see how it compares pricewise to the disc based version in the long-term - Sony have already tried it with Warhawk, and WipEout HD is going to be a PSN exclusive.

bob269

Not true, Doom and a couple of others i forget which are now re-released at half price.

messiah

Fair enough, but a lot of older retail games can be bought for about 20% (even 10%) of their original price.

The world just isn't ready for 100% digital distribution, and won't be by the time the 360 gets replaced - would be brilliant if the technology etc required was in place globally (probably already is in Japan / Korea) but the UK is a years behind them.

Maybe I'm just bitter 'cos the fastest connection I can get 1.6mb

Geezer

Surely that's true of any second hand goods, from cars to clothes. I don't think it's a problem for the games industry any more than any other industry?

Geezer

PeteBrant

It is because there are shops doing big business on Pre-owned games.
Not one penny of that goes becack into the industry as with new sales. It is all swallowed by the likes of GAME.

As far as the industry is concerned, there is no difference whatsoever between a pirated game and a pre-owned one.

I would be quite happy to see the whole pre-owned industry be outlawed (bearing in mind there is a difference between sheer profiteering as with pre-owned, and seeling you stuff second hand on ebay)

bob269

Older games generally get re-released as budget priced titles, some people still prefer new to old and these make it more affordable.

rik1471

I fixed it for you

PeteBrant

Sure But it's the only figure that matter - I.e. the one that earns you money.

messiah

2 games side by side - 1 in the original packaging and the other with "Classics Collection" stamped all over it - people will always go for the original packet for fear of being branded a tight git.

Was in GAME at lunchtime and the pre-owned Sega Rally was a fiver more than a new copy - WTF?

It wasn't too long ago that Sony were being slated at the prospect of PS3 games being registered to a specific console - it didn't materialise in the end. I for one, wouldnt spend £40-£50 on a game if it meant being stuck with it for the rest of its natural, there's nothing wrong with 2nd hand games - its great picking up a little gem for a tenner or less - for example - I loved Just Cause, but I wouldn't have paid full whack for it...

bob269

Totally agree, i can't afford to pay full price for every game i want, so if forced then i wouldn't have bought the console at all.

Theres also a lot of second rate crap being released, rainbow 6 v2 should never have been released at full price.

Mr.Manchester

True, that game is full of glitches, just like the original.

Ive been through the game 4 times now and still not got the "realistic" achievement even though i have done it on realistic.

messiah

You've not been suffering the same problem as was in the first, you get killed and the game reverts to normal for the next chapter?

The recommended way is to select each act seperately from the mission select screen rather than choosing continue...

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

GAME, and other retailers, ARE part of the industry!!

If they didn't make anything from the s/h games, they'd have to put up their prices on new ones. Instead of having the choice between paying full price now or a reduced price later, the ONLY option they'd have would be to pay even more than today's full price.

So, you'd rather pay full price, PLUS the increased retailer margin that they'd have to charge, AND have no possibility of then trading in a game once you've finished with it in order to reduce your total outlay?

Why not just leave your wallet open in the street?

Do you not believe in rentals either?

bob269

You have to play level 1 on co-op then the achievement pops up, did for me anyways.

Iain Young

Interesting point of view. How is selling 2nd hand games any different to selling 2nd hand cds, 2nd hand dvds, 2nd hand books, or even 2nd hand cars. In those cases it's perfectly legal and none of the money goes back to the manufacturer. I don't see why games should be a special case, so are you advocating that it should be illegal to sell anything 2nd hand for profit? If so, I think you may be onto a bit of a loser there

PeteBrant

Debateable.
Don't be daft, online retailers such as Amazon et al seem to manage just fine without having a Preowned section, as do other high street retailers such as HMV, Woolies, Tescos, Smiths, all of whom manage to sell games at RRP and often much cheaper than GAME without taking pre-owns.

Rubbish

You would have full price and budget, and of course private second hand.


Stop talking rubbish!


I could sell it on ebay, which is what I do, rather than trade it in to parasitic ****s like GAME.


Rentals is a dodgy area. I'm sort of ok with it.

PeteBrant

To take cars for starters, which is the only other industry that has a bigger second han dmarket than games.

There is a feedback though to the original manufacturer with spares and servicing.
In other words, second hand sales are still a revenue stream for the car manufacturers.

Pre-owned games are nothing like this. There is no feed back to the developer/publisher at all. It is sheer profit for the likes of GAME. And for what? Doing absoltuetly nothing. It is taking money directly out of the industry.


With regards to CDs/DVD etc, the second hand market for these items is insignificant compared to games. When was the last time you walked into HMV's pre-owned section?

Private second hand sales for games are no problem/ Ebay transaction and the like.

I just have a problem with the massive revenue stolen from developers and publishers through pre-owns by GAME.

It is utterly parasitic.

If GAME were to say, "ok, we'll give you a pound for every pre-own sold" then I wouldnt have a problem.


I have nbo problem with selling things second hand, even for profit - But when it is done on the scale that GAME do it, it is really taking the ****.