The great mapping rip off
31 July 2012, 08:08 AM
#302
Hats off an respect for toneh for starting such a I motive subject and remaining calm to the end
Yes we were expecting jimmyinrugby style rants but no ,nothing but good technical chat and thanks for Paul coming in and explaining costs of running his business and why he needs to charge that amount
Great thread
Don't disappear Toneh as you have caused a. Lot of thinking and questions which is what a forum is all about
Yes we were expecting jimmyinrugby style rants but no ,nothing but good technical chat and thanks for Paul coming in and explaining costs of running his business and why he needs to charge that amount
Great thread
Don't disappear Toneh as you have caused a. Lot of thinking and questions which is what a forum is all about
31 July 2012, 08:43 AM
#303
Scooby Regular
so we have gone from mapping your own, to mapping a mates car as well.
thats extactly how open source started,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so question is, can he beat 7/20?
thats extactly how open source started,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so question is, can he beat 7/20?
31 July 2012, 09:12 AM
#304
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
toneh, the disorganisation of your argument would be enough to make me not want you to map my car. It is possible to look at competence on a scale and also pair it with an individual's recognition of their own limitations. There is a dangerous combination when someone believes they have more competence than they do. Those with little competence who know it are no problem. Those with competence who underestimate it need continual checking, but again they can be managed.
You wading in to this only recently not appreciating the need for a wideband, having experienced a small fraction of that of the people who you readily criticise, and then responding emotionally has not done you any favours.
Do you tend to fall out with people a lot?
You wading in to this only recently not appreciating the need for a wideband, having experienced a small fraction of that of the people who you readily criticise, and then responding emotionally has not done you any favours.
Do you tend to fall out with people a lot?
31 July 2012, 09:41 AM
#305
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the fast lane
Posts: 3,458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you really think Paul's reputation, or any other pro mapper's rep for that matter, will be at all tarnished if he posts up a power run of a car that you mapped and made 'good' power?
IMO people like Paul would have far more to lose in such a demonstration if your map couldn't support a safe full power run. Picture it, your engine goes pop with Paul at the wheel during a RR session.
Nuff said I think.
31 July 2012, 10:25 AM
#307
i still think he has a point though. You say if its a map you did before , you only tweak for the latest mod. But that would mean (maybe your prices are different)
For one customer -
£550+vat for licence
£150+travel for map
£150 for any revisits due to mods (tweak)
Thats alot in my opinion. If it can be justified , we can all relax.
if its experience we are paying for , the first map cost is fair enough , but a tweak for a simple mod doesnt need all that experience to be paid for again.
Ok , maybe the whole maping isnt a ripoff , but some of it sure feels like it !
For one customer -
£550+vat for licence
£150+travel for map
£150 for any revisits due to mods (tweak)
Thats alot in my opinion. If it can be justified , we can all relax.
if its experience we are paying for , the first map cost is fair enough , but a tweak for a simple mod doesnt need all that experience to be paid for again.
Ok , maybe the whole maping isnt a ripoff , but some of it sure feels like it !
People have stated that it's a rip off for ECUTek remaps - but the biggest cost you'll typically encounter is the cost of the license itself - £300+VAT is the going rate for an ECUTek license I believe. The cost of the mapper's time is usually somewhat less!
Not sure where CharlySkunkWeed got £550 from!?
If you don't want to pay that, go open source, there are still plenty of people out there who use it.
I went the ECUTek route as I'm somewhat happier that it's tried and tested software with a full support team behind it; being a software developer by trade I know that open source is often left to fester and is seldom updated given that the developers responsible don't make a huge profit from it.
However, the experienced guys using open source who know their stuff can't be all that bad or there would be threads everywhere saying "blew up my car with RomRaider or ECUExplorer"
To the the poster who got charged £175+VAT for dyno time - that is a rip-off my friend. I wouldn't pay more than £100 max, and would usually expect to be charged less.
And please don't **** and moan about travel charges - find somewhere more local to you if you can't afford it; petrol isn't cheap and some of these guys travel miles around the country.
£150 is what - a couple of tanks of VPower? If the mapper is travelling long distance in a Scoob I don't think that's unfair - and as suggested, you can always do a group buy.
