elondan

I was shocked when I saw Vicki from Top gear declared RWD as the winner after a short comparison between A4 Quattro 3-series and 156.
I think if they had pitched a Legacy with it's better chassis and better AWD (can transfer as much as 100% of the power to either the front or rear while the A4 can only transfer up to 60%) it would have been a different ball game.
Autocar did a comparison between the Impreza, Elise, 306 GTI, 911 and M3 and the Scoob came out as the undisputed winner, and it was a much complete test.
here is the link:

Scott J Davies

Sorry but Top Gear sucks, I can't believe that they chose a Z3m Conv as the best handling car.

The director, VBH, Quentin Merc Boy and that other Blonde hairdresser aught to be shot.


Note, I leave tiff out because oooooohhhhhh boy can he make a car dance.

Evo magazine publishers, for god sake make a TV program, even if it's fortnightly.



[This message has been edited by Scott J Davies (edited 11-05-2000).]

MarkCSC

Isn't the 156 FWD??

Mark

Whoops didn't read it properly. I take it that the 3 series won? Use some commas!!!

[This message has been edited by Mark Champion (edited 11-05-2000).]

elondan

Yes the 156 is a FWD but it lost, so I didn't mention it in the heading.
the ranking was:
1. BMW - RWD!
2. AUDI - AWD ?
3. ALFA - FWD.

SecretAgentMan

Indeed Tiff is fun to watch!

But the others....blah.

Of course an RWD will oversteer...whoa total shocker...VBH should be shot as a warning example for others. ;-) (just kidding)

I really love it when Tiff starts (ab)using really cool/fast/expensive cars...as the almighty quattro, and the McLaren F1 - his style gives me goosebumps, I don't know how he's able to talk while driving on the edge.

TIFF FOR PRESIDENT! (or PM or whatever...)

:-)

//SAM

DavidRB

The problem with modern AWD drive cars is that they are often spin-offs from FWD cars with drive added to the rear wheels. This means that they often retain their FWD handling characteristics. This compares with the 4WD Sapphire Cosworth which was an RWD car first.

I <I>think</I> that the Scooby is pretty unique in that it was conceived as an AWD car first, with the FWD versions being the spin-offs.

Could be wrong though, anyone know for sure?

GaryC

Tiff is a pr*ck.

The man can drive, and drive well - but any one who judges a car purely on its ability to powerslide around a large, damp, open airfield doesn't get my vote!

But then if I got paid to try and powerslide cars around a large, damp, open airfield......

Lee Masters

The only reason they chose RWD is because they want to show what great drivers they are and, wow, RWD is only for those butch enough to be able to power slide.

AWD they think is for pansys who don't really know how to drive. But as anyone who owns a scooby knows, NOTHING can touch them. Put a good scooby driver on a track against ANYONE in a standard BMW (yes even M3 & M5) and they will be made to look stupid - traction control and all. Make it a wet track, and the BM will not even want to get out of the pit straight. The people at Top Gear know it but it would be too easy to say it, so they choose the BMW.

Lee Masters

Oh and YES, Tif is a complete and utter p****k. Only an idiot would drive and behave like he does. Grow up Tif, if you're reading this, we are not impressed as you think.

SecretAgentMan

Don't speak ill about Tiff, he's cool, and he doesn't seem to take it as serious as some of U guys here...talk about sphincter factor...man...

Wouldn't you love to go slideways in expensive and silly fast cars...?

Did you get your scoobs just to go shopping/posing at the local bar, or to have fun in it...?
Come ON guys, these cars are meant to have fun with, loosen up will ya?

cerbie

didn't I read a mag group test (last month's EVO perhaps) in which the P1 only came second around the track to a Boxster?

>AWD they think is for pansys who don't >really know how to drive. But as anyone who >owns a scooby knows, NOTHING can touch >them. Put a good scooby driver on a track >against ANYONE in a standard BMW (yes even >M3 &

CB1

At a recent track day I watched with interest as a M3 (RWD) belted round. A few things struck me:
1. It looked visable slower than Impreza's and Elise' that were there.
2. It lost out totally to the Impreza's (STD UK cars) on the corners.
3. It was dry!!! (in the morning. The afternoon was wet....it was floundering even more).

