Royal Marine given life sentence.
Although I agree with a custodial sentence being given to set an example, 10 years as a minimum was too heavy.
To put this into perspective life with a minimum of 10 years is also what Steven Barker was given for raping a 2 year old girl. Life, minimum of 12 is what he got for killing baby P. These run concurrent so Barker will actually be out before Alexander Blackman.
Proof the British judicial system is a joke.
To put this into perspective life with a minimum of 10 years is also what Steven Barker was given for raping a 2 year old girl. Life, minimum of 12 is what he got for killing baby P. These run concurrent so Barker will actually be out before Alexander Blackman.
Proof the British judicial system is a joke.
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From: Type 25. Build No.34
Well it's not conjecture, the only poll to date carried out..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ce-halved.html
35% no jail sentence
23% 5yrs
20% 10yrs
22% more than 10yrs
So I make that a majority 58% of the British public think his sentence was too harsh with the majority thinking he should be released immediately.
Not the usual set of statistics for a cold blooded murder hey
Now I wonder what the stats will look like when Lee Rigby's killers are sentenced?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ce-halved.html
35% no jail sentence
23% 5yrs
20% 10yrs
22% more than 10yrs
So I make that a majority 58% of the British public think his sentence was too harsh with the majority thinking he should be released immediately.
Not the usual set of statistics for a cold blooded murder hey
Now I wonder what the stats will look like when Lee Rigby's killers are sentenced?
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From: Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes
I'd hate to get into a fight with the nutters on here who say he was in the right to do what he did, I bet they are the type of people who put the boot in when your on the floor.
This would mean this kind of situation would not arise, and we'd lose less soldiers. But we'd kill a lot of innocent Afghan people in the process.
However as we are fighting a "PC" war if you like, our soldiers have to attempt to pick out the cowards who hide amongst the "innocent", and then patch them up if they hurt them. This I'd imagine causes frustration and anger.
It's not right in a PC war to stand over someone unarmed and wounded and kill them. But is it right to sit a mile away and kill them with an Apache?.
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I do not think you understand how the world works or you are extremely naive.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25268710
The commanding officer pledged his full support to this marine and supported him as best he could in court without overstepping the mark. Your naivety shows with thinking he could have said anything else, EVERYTHING is political. What do you think would happen to this commanding officers career had he stood publically and said he had disagreed with the sentence? That's right, no further career progression, shi* rolls down hill from the chief of the defence staff in parliament to the Generals, Brigadiers, Colonel's etc. His career would have been over, off record though, you can bet your house that he was p*ssed at the sentence. Guaranteed.
Anyone within the military probably all the way up to the top will feel this sentence is harsh, ask any serving soldier/officer and they will be up in arms about the sentence given.Below is a quote from someone higher up than the Marines commanding officer. Note the word former (Nothing to lose by speaking out)
The only reason he was given a minimum of 10yrs was purely political. The government had no choice, they had to make an example that this act was not acceptable.
The majority of the British public think this sentence was too severe but I guess it is do gooders like yourself and many armchair experts on this forum that support the sentence and think he should be compared to the 2 evil men who pretty much hacked off an innocent mans head on the streets of London.
Wonder how all you armchair experts would react when a few rounds whizz by your own ears, mortars land within a couple of feet, IED's blow up the vehicles you're driving along in, your own friends butchered and maimed, your colleagues limbs tied in trees, your ********* cut off and put in your mouth and left in a ditch etc etc. It's war, it's not a friday night down your local town centre FFS. You cannot judge unless you have been there, held a rifle, fired that rifle, had bullets whizzing by, only then can you judge this marine.
You think this shi* was observed 70yrs ago in World War 2? God help us if there is ever a WW3 and everyone was called up to defend the country and things went back to the way they used to be. Men were men back then, nowadays, we just have a bunch of do gooder human right activists with not a pair of bollocks between them.
In summary, do not judge unless you've walked an inch in the marines shoes, he's done more for his country than I suspect everyone combined who has commented on this thread. He was silly, he got caught, that's it.
