c_maguire

If you displayed a better understanding of context then you might reduce the frustration you appear to suffer from on a regular basis.
Blaming others for your own shortcomings isn't helping anybody.

If you wish to argue specifics regarding any point I have made then I expect I can do that without resorting to by-passing the swear filter. How about you?

Or are you already half-way home with your cricket bat?

davyboy

Again, it's how you define excel.

Even when it was -15 last year I don't ever recall feeling like my car was going to fall off the road. So how would the winter tyres have excelled?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Idiots frustrate me, it's just the way it is!

Anyway it is you who have a contextual understanding problem so go and fix your own shortcomings first before looking for them in others.

As for the cricket bat comment I have no idea what you're spouting about. I assume it's some stupid reference to violence which makes you look like a moron frankly!

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, but that is on snow and I wouldn't expect anything otherwise.

Look at the stat about braking on sheet ice, the winter tyre isn't just as hot at stopping on ice as people on here are making out.
This is what I would expect to be honest, and I can't understand how it can be any other outcome with sheet ice.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Im not having a go at you Urban, but there is far more to it that this.

The biggest 2 differences between summer and winter tyres are the tread is wider on the winters and the compound is totally different.

Summer tyres require one very important element for them to be efficient and that is heat, the compound needs heat to become soft and sticky to give you the grip you need, the one thing you dont get in winter in this country is that heat you need so your tyres become far less efficient at doing their job.
This isnt about how much tread or the tread pattern on a summer tyre in snow, it doesnt matter as the tyre becomes hard due to the lack of heat, inflexible basically so the snow cannot clear, same with the ice, the tyre needs heat and you get it speading to give you that grip (nice and soft and sticky), you must have put your hand on your tyre in summer after a good run out and felt what it was like?

Winter tyres are like that in these conditions, they have the flex in there as they dont require the heat of a summer tyre, the wider tread and softer compound means the blocks move and the snow doesnt get stuck in there making the tyre like a slick, the compound feels soft like a summer car tyre does rather than like hard plastic, and the improvement is tremendous below 7 deg C as summer tyres become really inefficient below that temp, but dont take 7 deg C as being the changing point, the colder it is the worse a summer tyre becomes, the hotter it is the better a summer tyre but the worse a winter tyre (but we are talking really warm here).

You will probably find that a winter tyre starts to excell over alot of summer tyres in temps around 11 deg C if not slightly higher for braking and wet ability.

Tony

c_maguire

You don't do yourself any favours do you?

The cricket bat reference refers to the child who doesn't get his own way so takes his bat away with him to stop the other children playing and enjoying themselves. It could just as easily be a football.

This place would be far more friendly if everybody just agreed with you, wouldn't it?
The admin could rename this section 'Non-Scooby Rhetorical'.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Excel as in being better than summer tyres in conditions where ambients are below 7C.

Had you hit a patch of ice you would realise what a difference winter tyres would make.

I have tried both and I will never drive with summer tyres again in winter.

You won't be convinced until you try them or loose grip due to icy conditions, your opinion is subjective until you try them.

Tony Burns couldn't have explained it better.

c_maguire

I accept all of this but unless snow and ice are a significant issue in your driving environment, then what really matters is at what point as regards the cold and the wet does the performance of the 'normal' tyres you are using drop off to the extent that your driving is impaired to the point where there is a worthwhile gain from fitting Winter tyres?
At the speeds I drive at I am positive I would benefit from fitting say Yoko W902s but I can still get about adequately (and significantly faster than anyone else I seem to come across) with the tyres I have. Could I drive faster now with 902s? Definitely. Would anybody apart from me appreciate it? Probably not. Can I put up with going a bit slower for a relatively short period and saving at least 500 notes? I expect so.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

The cost is the same (only extra being the second set of wheels you need) if you take into account that your summer tyres will now last twice longer.

We can have the same argument, why fit good summer tyres in the summer since you can get by using Linglongs?

Winter Tyre VS Summer Tyre difference in performance is bigger compared with Good Summer Tyre VS Linglong in summer.

Yes, you can manage with summer tyres in winter but using winter ones will reduce chances of getting involved in an accident (unless of course someone using summer ones falls into you )

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I don't find it unfriendly!

As fior the cricket bat reference I think the expression you are after is 'taking my ball in' not 'taking my cricket bat in'. Had you said that we all might have stood a chance of understanding the hell you were going on about not that it was worth the wait.

Finally of course peope don't have to agree with me, but I believe I am right and if you disagree I believe you are wrong and will say so ... if the way I say it doesn't sit well with you then that's your problem!

Anyway I am done with talking about this in here as it isn't relevant to the topic. Stick me on the ignore list if it bothers you so much

c_maguire

There must be one hell of a lot of people doing emergency stops then, as looking ahead is the best way to avoid collisions.



I still insist that for 95% of drivers, they drive so slowly anyway that apart from snow/ice (that again!) the only way a Winter tyre is likely to stop them crashing is either a) their Summer tyres are such poor quality they only get away with them generally due to how slow they drive, or b) they have to make an emergency stop that shouldn't have been required had they been paying attention.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Tony - Its OK, I totally understand all the differences and benefits they give
My only gripe is that ice is ice, and some folk are giving the wrong impression on here saying they can stop on ice.

