arumdevil

If you read my other posts you'll see I didn't mean to suggest winter tyres are not needed on a subaru. The intention of my last post was to emphasise to euan_r that cheap M&S tyres are no match for proper winter tyres, but that this fact is easier to miss on a subaru since you have more tech in your favour when it comes to getting moving on slippery ground than any 2wd car.

As you rightly point out, that's not going to help you one little bit (actually it does help you a little bit IF you have LSDs, but not a significant amount) when it's time to stop on that slippery ground, but the winter tyres will.

SiPie

Fair enough

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

Sorry but thats not entirely correct arumdevil.

A skid is always possible in snow and ice no matter what tyres and diffs are fitted, this being sensible thread i think everyone thats posted thus far realises this and you drive accordingly. Satisfaction being getting to your destination.

Only turbo subarus have lsd rear diffs, the rears on na models are open. Front diffs on both na and turbo are also usually open as well. There are exceptions of course.

Not all models of subarus have have limiting abs fitted either, and yes i have plenty of experience driving both with winter and all season, still a limitation in my mind.

Summer tyres are of no use what so ever with silly v shape tread, might as well be slicks.

Have you tried cheap m+s? they are not what your trying to make out. I have decent winters on my type r as i still like a blast in normal winter conditions so am in the position to compare.

The fozzy is still best in deep stuff.

arumdevil

What exactly did I say that's not entirely correct? (I'm not saying that I DIDN'T say something that's not entirely correct, it's just that I said quite a lot since your last post so I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. I'm always open to being corrected, or clarifying what I meant if it wasn't clear enough...).

I never said a skid won't be possible on winter tyres - of course it is. Likelyhood reduced but not eliminated by any means. (In fact it's the threshold that's reduced).

I know it's (mostly) the turbos that have LSD at the back, but (almost?) all subarus have a LSD centre diff.

I agree that silly summer tyres are useless in winter conditions. My only point was that you will still get movement to at least two wheels (3 if you also have a rear LSD, and all 4 if you're lucky enough to have one at the front too!). It may not be very useful movement if you're tyres are brittle and treadless, but there will be movement, as opposed to all power going to the first wheel to lose grip.

As for cheap M&S - I admit there will be some variation depending on brand and model, but the presence of a M&S marking alone does not indicate suitability in winter weather. The ONLY requirement for the M&S marking is a certain % of open tread in the pattern, whereas the mountain/snowflake symbol that appears on proper winter tyres can only be sown if the tyre has passed tests that show it has a significant advantage of traction in winter conditions - which means also that the compound used is softer to allow for the colder temperatures, and there is usually siping in the tread blocks which helps further.

Some M&S tyres such as those that are true all-season tyres will perform reasonably well in winter, but others will barely be better than summer 'slicks'.

I'm not trying to diminish from your experiences, which I don't doubt at all, merely trying to point out that people shouldn't assume that "M&S" on the sidewall is enough to make a tyre good in snow/ice/cold.

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

Sorry im not good at communicating and my posts take longer to compose. My reply was formulated whilst sipie was replying to thread. My reply was about cheap m+s braking being substandard. You went on about subaru lsd which i had to correct, very few models have. Yes centres are but thats not same as lsd all round.

Winters are great at braking, but if anybody reading this thats humming and haing about getting winter set then i can honestly say very cheap m+s do an excellent job.

Ive also used m+s made with walnut shells, made for canadian market i believe. Very good in ice but omfg avoid standing water. So yes not everything marketed as m+s is suitable, but lets not condem the cheap options.

arumdevil

no worries, just wanted to understand what you meant.

As for rear LSD, it might be true that most imprezas don't have them except the turbos, but it's not entirely correct that very few subaru models have them. All turbo subaru's have them (as far as I know), outbacks have them, foresters have them, and all the performance legacys that don't have turbos but are otherwise similar to the turbo models have them (eg the 3.0 litre spec Bs etc). None of the entry-level models have them tough.