Now had he butchered a Taliban supporting muslim on the streets of Bradford, then that's a whole different kettle of fish, there would be no support for him.
Rant over.
(Edited...For the record, my own view is, he made a mistake of judgement, he got caught, he needs to be held accountable for his actions, no denying. I am not saying he should have been let off with a slap around the wrist, just that there should be a distinction between ''murder'' in a warzone and murder in the traditional sense. Had it been me handing down the sentence, I think 5yrs would have been sufficient. Appeal may bring it down a few years)
No denying there is overwhelming public support for him, he's not the usual murder villain and I suspect he will be treated with major respect inside and have an ''easy time''
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25268710
The commanding officer pledged his full support to this marine and supported him as best he could in court without overstepping the mark. Your naivety shows with thinking he could have said anything else, EVERYTHING is political. What do you think would happen to this commanding officers career had he stood publically and said he had disagreed with the sentence? That's right, no further career progression, shi* rolls down hill from the chief of the defence staff in parliament to the Generals, Brigadiers, Colonel's etc. His career would have been over, off record though, you can bet your house that he was p*ssed at the sentence. Guaranteed.
Anyone within the military probably all the way up to the top will feel this sentence is harsh, ask any serving soldier/officer and they will be up in arms about the sentence given.Below is a quote from someone higher up than the Marines commanding officer. Note the word former (Nothing to lose by speaking out)
The only reason he was given a minimum of 10yrs was purely political. The government had no choice, they had to make an example that this act was not acceptable.
The majority of the British public think this sentence was too severe but I guess it is do gooders like yourself and many armchair experts on this forum that support the sentence and think he should be compared to the 2 evil men who pretty much hacked off an innocent mans head on the streets of London.
Wonder how all you armchair experts would react when a few rounds whizz by your own ears, mortars land within a couple of feet, IED's blow up the vehicles you're driving along in, your own friends butchered and maimed, your colleagues limbs tied in trees, your ********* cut off and put in your mouth and left in a ditch etc etc. It's war, it's not a friday night down your local town centre FFS. You cannot judge unless you have been there, held a rifle, fired that rifle, had bullets whizzing by, only then can you judge this marine.
You think this shi* was observed 70yrs ago in World War 2? God help us if there is ever a WW3 and everyone was called up to defend the country and things went back to the way they used to be. Men were men back then, nowadays, we just have a bunch of do gooder human right activists with not a pair of bollocks between them.
In summary, do not judge unless you've walked an inch in the marines shoes, he's done more for his country than I suspect everyone combined who has commented on this thread. He was silly, he got caught, that's it.
Now had he butchered a Taliban supporting muslim on the streets of Bradford, then that's a whole different kettle of fish, there would be no support for him.
Rant over.
(Edited...For the record, my own view is, he made a mistake of judgement, he got caught, he needs to be held accountable for his actions, no denying. I am not saying he should have been let off with a slap around the wrist, just that there should be a distinction between ''murder'' in a warzone and murder in the traditional sense. Had it been me handing down the sentence, I think 5yrs would have been sufficient. Appeal may bring it down a few years)
No denying there is overwhelming public support for him, he's not the usual murder villain and I suspect he will be treated with major respect inside and have an ''easy time''
The first thing I thought on hearing about the incident was "How much of an idiot do you have to be to record something like that and then keep a diary?" If I were in that environment and some **** was playing around with his phone then I would either take it off him and smash it to pieces or tell him to convince me there was nothing on it so I could avoid having to kill him.
The dead guy wasn't a plumber nipping down the shops for a pack of B&H, so ultimately if this type of thing happens and we don't know about it then I'm not going to worry about whether it's happening or not.
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However as we are fighting a "PC" war if you like, our soldiers have to attempt to pick out the cowards who hide amongst the "innocent", and then patch them up if they hurt them. This I'd imagine causes frustration and anger.
