ptholt

ive been out of work for a little while now (contract test manager if anyones interested ) and the market is flatter than a pancake at the mo.

two things that i've seen that are really scary are as follows :-

1. got a call lunchtime on a friday for a manual tester role in hook for an insurance co, £11 per hour - no thanks says i.
An agent i know really well calls me three hours later, insurance company in hook, manual tester £28 per hour with them having there norm 15% (£28 contractor pay, agent charges 15% on top). So that means that the first agent is creaming somewhere in the region of £17 per hour + 15%!!!

2. got offered a role last friday afternoon in bracknell for mortgage company client wanting a system test manager. £35 per hour, good role, good job but only short contract (max 3 months). Agent calls me friday afternoon to give me start details and send contract. This is one of the biggest agencies going, probably with the largest number of contractors on there books in uk currently.
Agent explains that payment scales are stricly monthly only (dont get paid till second week of following month!) with no exceptions (in six years ive only ever been paid weekly and kinda used to it) only on original paperwork (if you miss bacs cut off wait till second week of following month) other agents ive used accepted, faxes, emails and even one verbally! I had to provide 2 million quids worth of my own professional indemnity cover (this is apparently becoming a common occurence) in the first 4 weeks (even though not paid for 6 weeks) and a contract with a lovely statement saying that it is the contractors obligation to pay relevant tax,VAT & NI on each months invoice total - oo thanks for that.

I did some digging through friends none of whom had a good word to say about the agency involved, spoke to a friend at dunn & bradstreet who had even worse news along the lines of they went monthly pay some time ago because they couldnt afford to pay contractors weekly as they cannot factor because there credit rating/history is so poor.

Agent refused to send me copy of contract before i was due to start work on monday morning (hmm) spoke to him on the way there asking about certain clauses i had been told to look out for, he confirmed those clauses were there and that if i didnt like it i could lump it as there's plenty of other contractors on the market.

So i turned the car round halfway to bracknell and came back home and emailed him saying i'd decided to lump it.

Probably not the best thing to do but personally having had one agent go belly up on me, i didnt want another! (fortunately it was weekly and i lost nothing, but imagine being 5 weeks down when they couldnt pay!).

Edited to say that the mortgage company role was £35 per hour with client paying £49, so still a pretty decent markup at almost 29%!

[Edited by ptholt - 9/5/2002 2:54:12 PM]

ptholt

Marko-

"I see nothing there that's unreasonable. Getting paid weekly is almost unheard of for a professional contractor. Monthly is the norm. PI and liability insurance is also fairly standard - I have to have massive levels of cover (£1k+ of premium) for my contract. And who, exactly, were you expecting to pay the tax, VAT and NI if it wasn't you?"

Well in six years i've had nothing but weekly pay and have never known any of my friends be on anything other than weekly, though i doubt that has anything to do with our professionalism??!! Am sure everyone on weekly pay is not considered less professional lol.

Likewise PI + Liability, i don't know anyone (excluding you) who's currently paying it but know I 3 guys who are directors of medium sized agencies that are now starting to bring it in to certain roles but i thought asking for it up front and not paying for six weeks was taking the mick a little, the premium quoted btw was £1500. As for 'who were you expecting to pay the tax' etc if you've signed a contract that clearly states YOU have to pay tax/ni/vat on the invoice GROSS amount per month don't ever attempt to try to say that contract is outside ir35 when you've just signed that you will pay all taxes on gross invoice amounts...... interestingly the above mentioned 3 guys all say an agent can not put this into a contract, but i now know two agencies saying it to remove themselves from any ir35 throwbacks the revenue may pass there way.

It all comes down to what your used to, after 12 years in IT, 6 contracting on weekly rates thats what im used to and used to budgeting for, if your used to monthly then fair enough but i seriously doubt it affects yours or my professionalism lol.


[Edited by ptholt - 9/5/2002 4:39:24 PM]

Thin Client

for more than 4 months.

Is this for real? Someone told me they saw this in IT Week magazine?

How are you guys finding the "marketplace"?

HAve to say, I can't believe how low some of the rates are now. Less than £10/hr for some of the stuff on Jobserve!

MarkO

For what sort of job, exactly?

krankyd

I'm a unix contractor, and I'm still in employment. Just been extended for another 6 months as well

Market looks a bit flat, but I've not really looked around a lot. the recient hba visa withdraw is a good thing for the UK staff, so mabey this will help things pick up a bit..


as they say, though, anyone will be desperate for any work, no matter how ****e payed it is!

Thin Client

MarkO

http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=525643483784989A

Frightening really!

Lust4Life

Mark, it's probably a 1st/2nd line support job on Windows.

Too many people believe the ads in the back of the paper promising £40k pa if they do a £2k MCSE course and then find out that it counts for dick without experience so they work for peanuts.

The market is due for a turn towards the end of the year though hopefully.

Any luck finding a job in Edinburgh?

Cheers,

Phil

Lust4Life

I stand corrected it would seem.

I can't believe they'll get a decent ASP developer for £10 though.

Cheers,

Phil

Jeff Wiltshire

About 6 months ago I was asked to quote for a 1 day Nokia/Checkpoint upgrade....

I quoted £550
Guy A Quoted £600
Guy B Quoted £150


I got the job but the agency said that the £150 Guy (B) had as much quals & experience as I have (on paper).....

Frightening to think what some people are reduced too.....



Jeff

chiark

****!

Problem is that there's a LOT of dross out there in the contractor market. People think that they know a bit so can charge top dollar. People who've read a book. People who've done their mate's website. People who think that because they can spell Windows they know it all... They've been found out.

I guess everyone has experience of working with a contractor that's a right pillock. You wonder how on earth they submit an invoice at the end of the day...