Which is of course true if you've got a tyre full of studs
Yes, the winter tyre will get you stopped sooner than summer when on ice, but its going to take a while still

fpan

iTrader: (11)

You have much better grip on the wet with an all weather/"winter" tyre such as Nokian WRG2 (replaced by the WRA3 recently) compared with summer tyres; winters don't only help in ice/snow hence the name winter

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Urban have you seen the last video somebody posted up on the last page? If you ain't take a look it aint long, I was quite shocked to be honest, slow speeds granted but you get the point

c_maguire

But again, so few drivers are anywhere near using all the grip available with the tyres they already have that giving them more grip is academic in anything other than situations created by their own stupidity.

scud8

iTrader: (1)

So, to get back to the original (11 pages ago) question on this thread, would people support a legal requirement for winter tyres during the winter months?

While I have winter tyres on my Subaru, I wouldn't support it being made a blanket requirement, but I would support something like the German system (so you could be fined for driving on snow and ice with summer tyres, double if you caused an accident or traffic delay).

Most of the people on the thread who have been anti-winter tyres have made the argument that the extra expense is not justified for the few days of snow we get every year - so would they be happy with something like the German system that kept them off the roads in snow and ice? (I'm excluding mrmadcap from this, as his low grip driving skills are so good he should obviously get an exclusion from any such requirement.)

Matteeboy

Fining for causing traffic delays through stupidity? GENIUS! Please can we copy the Germans on this one!

I found our M&S (Mud and Snow) rated Defender tyres were very good in snow and ice. And they worked on "normal" roads too.

I'm considering All Weathers on the van (VW 4Motion California camper) as the Dunlops Sports (errmmmm - why?!) are wearing rather quickly. The issue is, long distance driving in "normal" conditions is noisier and uses more fuel with such tyres. Worse for Winters.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

It's the stupidity/winter road conditions together with the unpredicted road surface (e.g. hitting a patch of black ice) that can cause accidents.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Although I use winter tyres and I will continue to use them every winter ever since I started using them 5 years ago, I agree with you on the above.

Fat Boy

Winter tyres aren't noisier in my experience - they are noticeably quieter than the Pirelli summer tyres we use on the same car and also give a more compliant ride - probably due to the softer compound despite the increased number of tread blocks.

c_maguire

It is only enforcable and workable if mandatory between certain dates, as in Germany where in practice at least everyone who is employed and requires their car to get to work will use them.
I can't imagine the boss being most pleased when employees don't roll up not because they couldn't but because they hadn't got Winter tyres and weren't sure if the dusting of snow was OK to drive or not. Too many grey areas, before even allowing for varying levels of driver skill/quality of Summer tyres/condition of vehicle.
The Government and then the insurance companies would all have to take a standpoint. How likely are the Government going to want to tell all the Councils and Haulage companies that their trucks and buses need Winter tyres.
It'll never happen here because it isn't cold enough for long enough, and secondly it doesn't snow much either.

davyboy

Are we saying that winter tyres will perform better than summer tyres I cold dry conditions?

I remember last year driving around in -15 dry temps without any problem.

I knew r rated tyres needed heat, but not normal tyres you find on your ave shopping car.

Fat Boy

Yes - from my experience they are better. Try some winter tyres in these situations. I was a sceptic too.

However, I am with scud 8 I wouldn't make it enforceable either - not everyone can afford 500 quid and you can get about pretty well most of the time in the Uk, but I would also support either the higher insurance excess or fine mechanism if someone crashes and it could be shown that they wouldn't have had that crash if they had the appropriate tyres for the conditions. That way, if you don't want to drive in really bad conditions and you don't need your car every day or at any time during that period you can just leave it at home or take the risk.

I've used them for 10 years plus - mainly because of my skiing addiction (that you share)

c_maguire

Quality Winter against quality Summer then yes we are.
Budget Winter against quality Summer then perhaps not.

More positive would be to place a minimum performance rating on Summer tyres to stop sales of all the cheap rubbish that so many are buying (and that garages also put on because there is either more profit or less loss in it for them).

kbsub

Over half way through my 6th Canadian winter and winter tires are night and day difference in cold temps slush/ ice heavy snow etc and the braking distance vastly proves , why it takes over 11 pages to debate this ? Well could only happen in good ole England .

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That's Scoobynet for you

c_maguire

Probably something to do with the fact that this thread is debating whether there is a need for Winter tyres during a UK Winter rather than a Canadian one.
If Winter is the only requirement then they'd be using them on the Costa Blanca, which they aren't.

mrmadcap

Yes that's right, it snows heavily all winter in Canada, where i live you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times it freezes never mind snows over one winter.

davyboy

Night and day in slush, ice, snow - I don't think we are debating that. I think we are all pretty clear they are better.

I think the sensible among us, not the ones abusing and rolling eyes are suggesting in other winter condition, cold and wet, cold and dry they might not be night and day better.

Interestingly, the AA website says don't bother if you don't have to drive in snow.

Conti suggest just getting winter tyres if you don't have the space to store 2 sets.

Not sure what ling long say.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Trucks and buses don't use winter tyres, not sure why though, I guess because of the load they carry the winter tyres can't cope with it?

The UK temperature in winter is perfect for winter tyres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate...United_Kingdom

As previously mentioned winter tyres are not only necessary in snow, they provide improved grip when the average ambient has dropped below 10C or so.