Scottish Independence
19 September 2014, 11:00 AM
#1743
I'm curious, though, if the results had been reversed would it have been reported as a "resounding" yes. Doubtful.
Don't be so dramatic. You make it sound like there will be a civil war. There were no riots this morning. We didn't all wake up to "I am Legend".
Instead, the streets were quiet.
What's your sudden interest in this all about anyway? Its quite easy for you to jump in now that the vote is known. Shame you avoided all the run up. Hindisght is indeed a wnderful thing.
Yes there will be change, it was always going to happen. But the vast majority of Scots will get on with their lives irrespective of whether they woke up happy or dissapointed today. People of Scotland are used to disapointment. That's the way of this country. Its fault is also its strength.
The Pandora's box is, in my opinion, likely to contain:
Cameron failing to deliver on his promises
Bitterness from England about what little he actually does come good on
Farage gaining support and greater power as a result
Scotland being penalised as a result (with England conveniently forgetting that Scotland is a net contributor per person to the UK economy)
All of which may well lead to a far more challangeing split at some point in the future.
For my part I can only hope none of that happens. But England, particularly, needs to worry about what it does, who it votes for. Because that will affect us all.
Am I disapointed this morning? Yes, along with 1,617,989 other Scots. I see a lost opportunity for positive change. No, there were no guarantees, but there never are.
Do I respect the decision of the 2,001,926 who voted no? Absolutely.
Lets just hope it was the correct one
19 September 2014, 11:02 AM
#1744
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Devildog,
My comments were based on having a discussion with no agenda, so please don't try to infer otherwise.
My point was that there is not enough information available to make an informed response. Most "facts" have been based on opinion without clear context.
The fact that with anything I wrote you felt the need to pick me up on a grammar mistake, sort of insinuates an agenda you may have. Let's be adult about the situation.
If the results had been reversed it wouldn't have been a resounding yes. As much as these results have not been a resounding no. No one has "won" here imo - this opens up a whole can of worms.
Your country IS split on this, what has been, the most important "vote" we've seen and likely to see for some time. I strongly suspect this will have far reaching consequences in your country, as well as the rest of the UK.
It's my opinion and you may or may not agree, but ditch accusations of why I'm joining in the adult discussion here. However, your kind of response is one of the reasons why I couldn't be arsed to get involved in the pre-talk. You want to sit down and talk about something sensibly, cool... I'm all ears. You want to have a rant, make accusations or try to be clever..... talk to the hand.
In regards to your understanding of the opening of Pandora's box, I wouldn't disagree with the majority of what you suspect.
My comments were based on having a discussion with no agenda, so please don't try to infer otherwise.
My point was that there is not enough information available to make an informed response. Most "facts" have been based on opinion without clear context.
The fact that with anything I wrote you felt the need to pick me up on a grammar mistake, sort of insinuates an agenda you may have. Let's be adult about the situation.
If the results had been reversed it wouldn't have been a resounding yes. As much as these results have not been a resounding no. No one has "won" here imo - this opens up a whole can of worms.
Your country IS split on this, what has been, the most important "vote" we've seen and likely to see for some time. I strongly suspect this will have far reaching consequences in your country, as well as the rest of the UK.
It's my opinion and you may or may not agree, but ditch accusations of why I'm joining in the adult discussion here. However, your kind of response is one of the reasons why I couldn't be arsed to get involved in the pre-talk. You want to sit down and talk about something sensibly, cool... I'm all ears. You want to have a rant, make accusations or try to be clever..... talk to the hand.
In regards to your understanding of the opening of Pandora's box, I wouldn't disagree with the majority of what you suspect.
19 September 2014, 11:03 AM
#1745
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So according to you, it was damned if they do, damned if they don't, what eactly was the point?
19 September 2014, 11:10 AM
#1746
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Some amusing quotes
The daft:
The truth:
The plain stupid (and yes it would be a f**king Tory)
The daft:
Originally Posted by George Galloway
Now, together, let's get the Tories out.
Originally Posted by Tommy Sheridan
Bosses, bankers, billionaires and millionaires unite with Labour MPs, Tories, UKIP and the UK establishment to celebrate Project Fear
Originally Posted by Ruth Davidson
The status quo has been thoroughly smashed.
19 September 2014, 11:11 AM
#1747
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That's just rubbish, as a currency union would have effectively meant no independence for Scotland as BOE (in reality Westminster) would have to have a degree of control of over Scottish monetary policy.
So according to you, it was damned if they do, damned if they don't, what eactly was the point?
So according to you, it was damned if they do, damned if they don't, what eactly was the point?
Also there may have been a future long term plan to move to their own currency, but by 2016... no chance!
Anyway it's all irrelevant now sadly!
19 September 2014, 11:14 AM
#1748
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Your problem Shaun is that you can only see in black and white. And if you can't get that you are unable to make a decision.
You will never have absolute fact or guarantee in this scenario. You are looking for the impossible.
Sometimes you have to make assumptions. You can roll that *** out of u and me **** all you like but this isn't a management training exercise. We are not living in an ideology.