Now the M3 is a car I have always respected. I like BM's and have driven a few (owned one). But after that, alittle of the image has been broken.

don't get me wrong, RWD is the business on a circuit. But one this occasion, it looked outclassed.

CB

tiggers

Why are you all getting so upset about the results of a Top Gear handling test. You know how they select the winner of any test:-

Which one has the BMW badge? Right that's the winner.

A lot of BMW's are driven by idiots and a lot of the presenters on Top Gear are idiots so there you go. No surprise.

As for VBH's comment that the RWD BMW was better in am obstacle avoidance test because you can simply apply a little opposite lock to correct the oversteer - yeah that's fine if you know what to do - but the majority of drivers would simply lift off and brake hard and we all know what happens then. Maybe if they'd used a Scooby and driven it properly we would have seen the true result, but we'll never know now will we.

At the end of the day one of the senior managers in my company has driven BMW's for years - currently has a 535 - one drive around the country lanes of Northampton in my Scooby and guess what his next company car will be - yes a Scooby - enough said.

GCollier

I agree with SecretAgentMan, a lot of you guys should just loosen up, and see Top Gear for what it is - namely entertainment.

There seems to be very much a case of selective reading and blinkered vision in effect here. If Autocar or Top Gear say anything good about the scoob (e.g. handling test - and BTW the later Elise was found to have defective suspension, hence the tendency to spin), then it is seized upon and regarded as the gospel truth. Anything bad (e.g. P1 well and truly beaten by Evo 6) is often treated with derision, excuses made, and the individuals who don't worship the impreza like an idol often flamed.

The impreza must be appreciated for what it is, namely one of the most complete and practical drivers "packages" available, which offers good value for money. EVERY car on earth considered, it is certainly not THE fastest, nor THE most fun, nor THE most practical, nor THE best built etc.

So stop whining, appreciate the excellence of the car you own, and stop expecting everyone else to think the same way. I would expect anybody who bought the car on its merits in the first place, rather than because of some glowing magazine article to think this way anyway.


PS: Lee, I'm not a big BMW fan, but if you think that any "good" scoob driver could beat any and all drivers around a track in an M3 Evo, then you are either terribly naive, or terribly blinkered, even by the standard of this thread.

[This message has been edited by GCollier (edited 14-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by GCollier (edited 14-05-2000).]

elondan

This Topic is not about Imprezas, it is about AWD Vs. RWD, and about Vicki's conclusion, that RWD is better also for the normal driver?!
I think Top gear should judge a car by its target market and not to expect every car to be the ultimate powerslide tool.

Nightmare

Elonda - agreed.

I think its safe to say that most would agree that AWD is the 'safest' option for the less experienced driver. RWD is by far the most dangerous.
Most people (please insert those that actually know what they're talking about, not have read or watched someone else and are re-hashing their opinion), however, agree that RWD is more fun, exploitable, and ultimately rewarding.

GCollier has a damn good point as always...stop judging people on what they do on television for entertainment - its embarassing to read frankly.

Tiggers...I do remember SdeB waxing lyrical about and M Coupes handling, so they cant be that bad as he definitely knows what he is talking about but I do think Top Gear may be just a trifle biased...

Night

SDB

Hi All

Nightmare, thanks for the kind words

OK..
1) Tiff is not the god most people would have you believe. Yes he can powerslide a car on a huge airfield, but there really isn't much of a challenge in that. I would be stunned if there was a single person reading this who couldn't do just that with 2 hours 1-1 expert tution. If that is the case, the amount of practice Tiff has been fortunate enough to have, should have provided him with the ability to do it quite a bit better than he does!
It is comical to watch for the lack of car control (in motorsport terms that is - I accept he is better than my Mum Well...?) he actually has.
I could go on and fully explain but I won't bore you

2) As has been pointed out, this is just entertainment. The majority of comments spouted by the motoring media are fueled by the money manufacturers pay them as opposed to any level of testing ability. I guess we should just take it all with a pinch of salt.