I'm a repeat customer of JGM - he has an excellent reputation, has been doing this for years, and knows his stuff.
Simon has mapped (and subsequently re-mapped on several occassions
) my last two cars, and in all instances, on the first map he typically spends I'd estimate somewhere in the region of 90 minutes (maybe longer, it's been a few months!) setting everything up, doing several runs, road test with det cans, etc. to ensure the map gives me the most he can get from my car within safe parameters.I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending him to my friends or other people on this forum.
The time Simon has spent in the past in giving me advice on mods and how to fix stuff that's gone wrong on the phone just shows what a genuine nice guy he is, and like Paul already said, mappers don't get paid for that side of it so before trying to jump up and down on these people perhaps some need to take a step back and reconsider their arguments.
Last edited by MrNoisy; 31 July 2012 at 10:31 AM.
31 July 2012, 11:28 AM
#308
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wantage, UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, charging an extortionate license fee per ECU is not. The pro-tuner versions of EcuTek are already horrifically expensive for the mappers as it is, so the per ECU license is just EcuTek taking the pi55. I could understand it if it came with a license of Delta Dash but just to be able to have a tuner map your ECU?
They have a monopoly, and unless more people are prepared to go open source and force their hand, EcuTek will continue to fleece people as much as they can. Don't get me wrong, EcuTek software is great - it's just the business model I have issues with.
As for mapping itself being a rip off, for the likes of JGM, Zen, BR etc... I don't think it is. I mapped my current car (if you have an interest in it, then do it, it's very satisfying and not as scary as it's made out - which is possibly the OP's real point?), anyway it took me months of research until I was happy that I understood enough, followed by weeks of logging sessions and making fine adjustments in response to get the map spot. When Bob Rawle mapped my previous car, that same process took him a couple of hours. An in reality, it is that expertise that you're paying for.
31 July 2012, 11:46 AM
#309
Aren't we just talking about any profession and any product/service which takes experience and time?
I was quoted £3-4k for a driveway. I did it myself for £1k. Its a drive, it functions but its not as pretty as what i could have ended up with. Isn't this the same as having pretty much anything done by a professional?.
This is why we all work, we all have our profession's and we could probably all do each others job's if we were given the right training and tools to do so.
Congrats to the OP for trying your hand at something I would consider technical and difficult and saving yourself some £££ in the process. It doesn't mean experts are ripping people off by doing this as a profession.
I was quoted £3-4k for a driveway. I did it myself for £1k. Its a drive, it functions but its not as pretty as what i could have ended up with. Isn't this the same as having pretty much anything done by a professional?.
This is why we all work, we all have our profession's and we could probably all do each others job's if we were given the right training and tools to do so.
Congrats to the OP for trying your hand at something I would consider technical and difficult and saving yourself some £££ in the process. It doesn't mean experts are ripping people off by doing this as a profession.
31 July 2012, 11:47 AM
#310
I agree with most of that, but Ecutek do earn their money. It would be lovely if the open source or alternative products were as complete for as many cars and models and provided guaranteed support pretty much 24/7 for free, but that's not going to happen. Ecutek is a business with quite a few staff to keep churning out the products and support, they can't pay the wages with fairy dust! So as much as I hate paying the bills I do continue to buy from Ecutek. It's not everyone's choice but it works for me.
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
Agreed. EcuTek are the one's who are the real "rip off". They make money selling very expensive software to the mappers which is fair enough.
However, charging an extortionate license fee per ECU is not. The pro-tuner versions of EcuTek are already horrifically expensive for the mappers as it is, so the per ECU license is just EcuTek taking the pi55. I could understand it if it came with a license of Delta Dash but just to be able to have a tuner map your ECU?
They have a monopoly, and unless more people are prepared to go open source and force their hand, EcuTek will continue to fleece people as much as they can. Don't get me wrong, EcuTek software is great - it's just the business model I have issues with.