However, saying this, two of the best people I have ever worked with are contractors and deserve whatever they ask for.

I hope that the dross will 'k off, get other jobs not in IT and the situation will return to normal. This period, if nothing else, may act as quality control?

There was a point to this outburst of mine, but the author has forgotten it.

MarkO

They won't. I couldn't see the page here (jobserve blocked on websense) but it's either a mickey-mouse operation, or they're talking about a very junior position.Haven't really started looking in earnest yet, as we've not sold the house yet. We've got a couple of viewings this weekend though, and once we get moving on that and we've got a rented base in Scotland, I'll start to look properly. I can't start looking for a contract now that'll be due to start in January/February....

Mark

Lust4Life

Developer Contract

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ASP Developer, with experience of VB, COM and SQL Server database work. The rate is not negotiable and the person will be required on site full time. Previous applicants need not apply.Please E-mail your CV- candidates who are a closest match to the requirement will be contacted- many thanks.

Location Worcestershire
Start Date ASAP
Duration 2-3 months
Salary/Rate 10/Hour
Posted Date 04/09/2002 15:48:46

As if by magic

Thin Client

chiark

I agree totally with you.

I guess now's the time to be training hard.
.NET here I come!!

MarkO

Thanks Lust.

From the attitude of the advert, and the skills required, I suspect they'll be waiting a fairly long time before they fill the position!

carl

There are quite a few Cisco positions (in London ) that are around 10-11/hr on Jobserve. Also some fairly senior network design positions (again, London-based) for around £250/day.

MarkO

Yeah, but any muppet can do Cisco.

As for the £250/day positions, frankly I'd say that's a pretty bloody good rate. It equates to about £50k/annum.....

carl

What, for London? Bear in mind that it equates to around £50k minus the employer's NI (11.8%), i.e. around £44k.

PS: anyone can be a code-monkey, too

MarkO

I know what it equates to. I'm a contractor, and have been for 7 years.

And you're assuming the contract falls within IR35. Which, of course, it probably doesn't. So the Employer's NI would be significantly less.

But the fact remains that £44k gross is still a very good salary, in London or out of it. It's around 50% higher than the average London salary....

No, we're talking about real code, not some noddy language like VB.

carl

Then factor in the greater risk of your contract being terminated (as opposed to a permie). I reckon on keeping three months' money aside which is another 11k in this case.

BTW what do you mean 'real code' I thought you were a C/C++ developer (code-monkey) ?

Foot_Tapper

Hi guys, thought i might put in 2p's worth.
Yea the market is totally cr@p.
I spose a few factors involved;
companies tightening their belts,
sept 11 th (although i think thats bulls1T)
dotcoms crashing (company i was contracting for pulled out of that market altogether.the company is US run..say no more)

FTV's

agencies exploiting the issue that there are a lot fewer jobs; to give even lower rates. ie They charge the company maybe £2 less, but will give a contractor £5 less. And i know this has happened.

There will always be contractors, bad & good; but everyone suufers from the rate drop.
I saw an ad on jobserve & called the guy....asked him about the
£5 hourly rate for 2nd line with experience...no much response;
especially when i said after tax that was below the minimum
hourly wage. Dont know where it will end.

MarkO

That's why you're getting paid 44k, and not < 30k which is what a permanent senior techie would get.Surely you've already got that money put aside though? So what's it got to do with the 44k?

And besides, I've never put 3 months' money aside in all the time I've been contracting. In fact, most months I usually run out of cash before the next invoice gets paid. I am. But not everyone can be a C++ monkey, whereas anyone can be a VB code monkey.

dsmith

MarkO

Back in your box, code monkey . There are jobs out there paying more but £250/Day for a good network designer is not great.

Deano
(Permie Cisco Muppet whos knows many contractors getting far more than they should )

MarkO

On a short-term contract (< 3 months) perhaps. But most contractors I know stay in the same position for much longer (they're effectively permies, but don't tell the IR ).

I've been in my current 'short-term' contract for nearly 5 years now. Contracting, like all jobs, has nothing to do with what you're worth. It's simply a matter of what you can persuade them to pay.

Lust4Life

It ain't what you got, it's what they think you've got

Cheers,

Phil

MarkO

When I started working here 4.5 years ago, I was on £40/hour. I found out that the agent was taking £16/hour commission, plus a lump sum of about £12k as an introductory fee.

Luckily we managed to cut the agent out of the loop a year later, meaning my client got me for a lot cheaper, and I got a nice £8/hour rate rise.

GaryK

Yes £16 a hour for doing.....hmmm like most very little, I always think agents earn their money when resolving issues but that doesn't happen too often, they just sit back and let the money roll in!

Gary

MrDeference

That's the rub. The market is being depressed by the agencies, who have got fat on the way it was whilst managing to put themselves in a position of power. (Try putting a non-agency advert on Jobserve... they have it by the *****).
So, they are using their power to squeeze their 90's style profit out of the little man (you + me).

If people in IT were more prepared to find themselves a job, rather than going to an agency to do it, the whole sector would be better off. Recruitment consultants are middle men, who make money by making a simple process very difficult indeed.

MarkO

Erm, you made a typo - clearly when you typed 'middle men' you actually intended to type 'scum'.

GaryK

MrD,

Agreed, I contracted for 7 years and spent the last two working direct but it is *tough* to get the leads. But hey it can be done and what have I lost by not working thru and agency...errr absolutely nothing! I thought it might help with these so called 'project' sites like elance etc. but people then put in ridiculously cheap bids for projects which undermines everything.

Gary

MrDeference

GaryK,
Interesting, I wonder who is putting in those cheap bids...

Couldn't be agencies trying to undermine the site, could it?