That is a pretty rude and unfairly disparaging comment to make. I make no apologies for supporting my own country. I happen to believe that loyalty to one's own country is nothing to be ashamed of, that might even be why I spent a good many years with my neck on the line defending it in company with my crew.

Don't see why it should make a difference as far as my present home is concerned. For your interest I live in sometimes sunny Devon where a big advantage is that most of the local people still possess the old values in life where people look out for each other instead of trying to do them down at the first opportunity.

I also happen to prefer that we look after our own laws etc. because I think that we can do it better and that it will also suit our own requirements in life far better. Our own traditions and culture built up over the centuries are too valuable to throw away.

How do you feel about handing this country over to a centralised and non accountable group who have already shown their own incompetence...in spades? Their own accounts have not been passed by the auditors for years now! Where has all that money gone? We cannot even vote them in or out! Do you feel you can trust them?

How do you also feel about the loss of any real pretence at democracy? Do you honestly think you would have any semblance of control about the way you would like to live your life if we were totally controlled by such a federal controlling authority? They are already demonstrating faster moves towards federalisation. Jean Monnet was the man of course!

I believe that Cameron at last has shown a bit of bottle by letting them know that he will not accept us losing control of our own finances and the business associated with all that. I think he did the right thing even if they are all p'eed off because he is not prepared to give all that control away to them.

I imagine you do actually realise the full Euro ambition and it is worth thinking very hard about the consequences should they achieve it with us involved.

Since you asked,I think it is only fair that you answer my questions too. I won't actually bother to fall into the trap of any kind of insulting references since I don't feel it does anything to strengthen any kind of argument of course.

Les

 

Please enlighten us about what is going on.

Les

 

Can we stand alone? That's the key question, I think. How confident do people feel about our capacity to punch above our weight over the coming centuries? If we can, great. If not, it'll be a humiliating climb-down when we ask to accede to the United States of Europe. We'll be second class-citizens and the history books will teach that the British didn't do their bit when the USE was being formed.

 

 

A rare occurnce I know, but I concur with this thought process 100%.

 

Hey, Les

Oh, how great was life in the Kingdom of Wessex! Had you been around in Ancient Britain (and mentally you may still be there) you’d have no doubt fought tooth and nail to stop the transfer of power to those 'crooks' in the government in London.

I don’t doubt your loyalty to your country but it’s the lack of vision, backward looking, 'we do it best' arrogance that I don’t buy.

Nobody’s stopping the UK making laws. The Daily Mail (a 'newspaper' as Euro-spectic as you) claimed the last government introduced 2,685 laws per year.

And how is it that a 400 year old culture that stamped itself and its language on every corner of the globe is now suddenly under threat of being thrown away? By who? The German’s haven’t stopped being German nor the French French. And I haven’t noticed that the English any less English?

Cameron put his party before his country, reckons he's showed those pesky Europeans who boss and came back waving his ***** in triumph.

All he's really done is appeased the right, lost the UK power and influence and p*ssed off our neighbours. And he’s downgraded our status from semi-detached in Europe to totally ineffective.

And where to now?

The world balance of power and wealth is changing rapidly and you and Cameron want to take us back to a 1960s utopia. You’ll happily dump Europe (or risk having them dump us) to take on and conquer rising economies with whom our total trade stands at less than our’s with Ireland, and do it on our own.

At least us ‘philes have a vision of something better.

Let’s have a referendum in Feb/March on In or Out. With 10% undecided (despite the screaming anti-Europe media) there’s still all to play for.

By the way, Devon must have changed since I lived there last. Certainly nobody looked out for me when my job took me there for 9 months back in the 90s. In fact it was quite the opposite; I found people openly hostile. But then I was an outsider.

Sam

 

That's the one, David.

Politicians without b@lls.......who'd ha' thought it?

 

I don't think the UK will stand alone, we're still a fully fledge member of the European Union and a major trading nation in the single market. Cameron's decision doesn't change that. But what will change is Britain's influence in this market, by how much, we don't really know until the amendments to the treaty has been ratified. I also expect there will be some form of retribution from Sarkozy and Merkel and which will no doubt reduce Britain's strength within the EU. If that happens it could possibly make our relation with the USA just that bit more frostier as the Britain tends to look after the USA's interest within Europe. Time for Cameron to build some bridges...

