mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

I will be, when my set of Tein's are refitted.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

The above could well be P1 Red's, but painted grey.
Interesting that the Front P1 Red is marked C34, and the rear Grey one above is marked C35.
They also show signs that the front's in both cases are visibly larger gauge then the rears.
On the other springs under scrutiny, this gauge difference isn't so obvious.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Grey's on 22B ????

http://www.importcarparts.co.uk/part...en=&searchKey=

Also can see the Grey's on the 22B in this clip when he is inspecting the front wheel/brakes :
A Blue one, P/N : 2040055040

http://www.autolinkmx5.com/spring-su...ont-3244-p.asp

2pot

iTrader: (3)

I'd like to be put right on a few technical questions please:
The '97 on bilsteins were matched with eibach 171/140 springs
The '99 on bilstein professionals were matched with eibach 196/168 springs
How can the P1's be an optimal match for both or either of the bilsteins, given they're supposedly 215/195 (is this rate incorrect?), and we know the dis-similar rebound and compression rates of the soft (0.3m/sec 127/53 89/43) and hard (190/60 145/45) bilsteins and the v5/6 sti struts (310/150 210/105) that the P1 springs were were eventually paired with.)

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Along with huge help from 2Pot (cheers mate) I aim to arrange for a set of WR Blues and P1 Red's to be sent off to be profiled over the next week or so (the blues will go off as soon as the weather holds long enough for me to swap back to the STi Pinks).

My decision on what to try next will be based on these results.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Extracted from an old thread of mine :

Used the GoPro for a bit of a comparison.
Footage is the same stretch of road, taken at approx. the same level of attack.

Of particular interest in the Tein's reaction to the drain cover.
It has an initial compression and further bounce then hits the drain cover.

The STi hits the initial compression, doesn't give a second bounce and then takes the drain cover a lot smoother.

Tein

STi Pink

Around town it's a bit more jiggly on the STI Pinks but on a run if feels great, with turn-in much improved and much reduced bounce from the rear.

Gambit

iTrader: (6)

When id the WR Sport springs in my old classic and tried to find info on them the biggest difference i could find compared to the eibach pro-kit was that the WR sport springs where a linear spring compared to eibachs being progressive.

The picture above showing the jdm pink & wr sport rears would confirm it being linear as there are no tight wound coils on it

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

I agree, and if/when I get some made they are likely to be linear on the rear as per the WR butmaybe a touch firmer.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Acquired another set of rear grey eibachs - 20380FA890 17/98 275mm uncompressed.
Be interesting to see the specification difference, if any, to the rear grey c35 26/00, as they look the same.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Well done mate. I'm not sure where you unearthing all these.......

2pot

iTrader: (3)

I spend my working life tracking and cross referencing obscure parts. I just need a cup of tea and a packet of rich tea biscuits, and I'll find it.

That's why the gc/f8 spring situation annoys me so much:
You ring, say camskill, buy a set of kyb struts - std or 15% uprated - what spring set are you going to buy?
They're either too high, too low, too progressive and the wrong rating for the struts!
Not everyone can afford bilstein, Koni inserts or kyb agx's: And even then you've got same issues, with regard to spring sets, as you and I, well know.
On top of that you've got the extra 35kg of rear weight carried by the wagon, and 35kg up front on the six speed conversions.

Surely we can pull together a range of springs specs, that cover most of the bases? Hence my accumulating as much info/gear as possible.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

I've got the Blue's front and back off the car now and back on the STi Pinks, ready to send them off to be profiled next week.
The rear Blue 070 also measures 275mm uncompressed.

The C35 and the 890 look slightly different. The start/end point of the coils are in different positions (in the images above).
The 890 start/finish at approx 180 Degree's to each other, whereas the C35 start/finish about 70 Degree's apart.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

The grey's have arrived, so will try and get a look at these tonight.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

If, as I expect, the 890 is 168, then did prodrive do anything to re-designate it to c35?
Maybe the extra 1/3 of a turn is a, handling related, height increase?
Be interested in the uncompressed height.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Grey C35 Vs Blue 070

Grey has an additional close spaced coil, but is approx the same uncompressed height.
It would appear to contain slightly more progression then the Blue, but more linear the the P1 Red.