3) Z3M.. As much as I hate to say it, Tiff *may* have been right on this occasion. I emphasise the *may*, not to be clever but just to say this...
I really like the Z3M and the M Coupe, I think they are both absolutely stunning cars and one I would challenge almost any AWD car in. But That really proves little about the car, it just means that *I* like it. You may not, in which case, it is no longer a good car. So whilst I happen to agree with Tiff's praise of the Z3M, I would never be so bold as to say it is 'better' than another car, full stop, only that I prefer it to this car or that car.

Lee Master
----------
Re Nothing can touch a scooby on track. I totally understand why you say that, but it really isn't the case. Put a top driver in a two identical cars except one is AWD and the other is RWD on a track, and I'm affriad there are very few situations where the AWD will win.
We can often draw conclusions about this from track days, etc.
A skilled driver in an XR2 could beat a novice in a 22B.
It is unlikely that anybody here has seen a road car taken consistently to its limits for even one lap on a track day, so what you end up with is a huge casm of difference in driver ability. This makes up far more of a difference in time / speed than the cars do.
But..
The reason Scoobies always seem to come out on top is that they are so easy to take to 80% of the limit by a total novice. Take the same two cars.. identical but one AWD and the other RWD.. except this time put a novice behind the wheel and the AWD will almost definately win, not matter what the situation.

AWD is fantastic, RWD is Fantastic...

Horses for courses?

Regards

Simon

elondan

The BMW may well be a nice car to drive but that doesn't mean it is easy to control.
I drove an NSX a really nice car but I managed to spin it on the first onramp I came accross, never in my Scoob.
The reason AWD is not used by racing groups is the added weight, Audi proved that with it's A4 Quattro no one stood a chance on the BTCC so they made them add weight, just to prove.
No one is saying Scoobies are the best and surely no one is saying other cars are cr*p.
Car magazine compared an STI4 and Evo5 and they said that even for them to drive a Ferari is to learn how to drive from start (doesn't mean Feraris are bad cars), they said it emphasize how easy, forgiving and safe! these cars are, in contrast to Vicki's statment regarding RWD and I think a bit reckless, I drove the NSX the way I did because such statements.

GaryC

Simons point re driving skill being main factor was proved two years ago at the Nurenburg (sp?) May weekend. The fastest 'road' car all weekend was a 2.8 Capri with £500 of suspension mods. Faster than all 355s, road Caterham, cerberas, etc etc etc.

The driver was Willie Green - there's the difference!!

I was taken round Donnington by Willie Cars in both a Cerbera and a 911RS - an experiance to stay with me to my grave!

IMO - Never mind £1000 of modification to your car for the track - spend the £1000 on driving tuition!

PaulL

Don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but Top Gear did say (whilst cornering a wet roundabout) that the RWD car had traction control switched on.

They didn't mention this with the AWD or FWD cars, so I assume they didn't.

So there's a nice even competition for you...

Paul L

elondan

I drove a BMW 750il with the traction control switched on and it still behaved like a rear wheel drive, the traction control doesn't create miricales, it just feels like someone stoped the power delievery and it happens after the car already lost it backend, can't match the AWD expirience I had(Audi A8 4.2 Quattro, Legacy and my Impreza).

Mike123

Yes,I read about that 2.8i Capri in Autocar. I think it said that he had the 24V Granada 2.9 engine in and, as has been said before, £500 of suspension mods.
I can remember it going on about how he whittled away the lead a TVR had and eventually went past.

SDB

Re traction control

I was involved in a promotion day for Mercedes at MIRA a couple of weeks ago driving AMGs and the like (tough job, etc.. ).

I have to say, I was stunned by the new ESP system they're running.

Going round the inner lane of the concentric circles, you could just floor it and keep it nailed, then just steer. The computer does the rest. All you do is steer in the direction you want to go.

We are talking about a luxury car with about 350BHP powering the rear wheels, on a surface which has the same grip levels as sheet ice!

I normally hate traction control, esp and the like, I feel it can often make matters worse if you already have a little knowledge (dangerous thing and all that), but I just can't see how you could get into trouble unless you're just going too fast. And even then it has a go!

Not quite sure how it works but it deserves serious respect.

I have to say I far prefered driving the cars without the esp on, but they were a genuine challenge on the limit. So much power, etc. The esp makes it a bloody safe car in the hands of a novice, IMHO (disclaimer - don't take my word for it!! )

Regards

Simon