ptholt

I think you'll find we had some naval battles with the portugeese if my addled brain remembers correctly....

I'm talking nelson times etc, not exactly rexent history, but seeing as i cant remember what i had for lunch yesterday, what hope have i got remembering history lessons lol.

[Edited by ptholt - 4/25/2002 12:40:16 PM]

BarryK

No we didn't, you addled brain eejit.

Chris T

Barry is correct - brits help portugal reestablish independence in th 18th century - to give the spainish sommat else to think about instead of fighting the british.

However - we have fought a land war in portugal against napoleon
and we did have a Naval stand off with them over one of their colonies (which we wanted)

Anyway - how did we get onto portugal !

The point is - Britain helped establish Israel - so to say we are against Isreal is just plain wrong. we are equally opposed to the palestinian terrorists

But the sad truth is - the has been so many tragedies - I cannot see a way out of this for anyone.

munna

I am confused...Can we not just live in peace?..I know that we cannot do that in parts of the world..but surely in the UK and especially on Scoobynet?..I am a muslim..i have never been taught by my parents to hate another race or religion(Apart from my sister!!But thats another story!!)

we cannot solve the problem..We may never solve the problem..but we can over come it by trying to teach the people around us about intergration..Come on..if Microsoft can do it(sort of!!) so can we.

we the most intelligent life forms on planet earth...who in 100 years has spanned the farthest reaches of this mortal coil..grew wings and have flown..been to the stars(The moon!!but that will do!!)
yet we have an in-built chip in our heads...(Some of us)which dictates that the life that we have is for blood shed...and blood shed only!!

Sorry..
'i can never see peace in the middle east'(Tupac Shakur..R.I.P)

Geezer

I know this may well cause some consternation, but exactly why do we have to have an Israel at all?

It ssems that it was created more out of guilt than necessity. We don't have a Christian or Muslim state do we?

If I were the Palestinians, I would be pretty p1ssed off that some imperial power had not only taken over the land that I lived in , but then when they pulled out, gave to some people with a pretty weak claim to it who then oppressed them for the next 50 years!

I'm not condoning suicide bombings or terror activity of any sort, but the Israelis have continually ingnored them and oppressed them. If you ignore my cries, eventually I will be forced to take action to make you notice.

The same thing has happened to the US.

Give the Palestinians their land back. Judaism is a religion, not a right to land!

Geezer

carl

Originally posted by Geezer:What do you call Pakistan then? Although it's more complicated than this, essentially they got all of the Muslims in India, stuck them in one bit of it (putting the Hindus in the other bit) then declared it a separate country in 1947. Did the same with Bangladesh (which was called 'East Pakistan' until some time in the 1970s IIRC).

neilb

ummm, hate to interrupt the debate here....

but people are dying on a daily basis (from both sides). This is the most important factor here, surely.

Escalating the problem obviously doesn't work (and dwelling on the past is of no benefit). How can it be stopped?

elondan

NOT TRUE!!
Israel was almost empty of people, the only places where you had people living you had both Jews and Arabs (there were always Jews in Israel/Palestine!!)
now since it wasn't working, and more Jews started coming from abroad ( and bought lands from locals) the U.N decided there should be a solution and splitted the land in half.
Arabs living in our half could have stayed, and some did (we have Israeli arabs with rughts and everything) others opted to bond with the Arab countries (who promised them all the Jewish land) to attack us, they lost, and I don't intend on giving them gifts for fighting me!!

How can you push anyone if you're not in control?? why didn't we push them to Syria??
we got bigger cause we occupied lands during wars, we already proved we preffer peace over land and gave back Sinai to Egypt, and evecuated all our settlers!!

and surely you can back this up...
we capture only terrorists not innocent people!
if so then give back the folklands (too far from England to be yours according to what you say.
pack up all the OZs and Newzealanders you dropped in Aboriginies and Mauries lands...
call back all the Englishmen in U.S and Canada...
I don't think you're right, the Arabs chose to fight us in order to win our lands and guess what they lost their's!!