It's not right in a PC war to stand over someone unarmed and wounded and kill them. But is it right to sit a mile away and kill them with an Apache?.
It's not right in a PC war to stand over someone unarmed and wounded and kill them. But is it right to sit a mile away and kill them with an Apache?.
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From: Dundee
Do you think we won two world wars by playing by the rules? We even executed our own for desertion, cowardice etc. Why have things changed in such a small timeframe? Why? Were our grandfathers cold hearted murdering butchers when they shot wounded Germans on the battlefields? Were soldiers brought before the courts for similar situations?
If the enemy does not respect the GC, then why should those on the receiving end? It's a fair question? Respect, professionalism etc etc, they are just words banded around by politicians and do gooders. If it come down to it and your life was at risk, you would break the rules wouldn't you? Scenario, burglar breaks in with a machete and is a threat to your family. You pick up a kitchen knife, stab him and kill him. That's murder, but it's acceptable murder no? You've thrown the rule book out the window. Soldiers are trained to kill, not maim, fire to kill. They were put there to kill, the guy kills and he is prosecuted. Okay the guy was injured severely but he was a guy with an AK47 and a hand grenade ready to send our boys home in body bags.
Unless you've been there, done it, got the T shirt, then you'll never know what it's really like. For the record, yes, I did spend 4 months in Afghanistan back in 2006. Many many of our guys blown to bits. Should I feel sorry for the guy holding a grenade clutching an AK47. As said, the only failings here were his own stupidity in getting caught.
Martin, the biggest % group of over 1/3 of people surveyed said he should be released immediately. That's what I meant. However close to 60% said the sentence was too harsh, only 40% said it was right. I was in the 5yr category not because of what he done but his stupidity and the fallout that come afterwards.
Last edited by LEO-RS; Dec 9, 2013 at 07:23 PM.
18 June 1815 - Waterloo
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From: To the valley men!
The Geneva convention is PC though. The rules of engagement for UK armed forces are very very restrictive. You basically cannot fire unless you have been fired upon so that means one of your colleagues on the receiving end of a bullet before you're allowed to fire back. Crazy crazy crazy. The yanks have a shoot to kill policy, we are much more restricted.
Do you think we won two world wars by playing by the rules? We even executed our own for desertion, cowardice etc. Why have things changed in such a small timeframe? Why? Were our grandfathers cold hearted murdering butchers when they shot wounded Germans on the battlefields? Were soldiers brought before the courts for similar situations?
If the enemy does not respect the GC, then why should those on the receiving end? It's a fair question? Respect, professionalism etc etc, they are just words banded around by politicians and do gooders. If it come down to it and your life was at risk, you would break the rules wouldn't you? Scenario, burglar breaks in with a machete and is a threat to your family. You pick up a kitchen knife, stab him and kill him. That's murder, but it's acceptable murder no? You've thrown the rule book out the window. Soldiers are trained to kill, not maim, fire to kill. They were put there to kill, the guy kills and he is prosecuted. Okay the guy was injured severely but he was a guy with an AK47 and a hand grenade ready to send our boys home in body bags.
Unless you've been there, done it, got the T shirt, then you'll never know what it's really like. For the record, yes, I did spend 4 months in Afghanistan back in 2006. Many many of our guys blown to bits. Should I feel sorry for the guy holding a grenade clutching an AK47. As said, the only failings here were his own stupidity in getting caught.
Martin, the biggest % group of over 1/3 of people surveyed said he should be released immediately. That's what I meant. However close to 60% said the sentence was too harsh, only 40% said it was right. I was in the 5yr category not because of what he done but his stupidity and the fallout that come afterwards.
Do you think we won two world wars by playing by the rules? We even executed our own for desertion, cowardice etc. Why have things changed in such a small timeframe? Why? Were our grandfathers cold hearted murdering butchers when they shot wounded Germans on the battlefields? Were soldiers brought before the courts for similar situations?