As for mapping itself being a rip off, for the likes of JGM, Zen, BR etc... I don't think it is. I mapped my current car (if you have an interest in it, then do it, it's very satisfying and not as scary as it's made out - which is possibly the OP's real point?), anyway it took me months of research until I was happy that I understood enough, followed by weeks of logging sessions and making fine adjustments in response to get the map spot. When Bob Rawle mapped my previous car, that same process took him a couple of hours. An in reality, it is that expertise that you're paying for.
However, charging an extortionate license fee per ECU is not. The pro-tuner versions of EcuTek are already horrifically expensive for the mappers as it is, so the per ECU license is just EcuTek taking the pi55. I could understand it if it came with a license of Delta Dash but just to be able to have a tuner map your ECU?
They have a monopoly, and unless more people are prepared to go open source and force their hand, EcuTek will continue to fleece people as much as they can. Don't get me wrong, EcuTek software is great - it's just the business model I have issues with.
As for mapping itself being a rip off, for the likes of JGM, Zen, BR etc... I don't think it is. I mapped my current car (if you have an interest in it, then do it, it's very satisfying and not as scary as it's made out - which is possibly the OP's real point?), anyway it took me months of research until I was happy that I understood enough, followed by weeks of logging sessions and making fine adjustments in response to get the map spot. When Bob Rawle mapped my previous car, that same process took him a couple of hours. An in reality, it is that expertise that you're paying for.
31 July 2012, 11:55 AM
#311
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: north of the south border
Posts: 4,510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with most of that, but Ecutek do earn their money. It would be lovely if the open source or alternative products were as complete for as many cars and models and provided guaranteed support pretty much 24/7 for free, but that's not going to happen. Ecutek is a business with quite a few staff to keep churning out the products and support, they can't pay the wages with fairy dust! So as much as I hate paying the bills I do continue to buy from Ecutek. It's not everyone's choice but it works for me.
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
(sorry)ps, your input on this thread has been very educating
31 July 2012, 12:11 PM
#313
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wantage, UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with most of that, but Ecutek do earn their money. It would be lovely if the open source or alternative products were as complete for as many cars and models and provided guaranteed support pretty much 24/7 for free, but that's not going to happen. Ecutek is a business with quite a few staff to keep churning out the products and support, they can't pay the wages with fairy dust! So as much as I hate paying the bills I do continue to buy from Ecutek. It's not everyone's choice but it works for me.
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
But many many cars already have ecutek license on, so a remap in the case is much less than the sort of figures quoted here.
Paul
However, EcuTek do already charge you (a lot) for the pro tools. I just see it as taking two bites of the cherry when they charge a per ECU license as well.... imagine if Microsoft charged a license for every Word doc you created using their software.
31 July 2012, 12:21 PM
#314
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These are always great topics.
Just like any other product, 99% of the population don't understand the costs involved in staying solvent in a limited retail sector such as aftermarket and OEM remapping and always feel aggrieved at paying a professional to do the job properly just because he can do it in less time than it takes the owner to earn £50 wages, and then charges him £500 for it.
The equipment / licensing and software side of mapping is extremely expensive, especially when you get into the really hard to do stuff like OE management, and that's before you factor in hardware, general overheads and of course the route of all evil, advertising to get that customer to you in the first place.
A skilled mapper is in fact an engine tuning expert above all else, and its this skill you also have to pay for. Yes you can get some freeware stuff off the internet and tweak some tables to give more fuel etc at home, but do you really understand the consequences of doing so or are you convinced that because it hasn't blown up on you it must be correct? or because it made good power on a dyno it must be good?
I would love to get into a questions and answers type scenario with ten DIY mappers on here and see just how much they really know. Absolutely not in order to make them feel silly, but to highlight a few issues they are very unlikely to have even ever considered while tweaking their maps. A good calibration covers so many things you wont even have considered that it would probably amaze most of you and indeed make a great topic, but then, its extremely unlikely that most of you have had any tuition or quality time with a genuinely good mapper who totally understands engines / calibrations and the various interactions between not only the engine and the management but outside influencing factors as well.
In fact, there really aren't that many "professional" mappers out there who genuinely know enough to get into that discussion in public with a true professional who does it for a living day in and day out and really can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. LOL
Just like any other product, 99% of the population don't understand the costs involved in staying solvent in a limited retail sector such as aftermarket and OEM remapping and always feel aggrieved at paying a professional to do the job properly just because he can do it in less time than it takes the owner to earn £50 wages, and then charges him £500 for it.