 

As I've pointed out, I'm an agnostic searching for his crystal ball around this, so please don't take this as either a challenge or a prompt to enforce your position.

In what condition do you think the Tobin Tax would've left Britain in the short-term? I need convincing without sophistry and rhetoric, but with facts and realistic projections.

 

What form will these take?

 

The commonwealth, many Countries which have seen unprecedented economic growth over the last few decades.
Many Euro fanatics love to scream little Englander when you mention loosening ties with the EU. The truth is though Europe is an ageing elite of old superpowers desperate to hold on to some of that past glory, and propping up a whole host of failing economies in a desperate attempt to do so.

The question is will they have us back after we sold them out when we joined the common market.

 

Sorry but this is Scoobynet; there’s not a single fact to be found on here, just rhetoric, opinion, prejudice and ridicule.

And just how agnostic are you? As an 'agnostic' you’d have to believe that the good or otherwise of the EU cannot be proven or disproved. By definition an agnostic cannot be convinced. So what’s the use of asking for facts?

The veto Cameron exercised was over whether, to attempt to save the Euro, existing treaties could be amended to incorporate fiscal and economic disciplines. Cameron said only if any changes ensured safeguards for the City of London. Safeguard weren’t forthcoming so he vetoed it. No negotiation.

So the fiscal and economic changes by the 26 will take place within a new agreement or treaty.

Why’s your crystal ball telling you that it was veto or 'Tobin'? What’s the Tobin tax got to do with Cameron's veto?


A Tobin tax is just one of several ideas mooted for building a bailout fund for failing economies. It’s in the mix along with Germany underwriting all Euro debt, 'Eurobonds', EU Central bank bailout, IMF funding, printing Euros, debt write-off, default and do nothing.

Cameron left even before the talk got round to ‘the how’. And we’re not in the room negotiating or overseeing a solution. That’ll help the UK no end!

In any case, I don’t know the effects of a Tobin tax on the UK. It depends on:
- the level of the tax. I’ve seen various proposals from 0.0006% to .5%
- what it’s levied on e.g. FX transactions, bonds, other securities, or any finacial transaction
- who it’s levied on; transactions in Europe, Europe & America, the World
- how easy it would be to avoid

I don’t have a fact for that. Do you?

 

Thanks for this email. It actually answered my question as to what it was all about

Regarding my part in bold, if these are new treaties, can the results/rules be enforced upon the UK if we don't sign them?

 

I'd love to know what era you'd like us to return to

 

No, there wasn't an actual treaty on the table, but it's an indisputable fact that Germany amongst others was pushing for an unanimous agreement from all member states so that a new treaty could immediately be put on the table. On that basis, it's a little OTT to say Cameron's lying or misrepresenting the situation.

 

Last week Cameron used the UK veto (as was his right) to bar any amendment to any existing EU treaties thus forcing the 26 to begin negotiating a new treaty to introduce Eurozone fiscal changes.

As I said: ... what’s the use of asking for facts?

 

Indeed, what use are they, when you have the situation completely back to front. Unanimous agreement was needed in order to start work on a new treaty, and it's now that Britain has vetoed the agreement that the other members will have to figure out a way forwards without one.

Try to keep up

 

No, as we won't have signed up to them.

 

New poxy treaty to rescue the euro whilst another band of hangers-on join the merry throng

No way hosay

 

Rhetoric and sophistry, not quite the start I was hoping for.

Even Dave's worked this one out.

So are you of the view that Cameron could have come away with a better deal, then? If so, what evidence do you have for this?

But Britain doesn't have to adhere to them, does she? Or are you saying that the same impositions will apply whether we're there or not?

One of Cameron's principle objections to the proposal was that the Tobin or FTT had to be global in order to work. It was strongly indicated that a significant chunk of the financial services sector in London (and by extension across the UK) would foxtrot oscar elsewhere if they'd been forced to adhere to the tax. Now, given our reliance in the short-term on the FS sector, it could well have left Britain wholly in the shït if we'd accepted the proposal and said chunk did indeed foxtrot oscar. I'm asking you to convince me that that would not have happened.