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

No worries arumdevil, its easy to get in to arguement on here but i didnt for one second think that was your inclinasion. Ive been on an other subaru forum where some one want to appear special and claim re05's were "safe but twitchy" in the snow, obviously my blood boiled as its not what registered users read but thoose that arent and then think ohh, said tyre must be good...they want hanging imho.

So as ive re entered into discussion on snow/ice covered roads lets get a few other myths disppersed.

Low ratio handle/ box makes a difference. Well not really. Only time its viable is steep decents allowing you to limit speed up as you ride with it. Changing up as nessesary.

Engine braking provides an advantage, what a load of rubbish, just as easy to lock wheels as braking.

Tractors are invincible and will easily pull you out, no. Big wide wheels so even with full diff locks etc. They have their limitations and ive had to get shovel out due to ground clearence quite a few times.

Im only mid 30s so still have a huge amount to learn but given location and job i probably get a tad more experience than most uk scoobynetters. Im no expert and have crashed more than my fair share of the mark.

SiPie

Now that is truly worrying

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

Ok, your one of thoose that like to pick up on spelling mistakes. Duly noted.

Tidgy

i can work from home and shop is in wlaking distance for essentials

also is it bad to hope to work from home cos the net connection is better? lol

SiPie

Not at all mate, just the thought of invisible tractors made me smile

arumdevil

I agree, and I don't come on here saying things to try to feel special or more knowledgeable than others, but like you I don't like when people get facts wrong, or offer their opinions as facts (especially if the facts are wrong or flawed).

Things are not always as simple as they seem though:


yes agreed.
I must disagree with that. It certainly is true that if you change down a gear suddenly on snow you are likely to lock-up the wheels (at least relative to the road speed), but if it's done smoothly the effect of engine braking is the same as your first point above, only not as pronounced as if using lower ratios.

I'm not making assumptions here, I've done both: I once changed from 3rd to 1st (on winter tyres) on a snowy/icy road in an attempt to slow gradually, and the wheels locked up and I skidded towards the hedge momentarily (until I pushed the clutch in).

After that I always made sure only to change down one gear at a time in such situations, and if you carefully match the revs as you downshift (which I have had to do for the last year anyway due to dodgy synchros on my gearbox) the change is so smooth it isn't a problem, and then you do get a benefit from engine braking, especially with winter tyres on. It has it's limits of course, but it does help, and it's a much better way to control your speed especially on a downward slope than using the brakes.

As with any aspect of driving in snow, the key is gradual, steady input instead of sudden actions.

so true. Another one a lot of people seem to fall for is that a big 4x4 means no trouble in snow - what bollocks! I've been seeking out snowy driving conditions for the last 4 winters (I just love it, am I mad?). A couple of years back I was on dartmoor, as high as I could get (only the 6-foot+ snowdrifts stopped the subaru on winter tyres),



and after going for a walk and returning to my car there was a ditsy couple in a shogun, stuck in a ditch. Their exact words were 'we never thought we could get stuck with a 4x4'.



Well bugger me backwards. The tires on that thing had about 2-3mm of tread and they were cheapy crap road tyres. No chance. What's worse is although the thing was in 4wd mode, they hadn't locked the diffs and when I asked if they had I was met with a blank stare.

the same winter a woman in a big SUV came inching past me at the bottom of the 1-in-4 or so hill outside my house. She rolled down the window and suggested I don't bother as even she had trouble with sliding all over the road on her way down the hill, even in her big fat 4x4. Well duh, it's bloody heavy and the 4wd isn't going to help on the way down!

I just pootled up the hill and went on my way. no problem.

There were also some tractors up with the 6' drifts, they did manage to plow some of the roads pretty well. The citroen in that pic had snowchains.



anyway, I for one am looking forward to a ****-load of snow this winter. finger's crossed.



bring it on!

euan_r

iTrader: (29)

I like the snow too, i shouldnt really as it increases work load and costs.

Ive too have had to re depress clutch wrt to engine braking thats where i was comming from. Theres no replacement for experience and mistakes are going to be part of that.