The equipment / licensing and software side of mapping is extremely expensive, especially when you get into the really hard to do stuff like OE management, and that's before you factor in hardware, general overheads and of course the route of all evil, advertising to get that customer to you in the first place.
A skilled mapper is in fact an engine tuning expert above all else, and its this skill you also have to pay for. Yes you can get some freeware stuff off the internet and tweak some tables to give more fuel etc at home, but do you really understand the consequences of doing so or are you convinced that because it hasn't blown up on you it must be correct? or because it made good power on a dyno it must be good?
I would love to get into a questions and answers type scenario with ten DIY mappers on here and see just how much they really know. Absolutely not in order to make them feel silly, but to highlight a few issues they are very unlikely to have even ever considered while tweaking their maps. A good calibration covers so many things you wont even have considered that it would probably amaze most of you and indeed make a great topic, but then, its extremely unlikely that most of you have had any tuition or quality time with a genuinely good mapper who totally understands engines / calibrations and the various interactions between not only the engine and the management but outside influencing factors as well.
In fact, there really aren't that many "professional" mappers out there who genuinely know enough to get into that discussion in public with a true professional who does it for a living day in and day out and really can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. LOL
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 12:31 PM.
31 July 2012, 12:32 PM
#315
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Spec C - 12.5 @ 110(340/350)
Posts: 2,314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any chance of us getting an Engine Management Sub forum as per our cousins over the pond on Naisoc? Not just covering OS, but all the commercial options too.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
31 July 2012, 12:35 PM
#316
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any chance of us getting an Engine Management Sub forum as per our cousins over the pond on Naisoc? Not just covering OS, but all the commercial options too.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
31 July 2012, 12:44 PM
#317
Stu .... bang on bud! This thread is comedy .... so much BS kicking about by people with a much larger bucket of confidence (and possibly luck), than theyre bucket of well proven knowledge and skill!
"In fact, there really aren't that many "professional" mappers out there who genuinely know enough to get into that discussion in public with a true professional who does it for a living day in and day out and really can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. LOL"
Other problem might be finding a proffessional mapper who has the time to contribute to such a thread ..... im fairly sure Bobs busy till October ..... which is suprising if hes actually carrying out daylight robbery as the OP has suggested!
"In fact, there really aren't that many "professional" mappers out there who genuinely know enough to get into that discussion in public with a true professional who does it for a living day in and day out and really can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. LOL"
Other problem might be finding a proffessional mapper who has the time to contribute to such a thread ..... im fairly sure Bobs busy till October ..... which is suprising if hes actually carrying out daylight robbery as the OP has suggested!
31 July 2012, 12:54 PM
#319
Scooby Regular
Stu,
From a personal perspective I think the Subaru community have lost out on not experiencing your mapping knowledge / ability and the impact that could of had on our cars!
You've let us down!!!!
From a personal perspective I think the Subaru community have lost out on not experiencing your mapping knowledge / ability and the impact that could of had on our cars!
You've let us down!!!!
31 July 2012, 01:05 PM
#321
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a more serious note, I do quite regret not getting further into the Scooby scene as it has some very interesting cars and characters in its fold, but OE took over and we simply didn't have the time to perfect yet another ECU and Ecutek said we couldn't have a system from them as they had someone quite local to us, so I just dropped the idea from my mind. Anyway... BMW is where its at as you and sideways well know deep down.
31 July 2012, 01:18 PM
#322
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wantage, UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A skilled mapper is in fact an engine tuning expert above all else, and its this skill you also have to pay for. Yes you can get some freeware stuff off the internet and tweak some tables to give more fuel etc, but do you really understand the consequences of doing so or are you convinced that because it hasn't blown up on you it must be correct?
I would love to get into a questions and answers type scenario with ten DIY mappers on here and see just how much they really know. Absolutely not in order to make them feel silly, but to highlight a few issues they are very unlikely to have even ever considered while tweaking their maps. A good calibration covers so many things you wont even have considered that it would probably amaze most of you, but then, its extremely unlikely that most of you have had any tuition or quality time with a quality mapper who totally understands engines / calibrations and the various interactions between not only the engine and the management but outside factors as well.
