GT5 - don't hold your breath...
02 July 2007, 12:10 PM
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GT5 - don't hold your breath...
Was looking forward to trying this game, but it has now officially been pushed back, possibly to late 2008, and won't be featuring any kind of damage modeling !! Think I'll be giving it a miss...
Speaking with US-based Car and Drive magazine, Yamauchi touted spring 2008 as the earliest that the game could see release, but affirmed that Sony is more than willing to push that date back to the end of the year should his team need more time.
Yamauchi made reference to the cars as being one of the key time-consuming aspects of developing the game. It's taking 180 days for someone to build a car in the levels of detail required for GT5, as oppose to 30 days for GT3 and just one day for the original GT on PSone.
Crash damage has also once again been ruled out, Yamauchi saying that some companies don't want their cars smashed up in the game (despite damage featuring on the licensed cars of PGR, Forza and other games).
He also says adding the perfect damage system would mean changing the physics model of the game, and modelling each panel of every car separately, both normal and crumpled, with different lighting and shadows. Again, if other games can do it, why can't GT? They're not exactly short of time.
He did say, however, that crash damage could possibly be delivered as a post-release download
Yamauchi made reference to the cars as being one of the key time-consuming aspects of developing the game. It's taking 180 days for someone to build a car in the levels of detail required for GT5, as oppose to 30 days for GT3 and just one day for the original GT on PSone.
Crash damage has also once again been ruled out, Yamauchi saying that some companies don't want their cars smashed up in the game (despite damage featuring on the licensed cars of PGR, Forza and other games).
He also says adding the perfect damage system would mean changing the physics model of the game, and modelling each panel of every car separately, both normal and crumpled, with different lighting and shadows. Again, if other games can do it, why can't GT? They're not exactly short of time.
He did say, however, that crash damage could possibly be delivered as a post-release download
02 July 2007, 12:13 PM
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Every other GT game has seen huge delays - 5 should be no different... but will still be something special when it finally appears.
02 July 2007, 12:17 PM
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I bet it's superb but I'd feel it's missing something without some kind of damage model. On Forza the way the wheel changes the feel of the car with even light damage s superb. Adds so much to the game.
02 July 2007, 12:25 PM
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Sounds like GT5 is just going to be another "pretty" arcade game. Doesn't bode well if they have got to change the entire physics model in the game to support any form of damage, (doesn't sound as though the handling will be too realistic).
02 July 2007, 12:32 PM
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Not really. How can you have realistic handling without any form of damage / wear&tear modeling? Answer - you can't (unless someone invents some tires that never wear out or overheat)...
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02 July 2007, 12:50 PM
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I'd say the damage and handling are separate but I see your point. With regards to the tyres maybe they'll include wear and tear? It's not the same as damage to the way the car looks which seems to be the basis for omission.
02 July 2007, 01:02 PM
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D'oh!! I can't believe they're not including damage modelling. That should have been the second thing on the spec sheet for the new PS3 game engine (after WAN multiplayer)
I'm not surprised the release date has slipped - given how long the development time was for Forza2 on Xbox360, GT5 is looking to be the same - roughly 1.5yrs after the console is released.
I do agree with Iain though about the Gran Turismo franchise in general - they definitely need to get their finger out instead of upgrading the graphics engine and tweaking the physics. I think people are getting sick of seeing prettier cars and very little else in the way of evolving the game.
I'm not surprised the release date has slipped - given how long the development time was for Forza2 on Xbox360, GT5 is looking to be the same - roughly 1.5yrs after the console is released.
I do agree with Iain though about the Gran Turismo franchise in general - they definitely need to get their finger out instead of upgrading the graphics engine and tweaking the physics. I think people are getting sick of seeing prettier cars and very little else in the way of evolving the game.
02 July 2007, 01:03 PM
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True. Given the "huge power" of the new machine, I would have thought some attempt would have been made to do this. It's just sounding like it'll be the same old game again, just with higher res models at the moment...
02 July 2007, 01:47 PM
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02 July 2007, 02:09 PM
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Not really. Just when something claims to be a sim, I expect it to be one. If all they are creating is an arcade game, then fair enough 
02 July 2007, 02:13 PM
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After Forza 2 constantly for the last couple of weeks, damage to cars has caused no end of arguments - basically hardly anyone will admit liability when an accident occurs, and no-one will budge an inch going into the first corner. Tend to race with damage off now to stop falling's out.
Damage I can live without, there are more important things I'd like to see included, starting with an increased no. of competitiors - the GT series has always had a woeful 6, but PGR & Forza arent much better giving 8 - GT5 is supposed to offering 22.
Forza 2 is really starting to get tedious for me - I think they've missed an opportunity with it, it could have been something really special.
Damage I can live without, there are more important things I'd like to see included, starting with an increased no. of competitiors - the GT series has always had a woeful 6, but PGR & Forza arent much better giving 8 - GT5 is supposed to offering 22.
Forza 2 is really starting to get tedious for me - I think they've missed an opportunity with it, it could have been something really special.