Ideas mooted? It was a clear, explicit part of the proposal as far as I know. Again, I'm happy to see evidence to the contrary.

Cameron was told, categorically, that concessions would not be made. End of story. Off he went.

If it's a critical element of Cameron's decision to walk away, which I understand it is, surely one ought to be armed with the details and knowledge of the "effects on the UK", before asserting such an adamant position.

No, hence my agnosticism.

 

So Camerons choice was to either agree to a load of undefined unspecified crap that could have caused extreme hardship to the UK's finances or tell the EU to foxtrot oscar ?
Why is there even a debate ? We know that France and Germany were always going to be allied together against the UK, that was the point of the EU to start with so why are we even deluding ourselves that the EU would be good for the UK ?
Sarkozy knows how weak the position of French banks is currently and has to be the lapdog of Merkel but Germany does not have an infinite amount of money. When the French banks fail, the Germans will have rioting in the streets.
The UK is better off to build relationships with new trading partners , as the third world advances there are plenty of people ready to pay the premium for UK products.

 

Les: I have FAR too much respect for you as a person, a member on here, and for what you did for us all. My post wasn't meant to be either unfair, or insulting, and if you found it to be either, I'm sorry, truly.

It's just thst every time I read your posts, they ALWAYS mention wanting to be British, be our own men, not be ruled by Europe, defend our sovereignty, etc etc, with never a comment about any positives.

I just wondered why, and then, how you saw yourself?

I regard myself as British and proud of it. I'm NOT particularly proud of the UK over the last few years, we have done far too many sneaky things and far too much bum licking to the USA, (who I continue to regards as MUCH more of a threat than the EC could EVER be), but I despair of what's happening to us here at the moment, and IT'S NOT THE FAULT OF THE EC, BUT OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!

 

All understood in your first paragraph and accepted of course.

I just see myself as a British subject as you do and I am still proud enough of our own country to want it to remain independent and able to make its own laws and to maintain our traditional way of life and thinking for that matter.

Yes I agree with you about the way things have gone in recent years, but whose fault was that? It is always down to those running the country and we were poorly placed for all those years with the last lot who managed to fool the people with their artificial methods of making the economy look good and buying votes while the economy was really going down the tubes. Self seeking was at the root of all that.

I have faith that we can get back to having a good economy again and an honest government which will work for the people and the country instead of putting their own careers first. We have been very unlucky with the calibre of politician we have had for some time now but I believe that the people will understand that and will attempt to vote in decent MP's again. At least we can still vote the bad ones out which is a lot better than we could do with the powerhouse which is running the Eu now. As far as the Euro Parliament is concerned, we can only vote for 10% of its members. Not much chance of democracy there is there?

Throwing our lot in with the Eu would mean a complete loss of democracy, no way that we could influence their decisions, and we would have to live our lives exactly as we were told. Their economic performance speaks for itself of course! We could look forward to a very different,and far less satisfying way of life if we lost our independance.

I think I have covered most of the points raised by those who commented, and the one who was so derogatory may one day realise how wrong he is when he matures later in life. He should realise of course that those of us who are incomers will always be regarded as Grockles in Devon, but that never affects how we all get on as good friends nevertheless.

Les

 

Looks like they need us more than we need them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16177674

 

Is that what David vetoed? If so, good on him!

 

Yeah, I see where you are coming from Les, but where I'd have to disagree is that firstly, we DO make our own laws, nearly 3000 a year in the whole of the Labour reign.

Secondly, Euro laws: WE are the only country that enforces every one as far as it can. Why?

The others ignore stuff that doesn't suit them, so why can't we?

Why DOES our government insist on p*ssing off the UK population by enforcing stupid EC laws, then hold up their hands in horror, and shout, "Not us! Not us! WE didn't do it, it was that nasty EC..." every time anyone complains.

Anyone else see an ulterior motive here? Because I do

 

Well whatever Cameron said or did last week it has made little difference. The pound is sliding with the Euro and the markets are plummeting so no change from last week really!