speedking

Don't think is exactly covered in other related threads.

I hope that the security services have people who are employed to think about all potential threat scenarios to the British public, and that appropriate countermeasures are deployed.

Surely they must have previously thought about liquid explosives, and building a carry on bomb from separate components ?? These are not brand new ideas.

So why now, after uncovering a plot (allegedly), have new security measures had to be put in place? Why were we inadequately protected previously?

Discuss.

OllyK

If somebody wants to take a plane out, they'll find a way. Unless you propose to ban people taking luggage on passenger planes, and only allow people to board naked following a intimate KJ requiring body search, there is only any point dealing with security to a reasonable level unless there is a specific threat.

stilover

Someone pointed out before, if they want to bring a plane down, why don't they just drive up to the outskirts of Heathrow, and launch a rocket at it. If they can get hold of other explosives, they could get a rocket with launcher.

There goal would still be achieved, and it would have the same affect on flying as 9/11 did. You'd be less inclined to board a plane if you doubted it would even get off the runway, wouldn't you?

Getting a woman to taste Baby milk or ban reading a book on board as it could have a paper thin bomb within it's pages is rediculous.

OllyK

I think part of the thinking here is the "suicide" part, martyring themselves for the cause. Plus you will more than likely kill more people by blowing up 9 or so planes in the air rather than maybe getting 2 or 3 on the ground before you get ht.

OllyK

As has been pointed out elsewhere - the government's handling of this is playing in to the terrorists hands.

stilover

Unless you had several groups. 1 outside of heathrow, 1 outside of Stanstead, etc, etc. You could hit quite a few planes before you got shot at.

stilover

And the Governments too. Give it a week or two, and the whole ID Cards will crop up again. They'll say that this is why we need ID cards more than ever, to stop terrorists. Oh yes, and we'll charge you £350+ for the privilage.

OllyK

Sure - but we get back to the martyr bit plus it easier to build a small bomb and detonate it yourself than building rockets that will detontate on impact. The former you can make from household ingredients in a few hours.

JPL

Surely you could get 2 people, each to have some kind of liquid, that when mixed can be explosive, and stick it up each others @rses, or attach it via string and swallow, then gag it up later.

Mix that together and you have your liquid bomb. (Perhaps you might need a metal tube or similar to target it.)

For the detonator... they still allow watches, I have an Omega, which is pretty big, a Breitling is massive, surely a fake could be empty enough inside to hold something like a detonator?

Not exactly James Bond stuff... if they want to do it, there are ways that are undetectable at present.

BTW... I fly to Cyprus on Sunday But fvck 'em, they'll get their come uppance when they die and they realise 50 virgins are NOT waiting for them... and it's all black and nothing

OllyK

On indeed, it won't be harming their case for those. However I still don't see how an ID card would have stopped this incident any sooner or prevented the 7/7 attack, these are home grown terrorists who would have had a valid ID card anyway.

JPL

Exactly, what would an ID card do? I'm not against them, but in this case I can't see how it would help anything.

OllyK

I understand they planned to use the flash from disposable cameras as the detonators. Makes sense, you can use fine steel wool and a 9v battery.

davegtt

You racist you!!!!

OllyK

I'm against them because I can see no benefit from having one, I can see plenty of problems with f**ked up data records, black market in clones, and the cost.

Leslie

Stilover,

Some time ago there was a special force tasked with preventing terrorists from shooting an aircraft down on the approach to land or after takeoff with a SAM7 shoulder fired missile at Heathrow, and probably other airports as well.

I am sure that if there was intelligence of such a possible action it would be put in place.

Les

messiah

I heard the liquid was supposedly going to be taken on board in a baby's bottle. Seeing as I'm flying off with a toddler in a couple of weeks, I'm going to be having fun at the airport.

So are they banning you from taking everything on board except your travel documents? Do I have to try and smuggle my PSP up my **** or something?

JPL

Knew someone would say that!

Leslie

I am against ID cards since the information that the government want to put on is very wide ranging and it would be too easy to obtain that information by hacking.

It is also unwise to allow a government to be able to access so much personal information at the touch of a button. Just the sort of thing a repressive government and police state would love of course! I am not prepared to trust politicians with that sort of power.