Who said you are? Britain is one of the countries siding with Israel on this!
You didn't crate anything, only signed the "O.K" on it!
Jews lived in Israel/Palestine for ages, and even in 1948 all the lands we sat on was ours, either bought or ours since ever!!








[Edited by elondan - 4/25/2002 9:43:12 AM]

elondan

You mean Al Qaida, right?
well they also tried to hit France and England.. when did you oppress the stinking rich Bin Laden?
you just don't get it do you? its all about "the west is Evil" "Muslims should rule the world" (all you Muslims, I'm not saying you say it, but those extremists like the Taliban)...
also in Israel, most of the terror started with the peace talks, and intensified after Barak offered them a state!
you know why,?
because they don't really want peace with Israel, they want us eliminated, same with Syria, why didn't they follow Egypt, and gave us peace in return for the Golan heights???

munna

sorry but no body did the same with Pakistan and Bangladesh!..both countries fought for independence..

they were not plumped on either side of india and split up like fighting children at a party!!

Please get your facts right!!

PS I cannot remember who posted the reply!!but you know who you are

Sorty losing site of the conversation again!!

[Edited by munna - 4/25/2002 9:59:08 AM]

elondan

WTF do you think Israel did??
we already had a state, only thing you and the UN did was to approve!!
and in 1948 we had our Independence war...
http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/ink/israel/fisrael1948.htm

Geezer

The reason that Al Qaida targeted the US, UK France, is that they have consistently supported Israel in whatever they do. In their eyes (I'm not agreeing with them) we are as bad as you.

It's as stupid as Bush saying "if you're not with us you're against us". It just isn't that simple, but there it is.

You cannot win against these people, like we could not defeat the IRA or the US could not defeat the Vietnamese.

You are doomed to failure and continuous terror activity by following this course of action, just as the US are. You really need to look at how you co-exist with these people.

Geezer

Alpine

I neither know enough, or very sadly, care enough about this situation. When I was young and idealistic I used to think that you could change peoples' opinions by reason and debate. As I've got older I've realised you can make two people watch the same event and one says Black and the other White. Sharon and Arafat prove this point emphatically.

There will ALWAYS be bloodshed in this world. Take away religion, colour, land, and man will find something else to fight his fellow man about. It makes me sick to the bottom of my stomach and is totally wrong. Everyone knows it's wrong. But knowing this hasn't changed it for thousands of years and my guess is it won't change it for the next few thousand..

I know ppl will read this and say 'if we don't try, nothing will change' my answer to you is good luck and I really do mean that. But, do you really think you're the first person to say that in the last thousand years? And what has changed?

Chris T

elondan

Are you a troll in disguise ? Your initial post - starts on the theme that the british started something that israel is merely continuing. eg killing arab/palestinian population.

You have defended israel actions - including saying that the UN monitoring team has been invited - I see know that that invitation has been withdrawn.

You are engaged in a full defence of the isreali state ? why ?
I am not disagreeing with Isreals right to a homeland. But my point is this
In the UK we coexsist (pretty well 99%) of the time with Muslims, catholics, jews, Irish Nationalists, sikhs, Moonies, Missionaries, fundamentalists of many different types and races.

The British population rarely feel threatened by this.

In Isreal you see yourselves as surronded by threats and consequently lash out at every percieved slight. Fair enuff - but in jenin israel went to far - and have perpertrated a massacre every bit as bad as any ethnic cleansing - instead of defending you right to exsist perhaps you should be asking your leaders how the could have let this happen.

The worst mistake the British made in Northern Ireland was interrment - that was a disaster as a policy.
But that happened after several high profile bombings - similar situation don't you think ?

elondan

You're wrong it all started when Barak was in power and two of our soldiers where lynched in Ramalla, and then Barak frustrated with Arafat and his terror ways hit back!!
Its not Sharon, Its Arafat who is in power through Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu, Barak and Sharon.
and guess what no matter what PM we elect (left or right) no matter how much we offer...we get terror.
during Peres's time in 1996 we had a really bad week with 3 suicide bombings,
during Netanyahu, we had coffee shops blown up in Tel aviv even though he just gave back Hebron,
during Barak, who offered a Palestinian state, on 97% of the land including east Jerusalem!! and he got terror in return.
So how exactly is it Sharon's fault?
the only thing that hasn't changed is Arafat...do the math.