I would love to get into a questions and answers type scenario with ten DIY mappers on here and see just how much they really know. Absolutely not in order to make them feel silly, but to highlight a few issues they are very unlikely to have even ever considered while tweaking their maps. A good calibration covers so many things you wont even have considered that it would probably amaze most of you, but then, its extremely unlikely that most of you have had any tuition or quality time with a quality mapper who totally understands engines / calibrations and the various interactions between not only the engine and the management but outside factors as well.
However it doesn't mean to say that other people can't gather that knowledge and experience as well so simply to dismiss every one that self-maps as being someone who simply "downloads some software and tweaks a few values" is very short sighted.
Plenty of people do their own servicing and mechanical work on their cars to a very high level (better than a lot of garages) so why should we put down those members of the community who wish to do the same with the ECU side of their vehicles?
Engine management is nothing new... remember points, distributors and carburettor jetting? I bet plenty of people on here were happy to adjust those in the past. Just because their function has now been replaced with a computer doesn't mean the basic principles of engine management have changed.
I don't think the OP did himself any favours with the thread title but the response to self-mapping has been the same as it always it, i.e. "you're all morons for trying, will never be able to create a good map and will blow your engine into small pieces" which is just not true.
31 July 2012, 01:24 PM
#323
Scooby Regular
It's interesting that you think there are "things that would probably amaze" people who self-map - why? It sounds like you think that engine management is impossible to learn. Do you think that Paul, Bob, Simon etc were all born with some great gift that the rest of us weren't? Of course not, whilst they undoubtedly have a tallent for it, they have also invested a great deal of time and money to gather their knowledge and hone their skills and now quite rightly charge to impart that knowledge.
However it doesn't mean to say that other people can't gather that knowledge and experience as well so simply to dismiss every one that self-maps as being someone who simply "downloads some software and tweaks a few values" is very short sighted.
Plenty of people do their own servicing and mechanical work on their cars to a very high level (better than a lot of garages) so why should we put down those members of the community who wish to do the same with the ECU side of their vehicles?
Engine management is nothing new... remember points, distributors and carburettor jetting? I bet plenty of people on here were happy to adjust those in the past. Just because their function has now been replaced with a computer doesn't mean the basic principles of engine management have changed.
I don't think the OP did himself any favours with the thread title but the response to self-mapping has been the same as it always it, i.e. "you're all morons for trying, will never be able to create a good map and will blow your engine into small pieces" which is just not true.
However it doesn't mean to say that other people can't gather that knowledge and experience as well so simply to dismiss every one that self-maps as being someone who simply "downloads some software and tweaks a few values" is very short sighted.
Plenty of people do their own servicing and mechanical work on their cars to a very high level (better than a lot of garages) so why should we put down those members of the community who wish to do the same with the ECU side of their vehicles?
Engine management is nothing new... remember points, distributors and carburettor jetting? I bet plenty of people on here were happy to adjust those in the past. Just because their function has now been replaced with a computer doesn't mean the basic principles of engine management have changed.
I don't think the OP did himself any favours with the thread title but the response to self-mapping has been the same as it always it, i.e. "you're all morons for trying, will never be able to create a good map and will blow your engine into small pieces" which is just not true.
31 July 2012, 01:26 PM
#324
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wantage, UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any chance of us getting an Engine Management Sub forum as per our cousins over the pond on Naisoc? Not just covering OS, but all the commercial options too.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
If their sub- forum and that of the Mitsubishi sites is anything to go by, it'll be a busy and a useful addition to ScoobyNet.
Would be great to have somewhere that those of us interested in mapping our own cars could share knowledge etc... even if ultimately we end up blowing our cars up in the process!
31 July 2012, 01:29 PM
#325
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I don't think the response has been "you're all morons for trying", there has been a sensible attempt to introduce other factors to make the discussion more balanced, not least from Paul Blamire (Pavlo).