Les

JPL

From what I've heard... Once through security, (at Gatwick this is), you are then allowed to purchase duty free, perfume, drinks, whatever. The security check is done and you are left to your own devices.

So... and don't flame me here please... Heathrow... Hounslow... big Muslim community... Many probably work at the cafes in the duty free area... bring in their flask... meet a mate who's bought a ticket... work out the rest.

Sounds easy if they really want to do it.

Iwan

There are probably shedloads of liquid type explosives that can be made, the info is all over the internet if you look for it. At chemistry lessons in school, I was shown how glycerine and potassium permanganate spontaniously combust a few minutes after being mixed.

Nitroglycerine is an explosive which can be made from nitric acid and glycerine if you know how. It's very unstable and can explode while it's being made, but that doesn't exactly matter if you are mixing it in the toilet of an airliner and are planning to die anyway. This has been around for yonks, I'm sure there are more modern things around too.

Tbh I'm quite happy to have a little extra inconvenience added to my journey, if it stops some loons blowing my plane/train up.

OllyK

Sure, but I'm not convinced the actions at the airports will achieve that. The arrests may well have prevented a terrorist act, however now these security measures are in place it wouldn't take much to find a way to circumvent them. We'll only know if they have been effective if they catch somebody at check-in with explosives, if they aren't well...it doesn't bare thinking about.

KiwiGTI

No, quite clear on BA's site that absolutely no liquids, including duty free, are allowed on the plane.

Airport workers are subject to the same searches as passengers, but I see your point. One of those arrested was a Heathrow employee with an all-area pass apparently.

stilover

If they had the intelligence, then yes they would. But if they didn't .......

stilover

I am.
First off, you have to pay for them, even if your rich, poor etc.
Second, they'll be easily cloned etc. Criminals are always smarter than the Government.
Third, it's just a way for the Government to track you. If you listen when they talk about them, they want the to act as a way of spending money, just like your switch card. So every time you buy something they'll know about it. Every where you go, in time, you'll have to swipe in, meaning a visit to a pub, shop, museum etc, etc, they know where you are and what your doing.

A police state if ever there was, and all snuck in the back door on the "War on terror" cry

Sbradley

It's a popular fallacy that your average shoulder launched SAM could knock down an airliner.

They target heat sources. That's the engines, and anything certified to fly has to have the capability to lose an engine at the critical point and still get airborne safely. Plus most shoulder launched weapons have only a very limited all aspect ability. In other words they need to be fired from behind, when the target is already climbing out.

It's going to get a little busy in the cockpit for a while, but I'd be very surprised if a shoulder launched weapon could cause a catastrophic failure in a commercial aircraft.

SB

PS Not saying I'd like to be on the receiving end, mind you...

stilover

If a shard of metal can bring down Concorde, I think it's a very high possibility that a rocket propelled Grenade could bring down a 747 etc, if hit in the right place. Yes a shoulder rocket launcher is just a bit "point and shoot", but like yourself, I don't think I'd like to be sat on the Plane taking off while they were aiming at it !!

Sbradley

Actually the RPG is something I'd not considered.

Now if they could get it through the fence and hit the cockpit while the aircraft is rolling towards them they could really spoil someone's afternoon...

That's a nasty idea

SB

Markus

I agree about the rocket idea, it's simple and effective. You don't need to be at the airport either, you could wait under the planes flightpath, maybe a few miles away from the airport and take it out.

Also, sod passengers bring things with them, what about baggage handlers/ground crew? They could surely pop in an additional small bag into the cargo hold of a few planes. Or what about in the airline food carts, pop something in there, then it's in the passenger area, rather than the cargo area of the plane.

brihoppy

would you like to be on an airbus or 737 when one of the engines, which is attached to what is essentially a giant fuel tank, explodes...?!

and as for catastrophic mid-air failures, these are what bring aircraft down in normal flight arent they, im sure a rocket attack would be pretty catastrophic...? what about the c-130 that was brought down in iraq...might have been small arms, hmg or manpad but theyre over engineered to buggary and they still got that...!

also, didnt the cia, bless them, equip the mujahadeen with stinger manpads...? how many of them have found their way to al qaeda...?

Sbradley

Nah - a few miles downrange and your target is too high for anything other than a proper SAM. You're going to need guidance for a start, and at that stage you've got a proximity fuse so the chances of a critical hit go through the floor...

SB