Why troll. I'm an Israeli (it says so in my profile), I didn't say we are doing the same as the Brits but stated what you did to show how hard it is to fight terror.

So?? in Israel (not the occupied territories) we have 20% non Jews living as citizens, christians, muslims, druzes, bedueins... living 99% of the time peacefully.
and you can't even start comparing the tension that was caused by the wars between us and our neighbours.

you're not really updated are you?
it started with the Palestinians saying we killed thousands, than it dropped to hundreds and now it looks like only 200 (of which 95%) where armed men!!
listen to what Powell says, or even you newspapers.

Alpine

well done elondan.. at least you prove my point emphatically.

elondan

Alpine,
there is no arguing there is two sides to every story,
and I truly beleive we are right, never mind the mistakes we did, are doing..
I know I'll never be able to convince any of you...
but to say that I'm the only one here to prove your point... well its a bit unfair.

munna

Elondan:- do you own a scoob?(Subaru Impreza Turbo)

if yes then you will probably realise that this is an environment for like minded people who share one common interest.....SUBARU'S

sorry to be blunt

but I think that there is no difference between you and people like you,,,and the fundamentalists out there...all you want is something..and you will want it at any cost!!..be that the life of youre own or the life of others...until you reach the nirvana that you do search in vain!

Chris T

Once again elondan you read the text but miss the point - this is my last post on this subject.

Yes Israel hs a racial mixture - my point is - it is not reconciled with it-there have been restrictions on the palestinians work and housing etc - the church at bethleham is a microcosm of the society - three or four religion and races failing to co exsist in harmony.

ONLY 200 - well thats alright then !!!! proof that there is none so blind as them that will not see.

The market place at srebnica was the scene of about 60 deaths and that has led to charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. I wish they Israelis would offer charges against Sharon - for this and many other atrocities. It is not the first time he has he sent the troops in for this purpose.

I am not getting at you personally and if a member of the palestinian sucide squad had posted I probably would have made a similar argument against violence and for negotiation.

The fact is - those that were once dispossed now have a homeland - those that are dispossed want a home land - some of the hypocrisy has really staggerred me.

Good luck with the road to peace.

elondan

Aren't you guys arrogant...
Oh but there is a big difference, I'll never go and intentially kill innocent people!
I took the peaceful ways (I never voted for Sharon) and for that some people hold me responsible for the bloodshed in Israel, cause we trusted them gave them most of the land back and we gave them weapons (isn't that twisted) and got tons of innocent peiople killed!!
I want to see how you react when 60 people (kids and women) in one week while sitting for a holiday dinner or for a coffee...all that after you did your best to offer peace...

wrong!! you miss the point... there are Israeli arabs who where willing to accept Israeli citizenship in 1948... and Palestinians who aren't Israelis at all, and can't have rights like Israelis!!

ONLY 200 Vs. thousands claimed, and ONLY 200 armed men not innocent people...don't try to make me a mass murderer cause I'm not, but if someone holds a gun and aim at me I'm not gonna apologize for killing him.

Wrong again, he never sent in troops, and he was put on trial and removed from the minister of defence office, but for failing in preventing a messecer that took place in Lebanon where we ruled between christian Lebanese and Muslims, not IDF soldiers!!

I resent the comparison!!!
try and learn more about the two sides and you'll understand the difference, or better still ask Clinton the difference!!!!

[Edited by elondan - 4/25/2002 4:44:45 PM]

Diesel

Guys you are really pushing Elondan into a corner here, his arguments and historic facts seem lucid to me. He obviously has a higher tolerance for the valid/unvalid reaction punishment and restrictions that the Palestinians are currently suffering. I can understand that, especially if I was father who had his 10 year old blown up in a coffee shop.