Ive also tried that applying preload on brakes as diy diff lock but didnt find it usefull. Ive done it a lot on greasy mud with 2wd digger and it fairly helps in that situation.

Some should just be banned though. I once came across delivery driver stuck on a single track road i was trying to use. Very light snow but it had been with us for a while and was polished underneath. I got his van going after getting in to driver seat and rocking it out, his judicial use of throttle was not working for some reason. Any way we got him going and proceeded up to a farm. Me and my old man working away for a few hours when said character re appeared on foot. It took a minute to say what needed to be said and my old man went of with him to lend a hand. About 10 minutes later my dad reappeared in hysterics shouting at top of his voice "what a f idiot". The delivery driver had gotten stuck, left it in gear with engine running, gotten out and walked off to find help.

Dave1980

tempted to get some but they are so expensive. got some decent snow chains which have got me out the s@it before so will stick with them for the moment on the saab.

my old scooby was ok in the snow when i had it. nearly got seriously stuck a few years ago in wales near Aberdare took 5 hours to get back to Bristol and the A470 was really deep in snow.

Can see the benefits of winter tyres both in snow and just colder weather.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Ironically, it seems to be a good time to buy summer tyres; I just bought a pair of Michelin PS3 summer tyres for just £90 each! They are usually £140+!!

arumdevil

yes prices, that's another story

Tyres are always cheaper out of season, so get your summer tyres now, and your winter tyres in the spring (if there are any left).

I remember last winter, checking prices in october for the (winter) tyres I had bought 3 years before, and the price was the same (around £87 each). A week later there was a cold snap and the price shot up over £100. Another week and they were at £140. I think they ended up over £200 each, for the same tyre!!! that was on mytyres.co.uk I found a better deal elsewhere.

TelBoy

I am. You need to learn your/you're, dude, the rest of your posts are well written.

Leslie

I have to admit that my M535i was pretty awful on snow especially when it came to going up steep hills. The back wheels had very little grip going up a hill. I had to go the long way round to be able to get to the house in order to avoid a hill in the way. As long as there were no hills in the way I could cope alright.

Les

Leslie

Must be somewhat annoying to know that there is always some nobber or other hanging around waiting for a chance to justify his existence by picking you up on any mistake or typo!

Les

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

But do you really want the hassle of stopping in a sh1tty place to try and fit snow chains in the freezing cold for the sake of a set of winter tyres?

What most people seem to neglect is that while you have winter tires fitted to steel wheels on your car you are saving your nice shiny alloys from salt corrosion and tire wear.

arumdevil

He's already stated that he has some kind of trouble posting and it takes him longer to type replies - possibly dyslexia, give the man a break.

I've made a few errors in my posts (though I usually read afterwards and correct any that I see, which is more than can be said for most people), so if you really feel the need to nitpick, feel free to point my mistakes out.

TelBoy

Your/you're isn't nitpicking, the words mean completely different things.

Frosticles

iTrader: (1)

Mine will be finally going on again tomorrow. This was last year when I took the kids swimming. The only other cars that could get around were those horrid 4x4's. I had no problems at all



Had them on my old STI in 2010. Again, I was one of the only vehicles still pootling around in our village after the big snowfall.

SiPie

Les

I was making a joke about the invisible tractor and you should know me better than that by know

Strongly suggest you re word your post or take it back

Si

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

Guess i should get the van wheels swapped soon.

TelBoy

By know

fpan

iTrader: (11)

I am after a set of summer tyres as well, where did you buy them from?

arumdevil

I know that, but some people legitimately struggle to get around that. I agree with you, people should learn it and I do find it annoying when it's there instead of their, or they're etc, but if someone is dyslexic or has other difficulties and has said so then telling them to do better isn't really going to change things.

Anyway, my challenge to nitpick my posts is open and welcome. That's not because I think they're always perfect, but because I keep catching myself writing 'breaking' instead of braking, amongst other things, and it pisses me off. If I've done something like that unknowingly I want to know so I can be aware and hopefully avoid it next time

arumdevil

buy now? bye now?

Leslie

It wasn't actually aimed at you-just coincidental.

Les