This is the real world where people make assumptions every day. One of my mates is an actuary working in pensions. Yuo do know what an actuary is?
He has to make assumptions. Banks make assumptions. Businesses make assumptions. Assumptions make progress possible.
Its the *basis* of that assumption that matters. Not that is an "assumption"
You will never have absolute fact or guarantee in this scenario. You are looking for the impossible.
Sometimes you have to make assumptions. You can roll that *** out of u and me **** all you like but this isn't a management training exercise. We are not living in an ideology.
This is the real world where people make assumptions every day. One of my mates is an actuary working in pensions. Yuo do know what an actuary is?
He has to make assumptions. Banks make assumptions. Businesses make assumptions. Assumptions make progress possible.
Its the *basis* of that assumption that matters. Not that is an "assumption"
What this is about is the context of anything that is said. There has been pretty much zero context and when things have been stated, I suspect the general public has construed it as black and white. What hasn't been made clear either is the potential risk/impact (probability and severity) of key items discussed.
An assumption is a true without proof. Without any risk/impact analysis it's pretty meaningless imo. If I'm given the risk/impact context, I'll tell you whether or not I'm prepared to take that risk. The public was not given this information imo, so I can't understand how they can be expected to make an informed decision. This was a major problem with BOTH campaigns imo.
Again.... please can I ask you to remove your attitude from your conversation.
19 September 2014, 11:16 AM
#1749
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Devildog,
My comments were based on having a discussion with no agenda, so please don't try to infer otherwise.
My point was that there is not enough information available to make an informed response. Most "facts" have been based on opinion without clear context.
The fact that with anything I wrote you felt the need to pick me up on a grammar mistake, sort of insinuates an agenda you may have. Let's be adult about the situation.
If the results had been reversed it wouldn't have been a resounding yes. As much as these results have not been a resounding no. No one has "won" here imo - this opens up a whole can of worms.
But good to see we agree on something
Your country IS split on this, what has been, the most important "vote" we've seen and likely to see for some time. I strongly suspect this will have far reaching consequences in your country, as well as the rest of the UK.
It's my opinion and you may or may not agree, but ditch accusations of why I'm joining in the adult discussion here. However, your kind of response is one of the reasons why I couldn't be arsed to get involved in the pre-talk. You want to sit down and talk about something sensibly, cool... I'm all ears. You want to have a rant, make accusations or try to be clever..... talk to the hand.
In regards to your understanding of the opening of Pandora's box, I wouldn't disagree with the majority of what you suspect.
My comments were based on having a discussion with no agenda, so please don't try to infer otherwise.
My point was that there is not enough information available to make an informed response. Most "facts" have been based on opinion without clear context.
The fact that with anything I wrote you felt the need to pick me up on a grammar mistake, sort of insinuates an agenda you may have. Let's be adult about the situation.
If the results had been reversed it wouldn't have been a resounding yes. As much as these results have not been a resounding no. No one has "won" here imo - this opens up a whole can of worms.
But good to see we agree on something
Your country IS split on this, what has been, the most important "vote" we've seen and likely to see for some time. I strongly suspect this will have far reaching consequences in your country, as well as the rest of the UK.
It's my opinion and you may or may not agree, but ditch accusations of why I'm joining in the adult discussion here. However, your kind of response is one of the reasons why I couldn't be arsed to get involved in the pre-talk. You want to sit down and talk about something sensibly, cool... I'm all ears. You want to have a rant, make accusations or try to be clever..... talk to the hand.
In regards to your understanding of the opening of Pandora's box, I wouldn't disagree with the majority of what you suspect.
Now that's out the way, obviously my country is split on this. The numbers are there for all to see. But we will deal with it and crack on regardless. It's what we do. I disagree with you on the far reaching consequences as far as the split is concerned. So lets leave it at that and maybe revisit these thoughts in 6 months or so.
Rather, I woudl venture that the consequences stem from the fact there was a referendum at all. That's what opened the can of worms.
But good to see we agree on something
Last edited by Devildog; 19 September 2014 at 11:22 AM.
19 September 2014, 11:23 AM
#1750
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Nope, the people of Scotland did what anyone would do when they are told their pensions will be worth less, their salaries will be worth less, they will lose their jobs, their country wlll be bankrupt.... pretty much the rhetoric that your pal Dave and his cohorts were spinning them on the back of he currency lie.... they got scared basically and who can blame them!
That would suggest the exact opposite of what you are hypothesising
19 September 2014, 11:25 AM
#1751
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No it kicked in 10 days ago when the polls started to indicate a 50/50 split and your pal Dave shat himself and cancelled the chimps meeting (aka PMQs) to head north and threaten everyone.
19 September 2014, 11:26 AM
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19 September 2014, 11:27 AM
#1753
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19 September 2014, 11:29 AM
#1754
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I'm sure we could openly "discuss" how assumptions made in the bank and business sector have had catastrophic negative impacts on us and the rest of the modern world - when they've gone Pete Tong. I'm sure we could discuss the instances were it has "paid off" as well. However, when YOU have to make a decision based on this kind of scenario, that could potentially impact YOU.... quite often, you look at it differently.