02 July 2007, 02:28 PM
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After Forza 2 constantly for the last couple of weeks, damage to cars has caused no end of arguments - basically hardly anyone will admit liability when an accident occurs, and no-one will budge an inch going into the first corner. Tend to race with damage off now to stop falling's out.
Damage I can live without, there are more important things I'd like to see included, starting with an increased no. of competitiors - the GT series has always had a woeful 6, but PGR & Forza arent much better giving 8 - GT5 is supposed to offering 22.
Forza 2 is really starting to get tedious for me - I think they've missed an opportunity with it, it could have been something really special.
Damage I can live without, there are more important things I'd like to see included, starting with an increased no. of competitiors - the GT series has always had a woeful 6, but PGR & Forza arent much better giving 8 - GT5 is supposed to offering 22.
Forza 2 is really starting to get tedious for me - I think they've missed an opportunity with it, it could have been something really special.
I get what you're saying about the damage but I was on one this weekend without damage and I left as it was like dodgems. People would clip your rear end deliberately with no real consequence to them.
02 July 2007, 02:28 PM
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What, you mean like the car damage in Forza? 
It's not what you would call realisitic is it. I mean if I hit a wall at 100 mph, there is no way I would be able to carry on driving with a "Slight pull to the right and a bit of smoke coming out the back".
It's all about accesibility. Forza has some sim aspects, so does GT (The car handling model in GT is fantastic, so is the one in forza). But neither is a GPL or GTR territory, or even F355 Challenge.
GT has tyre wear, you have to consider your style of driving, especially in endurance arces, which regards to whether it is fuel or tyres that will force you to pit.
Forza is no better than GT in this respect. The damage model is almost identical, the fact that you can bring up lots of numbers and graphs doesn't make it any better - It's just algorithms at the end of the day; simply numbers.
The Best thing about forza is that whilst the damage model isn't realistic, it does have an effect - It forces you to actually race and not just barge people out of the way for fear of causing yourself damage.
To this end I do not understand the polyphony stance - Damage does not *need* to be graphically represented in order to work. You can simulate a poorly functioning car without having crumpled wings etc.
It's not what you would call realisitic is it. I mean if I hit a wall at 100 mph, there is no way I would be able to carry on driving with a "Slight pull to the right and a bit of smoke coming out the back".
It's all about accesibility. Forza has some sim aspects, so does GT (The car handling model in GT is fantastic, so is the one in forza). But neither is a GPL or GTR territory, or even F355 Challenge.
GT has tyre wear, you have to consider your style of driving, especially in endurance arces, which regards to whether it is fuel or tyres that will force you to pit.
Forza is no better than GT in this respect. The damage model is almost identical, the fact that you can bring up lots of numbers and graphs doesn't make it any better - It's just algorithms at the end of the day; simply numbers.
The Best thing about forza is that whilst the damage model isn't realistic, it does have an effect - It forces you to actually race and not just barge people out of the way for fear of causing yourself damage.
To this end I do not understand the polyphony stance - Damage does not *need* to be graphically represented in order to work. You can simulate a poorly functioning car without having crumpled wings etc.
02 July 2007, 02:31 PM
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)Far too many tossers out there.
02 July 2007, 02:36 PM
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Not really. I don't think the damage model in Forza is that great either, (a disappointing to be honest). At least they've made some attempt though...
Sort of. But the tire wear is not really dictated by driving style. From my experience with the game, the tires seemed to wear exactly the same whether I drove like a loony or was nice and smooth.
Erm, not really.
Although crumpled wings themselves can have an aerodynamic effect.
However, my point is that with all the extra alledged processing power of the PS3, why are we still seeing games being developed that apart from some higher resolution textures, are no better than the ps2 versions from x number of years ago. Personally I think it's down to lazy developers rather than the machine itself...
GT has tyre wear, you have to consider your style of driving, especially in endurance arces, which regards to whether it is fuel or tyres that will force you to pit.
The damage model is almost identical, the fact that you can bring up lots of numbers and graphs doesn't make it any better - It's just algorithms at the end of the day; simply numbers.
To this end I do not understand the polyphony stance - Damage does not *need* to be graphically represented in order to work. You can simulate a poorly functioning car without having crumpled wings etc.
However, my point is that with all the extra alledged processing power of the PS3, why are we still seeing games being developed that apart from some higher resolution textures, are no better than the ps2 versions from x number of years ago. Personally I think it's down to lazy developers rather than the machine itself...
02 July 2007, 02:36 PM
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I've thought for a while that the GT series could include damage without actually showing it on the outside - some might see it as a bit of a cop-out but I think it would work well. I always drive with bumpercam also, so I never see any crumpled panels on my cars (not that I crash a lot mind you!)
In Forza, even if damage is set to cosmetic, it still has an effect as wings get smashed up and you lose downforce. Forza 2 handles damage pretty well but I just wished that after you've been in the pits to get repaired, the car drove the same as it did before the smash becuse you never get fully repaired.
