PeteBrant

Well other than he walked into the police station and gave himself up. I mean its a bit of a giveaway.

TelBoy

Scum will always hate the Police. When you've only got illegal means to feed/clothe/house yourself, they're a bit of a nuisance with their fancy handcuffs and cells.

GlesgaKiss

Yep. Scum.

speedking

I didn't hear that he had confessed, only that he had surrendered himself.

e.g. on the BBC If he knew others were out to get him, possibly walked in for police protection? As said above, the police would not be taking any prisoners if they got to him first.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Even if he confessed he'd still be suspected until he's convicted.

Also, there are suggestions he made the call about the burglary.

5t.

An0n0m0us

It's almost like a final taunt of the police before going to prison. He knew he was going to go to prison for the first 2 murders so before he did he'd kill some police officers and then go and hand himself in before the armed police got to him. What could the arresting police at the station do to him other than cuff him and put him in a cell before being questioned. He's just murdered two of their colleagues and he turns up and hands himself in for arrest knowing they can't lay a finger on him. Where if he remained on the run the armed police would more than likely shoot him dead.

David Lock

Slight aside. If police/CPS "know" someone committed a serious crime, but have insufficient evidence, is it an offence for them to charge such a person hoping that they will get the necessary evidence before his trial date? Hence keeping him locked up and preventing him from disappearing.

dl

stedee

iTrader: (4)

how did they not have any evidence from the first murders, it was all over the news about this bloke, how did they know it was him ( the dodgy eye maybe) and then he gets bailed. surely there was something to hold him on.

with such a dangerous bloke back on the prowl anyway you think someone would have been keeping tabs on him

TelBoy

The scum Stuart Hazell who has been charged with murdering Tia Sharp is in exactly this situation right now, thankfully.

Leslie

I must say that I am also surprised that he was allowed out on bail if he was suspected of being implicated in a murder. I seem to remember in the past that someone who was suspected of murder would never be released from custody even if they did not have enough evidence to charge that person at the time. Where on earth did he get grenades from anyway?

I also believe that the comparatively high number of murders which happen these days is down to the lack of a strong enough penalty. I personally think that the death penalty should be reinstated because I believe that would serve to make violent people think twice before killing anyone.

Murder used to be a shocking occurrence years ago but these days it seems to be almost accepted as a normal part of the daily news. Doesn't seem to rate many column inches in the papers anyway!

I also think that a lot of trouble of all kinds these days stems from the apparent inability of many parents to bring up their children as responsible and caring members of society.

Les

Martin2005

The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983

I believe that homicide rates have been on a downward trend for the past decade

PeteBrant

So what you are saying is that the police should be allowed to hold people without evidence they did anything wrong for as long as they like.

Not sure I like the sound of that

The way it works is this. You get arrested, the police can hold you for 36 hours without charge, or 96 with a Judges permission. Once you are Charged, the police can either hold you on remand until a court date, or they can Bail you. They won't bail someone they have charged with Murder, they will go on remand.
Cregan was never charged. They did not have enough evidence to charge him. Therefore as much as they knew he might be a wrong'un, they couldnt prove it.
You can't just go locking people up forever without proof they have done something.

Look at the 90 day argument that was had for suspected terrorists. As I remember it, almost everyone here was against people being locked up for 90 days without charge

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Slowly and surely, society is going the way as depicted in Orwell's 1984.

Bit by bit, as violence slowly 'evolves', then, equally bit by bit, we all get that tad bit more dehumanised to it all. Hence today's almost "meh"-like attitude by the media/populous to violent crime/murder cases.

It wouldn't surprise me, that in 50+ years time, what will pass for Sat. night prime-time TV, will be reality shows akin to that depicted in Arnie's Running Man! Modern day Roman Gladiators if you will.

If you can imagine a world where death - to anybody(!) - was considered 'fair game'/part of everyday life (oh the irony!), then you can just imagine the frenzied clamoring by TV execs for such TV-based fayre!

You just watch this space...

David Lock

Now you may hold the moral high ground on this but I asked it it was an offence to charge someone even if evidence, at the time, was weak? Have you answered that?

dl

An0n0m0us

http://news.sky.com/story/987047/cre...ld-at-gunpoint

If he walked into the police station and offered himself up for arrest why didn't they immediately restrain him instead of telling him to go outside so they could point guns at him?

TelBoy

David, to diffuse the situation, the Police cannot just charge somebody with murder on a hunch. If they did, it would be a crime committed by the Police. They have to have sufficient evidence to satisfy a judge that the suspect can be held on remand until a court appearance.

g7prs

iTrader: (5)

I would imagine incase he had hidden explosives on him.

TelBoy

Presumably because he didn't walk into the Police station and say "I've just killed two police officers". He just wanted protection, so just gave himself up without confessing to anything. The front desk then got him out of the building in case he was still armed. Seems logical to me.

Martin2005

The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983

I believe that homicide rates have been on a downward trend for the past decade

GlesgaKiss

Seems hard to believe when you think about it. I'm sure the statistics for 'homicides' are correct, but just look at how violent/ruthless young people and gangs can be with knives or other weapons now.

Perhaps the people on the receiving end are different, so that the violence is more 'noticeable'. Maybe decades ago the murders and violence committed by people involved in organised crime would predominantly be towards others inside their (criminal) community. Now you could be stabbed for looking at some amateur gangsters the wrong way.

David Lock

Shipman rather messed up the graph

dl

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

I can't see society going any other way, though (i.e. get more and more violent).

It may takes centuries rather than decades to realise that disturbing, 'fantasist' world I painted above... But I sure as hell reckon it'll reach something akin to it!

Martin2005

Not surely really

Could be that this is just another cracking example of an urban myth, whipped up by 24hr news and people thinking things used to be better (normally they didn't btw)

hodgy0_2

maybe violence is just inherent in the human condition

maybe this current (and recent) generation(s) have not had a proper world war or two to get the aggression out their system

cetainly in this context, Europe at least, is a lot less violent than it has been in the recent past

TelBoy

DNA matching is probably the biggest factor in falling homicide levels. Big deterrent.

GlesgaKiss

But I thought before the 80s, most youngsters only read comic books, made cakes with their mothers and served lemonade to people in the street. If there was time after all that, they would have time for a chat with grandpa while he passed out werther's.

Now, thanks to immigration - obviously - we have ruthless foreign gangs roaming the streets armed to teeth just looking for someone to kill. They must still think they're in their native lands. It's bloody frightening.

hodgy0_2

which proves the point, long known by criminologist

it is probability of capture rather than the level of punishment that is the more effective deterrent.

mrmadcap

In years past a world war kicked off and all the great unwashed got conscripted into the army, many were killed but the ones that survived arrived back in civy street better human beings after their wartime experiences.

Martin2005

That would be the 'great unwashed' who laid down their lives so hero's like you can
sit behind a PC and dishonour them!!!!!

David Lock

No need to insult the decent working class people who gave their lives to give you a chance

dl