You can't make an informed decision based on an assumption alone. Turn an assumption into a risk and be clear as to how that will be mitigated, is by far the sensible approach. Again, I'm not aware that this was documented and clearly communicated to the voting community.
Above all... be clear, upfront, open and honest. Which is perhaps something we're not used to in the UK.
Anyway, apologies for taking this slightly "off topic".......
19 September 2014, 11:39 AM
#1755
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No agenda Shaun. In the interests of transparency, I think you're full of **** and always have. And you've said as much to me so lets not have any pretence here.
Now that's out the way, obviously my country is split on this. The numbers are there for all to see. But we will deal with it and crack on regardless. It's what we do. I disagree with you on the far reaching consequences as far as the split is concerned. So lets leave it at that and maybe revisit these thoughts in 6 months or so.
Rather, I woudl venture that the consequences stem from the fact there was a referendum at all. That's what opened the can of worms.
But good to see we agree on something
Now that's out the way, obviously my country is split on this. The numbers are there for all to see. But we will deal with it and crack on regardless. It's what we do. I disagree with you on the far reaching consequences as far as the split is concerned. So lets leave it at that and maybe revisit these thoughts in 6 months or so.
Rather, I woudl venture that the consequences stem from the fact there was a referendum at all. That's what opened the can of worms.
But good to see we agree on something
Anyway......
19 September 2014, 11:40 AM
#1756
Scooby Regular
Apologies as I genuinely missed this element.....
I'm sure we could openly "discuss" how assumptions made in the bank and business sector have had catastrophic negative impacts on us and the rest of the modern world - when they've gone Pete Tong. I'm sure we could discuss the instances were it has "paid off" as well. However, when YOU have to make a decision based on this kind of scenario, that could potentially impact YOU.... quite often, you look at it differently.
You can't make an informed decision based on an assumption alone. Turn an assumption into a risk and be clear as to how that will be mitigated, is by far the sensible approach. Again, I'm not aware that this was documented and clearly communicated to the voting community.
Above all... be clear, upfront, open and honest. Which is perhaps something we're not used to in the UK.
Anyway, apologies for taking this slightly "off topic".......
I'm sure we could openly "discuss" how assumptions made in the bank and business sector have had catastrophic negative impacts on us and the rest of the modern world - when they've gone Pete Tong. I'm sure we could discuss the instances were it has "paid off" as well. However, when YOU have to make a decision based on this kind of scenario, that could potentially impact YOU.... quite often, you look at it differently.
You can't make an informed decision based on an assumption alone. Turn an assumption into a risk and be clear as to how that will be mitigated, is by far the sensible approach. Again, I'm not aware that this was documented and clearly communicated to the voting community.
Above all... be clear, upfront, open and honest. Which is perhaps something we're not used to in the UK.
Anyway, apologies for taking this slightly "off topic".......
"Its the *basis* of that assumption that matters. Not that is an "assumption""
In politics you'll never get clarity, openness and honesty.
19 September 2014, 11:46 AM
#1757
Scooby Regular
Of course i can get past it
Don't be so quick to assume otherwise. Doesn't stop me questioning your, or any other poster's motive or position on this or any other subject if i disagree with the motive or basis for adopting that position
Last edited by Devildog; 19 September 2014 at 11:48 AM.
19 September 2014, 12:15 PM
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19 September 2014, 12:21 PM
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The negativity of the No campaign was hurting it. They needed to change the record
The 3 party leaders went up there to deliver a positive Unionist message (which they did) look at the speeches they made.
Brown was brought into the fray and made the compelling postive case for the union
They were armed with new powers for Scotland.
It was widely described as a 'love bombing' - a curious term
Ultimately the negative tactics of the campaign was hurting them, not helping hence the narrowing of the polls
19 September 2014, 12:29 PM
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If we stick to the facts...
The negativity of the No campaign was hurting it. They needed to change the record
The 3 party leaders went up there to deliver a positive Unionist message (which they did) look at the speeches they made.
Brown was brought into the fray and made the compelling postive case for the union
They were armed with new powers for Scotland.
It was widely described as a 'love bombing' - a curious term
Ultimately the negative tactics of the campaign was hurting them, not helping hence the narrowing of the polls
The negativity of the No campaign was hurting it. They needed to change the record
The 3 party leaders went up there to deliver a positive Unionist message (which they did) look at the speeches they made.
Brown was brought into the fray and made the compelling postive case for the union
They were armed with new powers for Scotland.
It was widely described as a 'love bombing' - a curious term
Ultimately the negative tactics of the campaign was hurting them, not helping hence the narrowing of the polls
19 September 2014, 12:35 PM
#1764
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19 September 2014, 12:38 PM
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19 September 2014, 12:50 PM
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You can pretend all is great if you like and continue to champion a broken politcial system, a corrupt press and a nation going slowly down the pan... that's entirely up to you.
I on the other hand choose reality!
19 September 2014, 01:19 PM
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At one point, the jocks must have thought they wouldn't get a referendum, but they did, so we need to do the same, to ensure we get the In/Out referendum we want.