If the enemy does not respect the GC, then why should those on the receiving end? It's a fair question? Respect, professionalism etc etc, they are just words banded around by politicians and do gooders. If it come down to it and your life was at risk, you would break the rules wouldn't you? Scenario, burglar breaks in with a machete and is a threat to your family. You pick up a kitchen knife, stab him and kill him. That's murder, but it's acceptable murder no? You've thrown the rule book out the window. Soldiers are trained to kill, not maim, fire to kill. They were put there to kill, the guy kills and he is prosecuted. Okay the guy was injured severely but he was a guy with an AK47 and a hand grenade ready to send our boys home in body bags.
Unless you've been there, done it, got the T shirt, then you'll never know what it's really like. For the record, yes, I did spend 4 months in Afghanistan back in 2006. Many many of our guys blown to bits. Should I feel sorry for the guy holding a grenade clutching an AK47. As said, the only failings here were his own stupidity in getting caught.
Martin, the biggest % group of over 1/3 of people surveyed said he should be released immediately. That's what I meant. However close to 60% said the sentence was too harsh, only 40% said it was right. I was in the 5yr category not because of what he done but his stupidity and the fallout that come afterwards.
You should also know that during MST and MATT trg that Values and Standards are core functions of the Chain of Command. Integrity, comradeship and selfless commitment are core values and we have to stand by them, you cannot set poor standards to your subordinates as he did. Doing the right thing is the current flavour of the day. You are quite Out Of Date on your ROE which does allow you to engage the enemy without warning if they are a direct threat to life or by their actions are likely to endanger it.
Soldiers are also taught to preserve life be they friend or foe, do we really want to be viewed in the same light as the Taliban?
I have dealt with numerous families who have lost loved ones and they don't blame the Taliban/Al Qaeda, their biggest gripe is the Government but that's another story. Their loved ones died doing what they volunteered to do after pleading allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen her heirs and successors.
The Royal Marine was tried at a Courts Martial by his peers and received what they taught was appropriate. Shooting a dying man is not the same as a burglar entering your house. Remember appropriate force should be used.
I have been in a few too many two way exchanges, have wore numerous Tour T-shirts but not as a shiney **** either. Remember that the standards you walk past are the standards you accept.
Last edited by The Trooper 1815; Dec 9, 2013 at 08:29 PM.
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Leo, if you have been there and done it you should know the back lash from the locals this causes when **** like this goes down for the guys on the ground.
You should also know that during MST and MATT trg that Values and Standards are core functions of the Chain of Command. Integrity, comradeship and selfless commitment are core values and we have to stand by them, you cannot set poor standards to your subordinates as he did. Doing the right thing is the current flavour of the day. You are quite Out Of Date on your ROE which does allow you to engage the enemy without warning if they are a direct threat to life or by their actions are likely to endanger it.
Soldiers are also taught to preserve life be they friend or foe, do we really want to be viewed in the same light as the Taliban?
I have dealt with numerous families who have lost loved ones and they don't blame the Taliban/Al Qaeda, their biggest gripe is the Government but that's another story. Their loved ones died doing what they volunteered to do after pleading allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen her heirs and successors.
The Royal Marine was tried at a Courts Martial by his peers and received what they taught was appropriate. Shooting a dying man is not the same as a burglar entering your house. Remember appropriate force should be used.
I have been in a few too many two way exchanges, have wore numerous Tour T-shirts but not as a shiney **** either. Remember that the standards you walk past are the standards you accept.
You should also know that during MST and MATT trg that Values and Standards are core functions of the Chain of Command. Integrity, comradeship and selfless commitment are core values and we have to stand by them, you cannot set poor standards to your subordinates as he did. Doing the right thing is the current flavour of the day. You are quite Out Of Date on your ROE which does allow you to engage the enemy without warning if they are a direct threat to life or by their actions are likely to endanger it.
Soldiers are also taught to preserve life be they friend or foe, do we really want to be viewed in the same light as the Taliban?