In Forza, even if damage is set to cosmetic, it still has an effect as wings get smashed up and you lose downforce. Forza 2 handles damage pretty well but I just wished that after you've been in the pits to get repaired, the car drove the same as it did before the smash becuse you never get fully repaired.
02 July 2007, 02:37 PM
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02 July 2007, 02:44 PM
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you lot need to try liveforspeed on the pc, i think there's space for 36 racers on the grid now 
and you can do false starts
turn1 on a decent racing server is pretty much clean, the general public servers can be a bit of a nitemare.
what i have been doing on forza, especially on the general public racing is just hang back at the start line and watch the T1 carnage, then pass half the pack with ease
and after tweaking the 22b setup last night i tried to melt the tyres but they only go up to approx 295 degrees and then just sit there, this was with a constant donut, pretty gay IMO
liveforspeed would have had the tyres blow at 200 degrees
i agree with the game getting a bit tedious, im at about level 38, time trails and arcade mode done, so i`m only playing it in little stages just for the achievement points
its not "fun" anymore.......
infact i have just had about 4 days off from work and spent most of them playing gears of war multiplayer!
and you can do false starts
turn1 on a decent racing server is pretty much clean, the general public servers can be a bit of a nitemare.
what i have been doing on forza, especially on the general public racing is just hang back at the start line and watch the T1 carnage, then pass half the pack with ease
and after tweaking the 22b setup last night i tried to melt the tyres but they only go up to approx 295 degrees and then just sit there, this was with a constant donut, pretty gay IMO
liveforspeed would have had the tyres blow at 200 degrees
i agree with the game getting a bit tedious, im at about level 38, time trails and arcade mode done, so i`m only playing it in little stages just for the achievement points
its not "fun" anymore.......infact i have just had about 4 days off from work and spent most of them playing gears of war multiplayer!
Last edited by StickyMicky; 02 July 2007 at 02:47 PM.
02 July 2007, 02:54 PM
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02 July 2007, 03:00 PM
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I'll tend to do 2 games at once and switch between them when 1 is getting boring or irritating. Havent done that this time for some reason, and I've plenty to be getting on with with about 30 games sat there asking for attention...
02 July 2007, 03:00 PM
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Lets not fall out, there's still years to go before GT5 will be out anyway. Chances are Forza 3 will be out at the same time by then!
What REALLY lets Forza 2 down for me is the lack of tracks. I know they'll be releasing some as DLC (prolly charged for them) but even now, with maybe 50% of the game done, I'm stick and tired of going round the same tracks time and again!
GT5 will look fantastic I'm sure, but not putting some sort of damage modelling in is terrible (I see they're still using the "Car manufacturers won't let us" bollox
).
I have to say, the tirewear on F2 is good although I don't see any easy way of telling how worn they are?! OK it's easy enough to see their temp as the colour changes but the actual wear rate, the only way I can see is to flick on the telemetry and scroll across? Why they could have had a little bar next to each wheel to tell you I don't know!
What REALLY lets Forza 2 down for me is the lack of tracks. I know they'll be releasing some as DLC (prolly charged for them) but even now, with maybe 50% of the game done, I'm stick and tired of going round the same tracks time and again!
GT5 will look fantastic I'm sure, but not putting some sort of damage modelling in is terrible (I see they're still using the "Car manufacturers won't let us" bollox
).I have to say, the tirewear on F2 is good although I don't see any easy way of telling how worn they are?! OK it's easy enough to see their temp as the colour changes but the actual wear rate, the only way I can see is to flick on the telemetry and scroll across? Why they could have had a little bar next to each wheel to tell you I don't know!
02 July 2007, 03:08 PM
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Lets not fall out, there's still years to go before GT5 will be out anyway. Chances are Forza 3 will be out at the same time by then!
What REALLY lets Forza 2 down for me is the lack of tracks. I know they'll be releasing some as DLC (prolly charged for them) but even now, with maybe 50% of the game done, I'm stick and tired of going round the same tracks time and again!
GT5 will look fantastic I'm sure, but not putting some sort of damage modelling in is terrible (I see they're still using the "Car manufacturers won't let us" bollox ).
I have to say, the tirewear on F2 is good although I don't see any easy way of telling how worn they are?! OK it's easy enough to see their temp as the colour changes but the actual wear rate, the only way I can see is to flick on the telemetry and scroll across? Why they could have had a little bar next to each wheel to tell you I don't know!
What REALLY lets Forza 2 down for me is the lack of tracks. I know they'll be releasing some as DLC (prolly charged for them) but even now, with maybe 50% of the game done, I'm stick and tired of going round the same tracks time and again!
GT5 will look fantastic I'm sure, but not putting some sort of damage modelling in is terrible (I see they're still using the "Car manufacturers won't let us" bollox
).I have to say, the tirewear on F2 is good although I don't see any easy way of telling how worn they are?! OK it's easy enough to see their temp as the colour changes but the actual wear rate, the only way I can see is to flick on the telemetry and scroll across? Why they could have had a little bar next to each wheel to tell you I don't know!
They go yellow in the damage icon I think.