I'm certainly not of that view and have encouraged self mapping before on other forums, but have never been particularly polarised as I've switched between being an amateur, professional mapper (albeit mobile in my spare time), then an amateur, then a contributor to open source, then contracting to an engine management company doing reverse engineering (again in my spare time but up to an average of 32 hours a week over 2 1/2 years), then finally an interested amateur again.
It is possible to have an informed discussion about the balance and appropriateness of each technique without leaping to extreme and excitable conclusions. It can read like a teenager having their first orgasm and then thinking they can be a sex therapist otherwise.
I'm certainly not of that view and have encouraged self mapping before on other forums, but have never been particularly polarised as I've switched between being an amateur, professional mapper (albeit mobile in my spare time), then an amateur, then a contributor to open source, then contracting to an engine management company doing reverse engineering (again in my spare time but up to an average of 32 hours a week over 2 1/2 years), then finally an interested amateur again.
It is possible to have an informed discussion about the balance and appropriateness of each technique without leaping to extreme and excitable conclusions. It can read like a teenager having their first orgasm and then thinking they can be a sex therapist otherwise.
Last edited by john banks; 31 July 2012 at 01:32 PM.
31 July 2012, 01:32 PM
#327
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wantage, UK
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may not have any desire to know anything about ECU mapping, you may even find the subject too tricky to learn. Not everyone is the same.
31 July 2012, 01:33 PM
#328
Scooby Regular
31 July 2012, 01:33 PM
#329
I put mapping on the same level as setting up the fuelling and ignition on a mechanical ignition/carburettored engine. Which whilst its a dying skill, it is well and openly documentaed art so very DIY-able and a fundamental base for understanding ALL forms of engine tuning. Despite this its amazing how many people be it mechanics and tuners or not just can't get it right.
Infact it probably takes more initiative and experience to get it right as there no feedback system barring a "by the pants" feeling on a test run.
For example, getting the acelerator pump and jetting right on a DCOE or springs and needles on a SU does require a knack and good sensory skills that no laptop, scope or exhaust probe could ever fully accomplish. Same with messing with the spring weights on a distributor.
What I really find concerening is mappers having little or no proper mechanical skills with rebuilding a engine or transmission. I'm not saying they need to do it for a living, more to say the ones who don't have direct "hands-one" experience of the cause and effect of getting it wrong themselves, I think they haven't learnt anything by it. When people like this are fiddling with maps, its easy to palm a failure onto something else other than the map that was bit too hot for the engine/drivetrain to cope with (especially on aging turbo'd/supercharged cars) as there are so many unknowns.
Me? I'm all about safety margins. I have a rule that power output is proportional to drivetrain and engine wear. Assuming the state of tune is correct. The latter is the crux, especially on MAF based fueling. Yeah, wide-band closed-loop control is the key to making it easier but still its only one point...there is so much more to it.
Back to that example; What was the acelerator pump on a carberettor is now a momentary enrichment on top of the calculated mapping value...If its not enough, it makes the car cough and pink during the millisecond period that you stomp on the loud pedal with delay of the system reacting to it, or it giving out a chuff if of black smoke if its too much. In between, getting the sweet spot is purely done by feel...no sensor (bar a very very breif knock if your're lucky) will tell you this, its pure seat of the pants, as ignition timing has effects too, and its a balance between them both (bit more fuel, little less advance) and then you have to compensate and get a best fit for most driving conditions. Its one reason why everything is drive by wire now as it can elliminate momentary lean/rich conditions at the expense of throttle response (as it can selectively ignore/dampen driver inputs from the pedal). Thats why people with a well tuned DCOE'd carb engine notices a much snappier throttle response than the same engine on EFi. The EFi engine with the right ECU "could" be made to react the same or better, but like tuning a carb..it requires a knack to get it perfect.
Its not all about tuning it right either, its also noticing when things are wrong...bad valve seating, one injector not spraying right, sticking or dribbling. Carbon deposits/hotspots. Hell...even a dodgy spark plug. If you just focus on the mapping these critical things can be overlooked and extremes can cost you an engine!