I have dealt with numerous families who have lost loved ones and they don't blame the Taliban/Al Qaeda, their biggest gripe is the Government but that's another story. Their loved ones died doing what they volunteered to do after pleading allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen her heirs and successors.
The Royal Marine was tried at a Courts Martial by his peers and received what they taught was appropriate. Shooting a dying man is not the same as a burglar entering your house. Remember appropriate force should be used.
I have been in a few too many two way exchanges, have wore numerous Tour T-shirts but not as a shiney **** either. Remember that the standards you walk past are the standards you accept.
If however, you pick up a knife and stab him, leaving him wounded to the point that after a short time passes, you know he is no longer a threat and decide, **** it I'll just keep stabbing him until he dies (rather than call the police/ambulance), that is murder and it's wrong.
See the difference?
18 June 1815 - Waterloo
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From: To the valley men!
Yes but the media did not have the video evidence, it was another Marine who brought the facts out.
Lets not forget the problems Piers Morgan caused publishing the fake photographs? At the time his brother was (and still is) a serving officer in Iraq.
Lets not forget the problems Piers Morgan caused publishing the fake photographs? At the time his brother was (and still is) a serving officer in Iraq.
Last edited by The Trooper 1815; Dec 9, 2013 at 09:04 PM.
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Because I served in the military makes me a tattoo'd knuckled intellectually challenged buffoon does it?
You have absolutely no idea of my education or field of expertise. I was a little more than an Infantry soldier my friend.
It's you who is in the minority with your views according to the only poll carried out. 58% think the sentence was too harsh, 42% think it was right.
Some buffoon posted earlier about a comparison to the butchering of Lee Rigby and there was a score of 'likes' for the post. Crazy.
Saying all that, I'd rather be an intellectually challenged member of the love hate brigade than some do-gooder nobody who has done nothing with their life
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Good god.
Because I served in the military makes me a tattoo'd knuckled intellectually challenged buffoon does it?
You have absolutely no idea of my education or field of expertise. I was a little more than an Infantry soldier my friend.
It's you who is in the minority with your views according to the only poll carried out. 58% think the sentence was too harsh, 42% think it was right.
Some buffoon posted earlier about a comparison to the butchering of Lee Rigby and there was a score of 'likes' for the post. Crazy.
Saying all that, I'd rather be an intellectually challenged member of the love hate brigade than some do-gooder nobody who has done nothing with their life
Because I served in the military makes me a tattoo'd knuckled intellectually challenged buffoon does it?
You have absolutely no idea of my education or field of expertise. I was a little more than an Infantry soldier my friend.
It's you who is in the minority with your views according to the only poll carried out. 58% think the sentence was too harsh, 42% think it was right.
Some buffoon posted earlier about a comparison to the butchering of Lee Rigby and there was a score of 'likes' for the post. Crazy.
Saying all that, I'd rather be an intellectually challenged member of the love hate brigade than some do-gooder nobody who has done nothing with their life
The sooner the army rids itself of bonesheads like yourself the better.
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From: Dundee
And Lisa, no, there are many examples of an intruder breaking into a home and then being shot or stabbed, no threat to life other than to pinch a few expensive items to feed their drug addiction. You only need to look across the pond for hundreds of examples of unarmed burglars being killed. It's happened a few times here in the UK too. My point was not about the legalities of it though, it was about situations where you are under enormous stress and have a split decision to make. I wouldn't think twice about plunging a knife into the back of a burglar making his way up the stairs to my kids rooms. He may be armed, he may be unarmed, quick decision to make. What if he was unarmed? I'm them sent down for murder, is that right? We don't know if the marine was in further danger, suicide vests, remote timers, booby traps and IED's, there is a lot going through the mind.
For the record, I do not condone the shooting of the injured Talibani but I can sure as hell understand why some soldiers may with the extreme pressure of the environment that they are working in. All along I have agreed with a sentence, 5yrs rather than 10 though due to the situation our government put him into in the first place.