The Grey C35 is however a slightly thicker gauge steel. My poor quality vernier set on the Blue's would not fit the Grey without adjustment. The Grey would appear to be about 0.5mm thicker gauge (although that's a bt of a guess with my crappy verniers)



I'm intrigued to see what the Grey does ride height wise, as the subtle progressive nature and the thicker gauge may just work.
I'm in two minds whether to fit it and see or just send it off to get profiled.
The advantage of fitting it is that if it sits around the 648mm level (same as P1) then I won't progress with it any further,

We have the corner/loaded compression for the Blue for the machine to apply, so if the same pressure is applied on the machine to the grey it should report whether the ride height is up or down.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

I wonder what the impact of 1/3 less coil, has on 2 springs of the same height? That 1/3 less, on the 890, looks like it's off the base coil. Does that equal a higher rating?
And some things I didn't know:
A good quality coil spring should settle by less than 1%.
A old spring doesn't lose its load rating, but its load bearing. So that means we can get some good info from that old front blue, and re-instate the 5mm, age related drop.

Also, The wr grey front and the P1 front use an equal coil spacing - I wonder why the lowered pink front uses a more gapped arrangement?

Fat Boy

All these comparisons are interesting, but I don't get the obsession with lowering when its clear from the OP's findings that the P1 springs were the best on the (uk) road

2pot

iTrader: (3)

His bilstein struts were designed for a lower ride height, when paired with the no longer available wr blue/grey springs.
I suppose he wants the original lower ride, with the best performance he can get.
Ideally on a linear/semi linear rear spring - the P1 rear springs being progressive.

Post 3, in this link gives a very good summary.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/suspen...e-springs.html

Typical progressive spring failure:
ae31eccf-7b67-4b4c-a0b8-45ee96d9d129_zps00ddfc8a.jpg?t=1383789109

Interestingly, the AA are reporting a large increase in spring failures:
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice...-breaking.html

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Yep, that sums it up.
The Prodrive WR suspension (Bilsteins with WR springs) sit lower then the P1/STi struts and P1 springs. This is what I am trying to achieve.

As a side effect of this investigation, and using our source for spring manufacture we may end up with a combination of springs for a combination of strut types.

Most agree that the Tein's don't perform well, the Eibach-Pro hardly lower the car (especially STi models) and are rated too soft (I found front end dive quite bad on these when hard/emergency braking).
As mentioned elsewhere, although the P1 springs are quoted as 'lowering' they do very little or anything when compared to an STi (only 7mm lower at the back compared to Eibach-Pro on my car). So people that are unhappy with the stance of the Eibach-Pro would be equally unhappy with the P1 Red.

This thread is therefore about finding an alternative to the ever reducing MacPherson strut coil spring market for a classic impreza, and maybe providing small scale production of such items.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Just been pondering this question, a little more deeply......

Other than the P1 set-up looking, either a little agricultural on a saloon, or saggy-arsed on a wagon.
Do you think there's a particular advantage in the P1 spring ride height, or coil on coil rear spring?
When, some would say, the optimum handling is obtained, with a front/rear 335/340mm wheel centre to arch gap.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Fitted the Grey C35 Rear WR Spec springs on the rear today.
From the photo's you can see that the Grey C35 is a touch shorter then the STi Pink 'lowered' spring.

The Grey measures approx 14mm gauge winding, whereas the Pink measures around 13mm



My measurements of the rear are therefore :
P1 Red 645mm, rated/measured at 189lbs/in
WR 070 Blue 637mm, rated/measured at 155lbs/in
WR C35 Grey 639mm (most likely the same as WR Blue, as had slightly less fuel in it when measured), rated/measured at 206lb/in
STi Pink 'Lowered' 630mm, rated at 172lb/in

The performance comparing the Pink to the Grey, I still think the Pink is better when lent on hard. But as with the Blue the Grey gives a more tolerate ride/smoother ride at higher speed's and undulating surfaces, when compared to the Pink. This we believe is due to the progressive nature and that it is a touch soft for those in between times.
So yet another vote in favour for a more linear spring on the rear.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

From the measurements calculated for the P1 Red springs using wire size, coil diameter and an assumption maded regarding active coils when fitted (on-ground/static) and plumbing them into a spring rate calculator, I cannot get anywhere near the 215/195 rates that are floating around on the internet.
I end up with figures around the 196/170 region (which is strangley close to the Bilstein Hard setting) or as high as 254/202 (unlikley) if the calculation is reduced by 1 active coil.
Whereas, if the calculations for springs where we do know the spring rates are entered, the calculation ends up pretty close to reality.