I've got some technical articals about identifying a injector that mometarily sticks so takes longer to open and liekly giving a incorrect spray pattern, giving fueling trim and missfire issues on the affected cylinder. It mainly follows with a oscilloscope check and it goes pretty indepth at showing how the current/voltage plots behave when the solonoid overcomes the increased stiction. Fine. But if its minor enough not to throw a fault code, the average driver wouldn't even feel or notice it. Would a mapper notice either? This is what I'm getting at; that very minor uneveness at idle, the slight fuel trim values being richer than normal with a touch of knock activity....would he just map it to suit and cover it up. Or would he investigate it futher?
The art in it all is knowing it all and being able to detect that it is alright or not. You can indeed have all the gear and no idea. Some people out there are good enough to notice and correctly identify problems without any equipment from a test drive.....many try to emulate it and think they can, but fail. Both DIY and alleged Professionals.
Infact it probably takes more initiative and experience to get it right as there no feedback system barring a "by the pants" feeling on a test run.
For example, getting the acelerator pump and jetting right on a DCOE or springs and needles on a SU does require a knack and good sensory skills that no laptop, scope or exhaust probe could ever fully accomplish. Same with messing with the spring weights on a distributor.
What I really find concerening is mappers having little or no proper mechanical skills with rebuilding a engine or transmission. I'm not saying they need to do it for a living, more to say the ones who don't have direct "hands-one" experience of the cause and effect of getting it wrong themselves, I think they haven't learnt anything by it. When people like this are fiddling with maps, its easy to palm a failure onto something else other than the map that was bit too hot for the engine/drivetrain to cope with (especially on aging turbo'd/supercharged cars) as there are so many unknowns.
Me? I'm all about safety margins. I have a rule that power output is proportional to drivetrain and engine wear. Assuming the state of tune is correct. The latter is the crux, especially on MAF based fueling. Yeah, wide-band closed-loop control is the key to making it easier but still its only one point...there is so much more to it.
Back to that example; What was the acelerator pump on a carberettor is now a momentary enrichment on top of the calculated mapping value...If its not enough, it makes the car cough and pink during the millisecond period that you stomp on the loud pedal with delay of the system reacting to it, or it giving out a chuff if of black smoke if its too much. In between, getting the sweet spot is purely done by feel...no sensor (bar a very very breif knock if your're lucky) will tell you this, its pure seat of the pants, as ignition timing has effects too, and its a balance between them both (bit more fuel, little less advance) and then you have to compensate and get a best fit for most driving conditions. Its one reason why everything is drive by wire now as it can elliminate momentary lean/rich conditions at the expense of throttle response (as it can selectively ignore/dampen driver inputs from the pedal). Thats why people with a well tuned DCOE'd carb engine notices a much snappier throttle response than the same engine on EFi. The EFi engine with the right ECU "could" be made to react the same or better, but like tuning a carb..it requires a knack to get it perfect.
Its not all about tuning it right either, its also noticing when things are wrong...bad valve seating, one injector not spraying right, sticking or dribbling. Carbon deposits/hotspots. Hell...even a dodgy spark plug. If you just focus on the mapping these critical things can be overlooked and extremes can cost you an engine!
I've got some technical articals about identifying a injector that mometarily sticks so takes longer to open and liekly giving a incorrect spray pattern, giving fueling trim and missfire issues on the affected cylinder. It mainly follows with a oscilloscope check and it goes pretty indepth at showing how the current/voltage plots behave when the solonoid overcomes the increased stiction. Fine. But if its minor enough not to throw a fault code, the average driver wouldn't even feel or notice it. Would a mapper notice either? This is what I'm getting at; that very minor uneveness at idle, the slight fuel trim values being richer than normal with a touch of knock activity....would he just map it to suit and cover it up. Or would he investigate it futher?
The art in it all is knowing it all and being able to detect that it is alright or not. You can indeed have all the gear and no idea. Some people out there are good enough to notice and correctly identify problems without any equipment from a test drive.....many try to emulate it and think they can, but fail. Both DIY and alleged Professionals.
Last edited by ALi-B; 31 July 2012 at 01:38 PM.
31 July 2012, 01:35 PM
#330
Scooby Regular
also coudl the monkey cope if things didn't go exactly right? thats where the expertise comes into its own