For the record, I do not condone the shooting of the injured Talibani but I can sure as hell understand why some soldiers may with the extreme pressure of the environment that they are working in. All along I have agreed with a sentence, 5yrs rather than 10 though due to the situation our government put him into in the first place.
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Last edited by LEO-RS; Dec 9, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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If Mr Soldier guy would have shot Mr Taliban to end his suffering then that would be acceptable. Pretty much euthanasia.
On this occasion he saw red mist and shot an injured man in a cowardly fashion so therefore he deserves the sentence he gets if not more. Just like himself Mr Taliban probably has family too. Murder is murder. Wether you are in uniform or not. I hope this sends out a clear message to anyone else employed using weapons that the uniform is not an excuse for trial free murder.
On this occasion he saw red mist and shot an injured man in a cowardly fashion so therefore he deserves the sentence he gets if not more. Just like himself Mr Taliban probably has family too. Murder is murder. Wether you are in uniform or not. I hope this sends out a clear message to anyone else employed using weapons that the uniform is not an excuse for trial free murder.
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After all someone has to polish the Royal Marines boots
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What is your country of origin Shaid? Are you British born and bred, sorry, I cannot tell from your username? It's not a racist remark as if you were born into religion and born in a country that had been over run with Brits and Yanks then your opinion would obviously be quite a bit different than to the average Brit.
Are you saying this marine should be handed the exact same sentence as the killers of Lee Rigby? If so, why, please explain yourself, murder is murder afterall.
Are you saying this marine should be handed the exact same sentence as the killers of Lee Rigby? If so, why, please explain yourself, murder is murder afterall.
For the record, I do not condone the shooting of the injured Talibani but I can sure as hell understand why some soldiers may with the extreme pressure of the environment that they are working in. All along I have agreed with a sentence, 5yrs rather than 10 though due to the situation our government put him into in the first place.
I was in the 5yr category not because of what he done but his stupidity and the fallout that come afterwards.
Now forgive me if I'm reading your words wrong, but that comes across as if you do condone his actions, or certainly don't have any problem with them.
As for the rest of your post, as I've already said (in my opinion) there is a difference between acting in the heat of the moment when you feel at risk and having time to assess a situation, and reacting accordingly. If someone breaks into your home, armed or not (as you may not know), short of giving them a shout and asking them what they want, you are going to react out of panic. But there is still a line between using reasonable force to protect yourself/family (even if that does result in the death of the intruder), and making sure you end their life regardless of the threat being removed. I'm not going to pretend to know what exactly would happen regarding arrests/punishment as it would be judged on a case by case basis.
In relation to this discussion though, if the soldiers still thought there was a threat as you suggest could be the case, would they not have finished him off straight away whilst still in the situation of a lot going through their minds and even still being fearful for their own lives? The fact that time elapsed, even a short amount, combined with comments made, I'm sorry, makes me feel this wasn't the case.
I cant believe this is still a debate, the taliban and alqaeda are ******* animals, have we all forgotten how they treat women and children or anybody who doesnt follow 911, they should be treat like animals....
Same for burglars aswell, god himself couldnt save a burglar if i caught one in my house
Same for burglars aswell, god himself couldnt save a burglar if i caught one in my house
Last edited by DJ Dunk; Dec 10, 2013 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Removed religious comment
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You really do think your better than every one else and the Sun shines out of your ar$e do you.
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I was referring to the people LEO was engaging with then calling them do-gooders as a jibe to get one over them.
Now wind your ****ing neck back in.
I can assure you the sun does not shine out of my rear. I don't think it shines out of anyone's rear. Maybe you've witnessed some sort of **** miracle but i haven't. Sorry to disappoint.
PS - i don't think that i'm better than every one else, although i can confidently state i AM better than many ;-)
You won't like that and there is bugger all you can do about it. So let's keep this civil and do not refer to me again.
Last edited by Shaid; Dec 10, 2013 at 08:40 AM. Reason: To educate the thick twa......