If the Palestinians refused an offer of 97% of their land claim, in exchange for peace, then to have a go at the Israelis for being mean and not offering 100% back seems absurd to me. Compromise is a two way street, and any compromise is surely better than the current quality of life there...

D

scottywrx

One thing I have noticed in the UK is that the News reporting is very Pro-Palestinian !

I hear news from Israel,Arab States & UK and would expect the UK media to promote a fair/unbaised viewpoint on the conflict ..

They DO NOT IMH which is why so many from the UK have voiced such opinions ...

I have seen & met radicals on both sides of the conflict in Israel and the unbiased media only stokes the anger and resentment further ...

Scott





[Edited by scottywrx - 4/25/2002 8:19:57 PM]

AllanB

I think many people are shocked that a people who have undergone years of persecution are now doing the persecuting.

I don't know all of the facts and am not confident in any countries media to give facts wihout bias. The only thing I'm sure of is very few people know exactly whats going on . Even the people there.


AllanB

true06

i still dont understand how this is palestinian land... in wars land changes hands, in the israeli/arab wars, israel won them all, and won land in the process... now the palestinians are crying because they lost their land, when in reality it was their own damned fault for attacking israel in the first place. note: i am not educated on these wars, but i do know that that land has been disputed since the days of the bible, so i think this goes deeper than the israeli's moving in after ww2. but i do understand what its like to be a person, and countries are very similar to people, on a large scale.... the israelis have our (america's) support, does that automatically make them bad in the eyes of the world? "hey man america is "better" than us so lets hate them" (note: better in quotes meaning i am not trying to say america is better im just saying what.... nevermind you get the idea). all of this siding with the arabs is just so rediculous to me... they continually suicide bomb and then specifically say "death to israel" and "we dont want peace"... but what, you dont believe them? are they lying? is that what you think>? it seems as though you are trying so hard to make israel and america look bad, but im sorry to say, we just arent... as far as this conflict is concerned anyway. israel has 100% right to defend it self, if that means military action, so be it, if that means killing terrorists, so be it, if that means civilians getting caught in the crossfire, well this is part of war.. people die in war, civilian deaths are unecesary and "bad", but i can guarantee you that the majority of israelis, including the government, do not set out daily to slaughter palestinian civilians the way the PLO does to israelis, and i can guarntee you that if the palestinians wanted peace, we would not be descussing this now.. the palestinians dont want peace... isnt this clear to you yet? actually, maybe alot of palestinians do want peace, but they need to make their voice heard, and i dont mean saying "death to israel, give us our land back and we wont kill you" i mean actually wanting peace, to live as friends.

true06

the problem is is that today people forget to think... they watch the news and hear one story of a palestinian child who lost their mother and automatically say "oh my god, israel is satan" forgetting all together to think, once you think you realize, and ... a lot of people seem to let everyone think for them, but if you sit down and think you will realize that their are israeli children that have too lost mothers in this conflict. the point is people need to think more... i have done a lot of thinking on this matter, coming into it with no favorite, i have seen and heard many many stories and i listen to both sides. and looking at the whole picture i realize that israel is in the right and the palestinians are in the wrong. the palestinians, and pretty much all the arab countries (saudi arabia especially) have lost all credibility to me, this is just their way to get the jews, they dont care about the land or peace, they just hate jewish people. if you think you can make peace with people who hate you... you my friend, have a lot to learn...

this is not to say that there are not palestinians who do want peace, but weve all seen what extremes the palestinians are willing to goto to get what they want, so judging from that one can conclude that they dont want peace that badly otherwise they would be speaking up against the militants.



[Edited by true06 - 4/26/2002 5:21:17 AM]

Diesel

>>I think many people are shocked that a people who have undergone years of persecution are now doing the persecuting<<

I too thought this initially - there's a feeling of 'you should know better'. However think a little further and it becomes obvious the hard line is because the logic is 'never again will we be treated like that, this time we will make sure we can react and protect ourselves...never again'