However, what this calculation does not take into effect if the impact of having smaller diameter coils at the top of the spring compared to those at the bottom (I need to try and find an alternative calculation).
The rear spring measures 150mm top, 163mm bottom.
The front spring measures 150mm top, 173mm bottom.

This taper has an effect on the spring rate, as the spring compresses.
Larger diameter coils will compress at a faster rate, then smaller diameter coils, even if they are initially equally spaced.
Therefore no Subaru will ever have a truly linear spring, unless the taper of the spring is counteracted by the coil spacing (probably quite difficult to do, and it would be alot easier to fit a top hat rubber of equal size to allow a non-tapered spring to be fitted).
The newage has even more progressive capabilty, as the rear springs are alot more tappered then those on a classic.

As mentioned above the Subaru will have a progressive spring, due to this taper or a 2 stage progressive spring.
1 stage being applied by the tapper, the other stage applied by un-equal coil spacing.

If when fitted the coils appear to be equally spaced, this will be as close to linear as you can get, but it will still be progrssive due to the taper of the springs.

We should have measurements for the P1 spring later next week.

So from what I have learnt :

Small wire size changes make a big difference
Small coil diameter changes make a big difference
A tappered spring behaves quite differently to a straight spring
Reducing the 'Active Coil' number by 1 makes a big difference (this can be achieved with unequal coil spacing)
Increasing the wire size, but adding an 'active coil' can actually reduce the spring rate compared to a thinner gauge wire size with less 'active coils'
Tight/close coils are 'dead springs' and are only used to achieve spring length and prevent the spring coming loose on full droop.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

The irony; IF the p1 springs are a tall version of the bilstein hard spring.
No wonder the p1's could be sold off with the bilstein struts, without changing the valving!
Now I get it - big gappy coils = one less coil in the spring = higher spring rate.
Wonder why sti went the gappy route? And eibach went equal spacing, to achieve the same spring rate?
Maybe it costs less to use a smaller gauge wire and less coils?

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

I would not be suprised if Eibach made them all.
But STi stipulated the thinner gauge to reduce costs (and maybe weight).

If you think of the quantities Subaru/STi would require (1,000's) compared to the quantities Prodrive would require, a few £££ saved per spring makes a big difference.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

That's another reason to suggest the P1's are not as documented.

Scaffman84

Hi there, I've got a type r 97 version and I'm looking for standard suspension to replace the coilovers that are on there if anyone can help??

maff125

iTrader: (1)

My first classic had the prodrive handling pack, bilsteins with eibach springs and it was very hard for road use, almost dangerous on mid corner bumps, I'm guessing i had the hard springs, then I fitted a set of bilstein wr struts with the blue eibach springs to my second classic which were a lot more compliant on UK roads, but I preferred the harder springs if I'm honest, car also sat lower with hard springs.

GTR-Mark

Interesting thread people.

I thought it was just me that is finding spring/strut compo's a headache.
I have a UK 2000 Turbo with some rather tired standard suspension. I was given, what I am told, are P1 front Bilsten shocks and springs (coloured blue) with Camber adjustable top mounts. However the shocks look destined for a skip (I'll grab some pictures at some point) as the hub mounts are completely corroded.
But I am tempted to fit the springs but I would need a matching pair for the rear. Plus I would then need dampers to go with them. I'll get the part numbers off the springs and see if I can identify them within this thread.
Car is sat on later model 17" so ride height looks too high. Needs lowering for sure!

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Really interesting post, just the sort of info we need.
Other than, trying to spit you off the road!, did you ever feel like your first bilstein/eibach combination was too stiff for a daily driver? Or did the fun factor over-ride the reduced comfort?
Should have some definite answers soon, as to what spring rates you were running.

2pot

iTrader: (3)

Any numbers off the springs and bilstein shocks would be most helpful.
There were some blue P1 springs made, but more likely to be blue wr springs.