SUSPENDED FROM WORK
13 April 2011, 08:19 PM
#62
Scooby Regular
If she takes union in with her they can speak on her behalf, adding to the defense. If she stole the crisps then i would go in with letter of her handing in her notice. If she leaves (resigns) it will look at lot better than being fired. It is though the companies choice if they wish to accept or speed the hearing along and fire her. Most companies will cut their losses and let her resign. Just in case she stole them, not saying she did!
Certainly they will have her jumping through hula hoops and she maybe salt n shaking in her boots before they tell her watsits going to be.
Certainly they will have her jumping through hula hoops and she maybe salt n shaking in her boots before they tell her watsits going to be.
14 April 2011, 10:32 AM
#63
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: west yorks
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all replies, even the funny ones. Quick update. Letter arrived yesterday, got to go for disciplinary tomorrow at 9 o clock. The letter states that she can have a work colleague with her as she's not in a union. It also states she is under suspicion of theft, dishonesty, fraud and embezzlement. She has been in tears and is very upset by the allegations. My wife and myself have known Annette for several years and this does not seem like the same person they are talking about. Sad situation.
14 April 2011, 10:47 AM
#64
Can she prove she didn't steal the crisps? Seems mad to me that she would risk her job for a packet of crisps, especially as she made no atempt to hide her consumption of them.
I'm not sure how these investigations go, but I would think they would have to be able to absolutely prove she stole them, not just think she did. Has she actually said what happened?
I'm not sure how these investigations go, but I would think they would have to be able to absolutely prove she stole them, not just think she did. Has she actually said what happened?
14 April 2011, 11:43 AM
#66
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: west yorks
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've asked her to tell me exactly what happened. She says she had no money on her person and her purse was in the staff room. She ate the crisps and put the empty packet into her pocket. She finished her shift, went to get her purse and coat out of staff room and did some shopping before leaving the store. She found the empty packet still in her pocket when she got home. She paid for them as soon as she got into work the next day. It was this day she got suspended. It was just a lapse of memory, but a very expensive one by the look of things.
14 April 2011, 11:53 AM
#67
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pot Belly HQ
Posts: 16,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've dealt with many shop lifters and if that is the case, I'd be arguing that it is not theft -
A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.
Hence, her intention was not to permanently deprive the shop of the crisps, she intended on paying for them, but forgot. In paying for them at the next available opportunity, she showed that the intention was to buy them.
A person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.
Hence, her intention was not to permanently deprive the shop of the crisps, she intended on paying for them, but forgot. In paying for them at the next available opportunity, she showed that the intention was to buy them.
14 April 2011, 12:20 PM
#68
It's a difficult one.
If she has a good record, they may let her off with a warning, giving her the benefit of the doubt. However, if they are sending out a message, or are looking at this another way, they could argue that she only paid as she was frightened she might have been caught out and thought it would 'look better' if she paid up.
I can see both sides, and assuming she is being genuine (which I think she probably is) hopefully they may show some leniency. What I imagine they will argue is if she had no money to make pay for them at the time she took them, whether the intention to pay later was there or not, she shouldn't have taken them. I think all she can do is appeal to their better nature and apologise for making a daft mistake.
My company take staff theft more seriously than that of customers, however, a few years back a collegue made a similar error and lived to work another day.
If she has a good record, they may let her off with a warning, giving her the benefit of the doubt. However, if they are sending out a message, or are looking at this another way, they could argue that she only paid as she was frightened she might have been caught out and thought it would 'look better' if she paid up.
I can see both sides, and assuming she is being genuine (which I think she probably is) hopefully they may show some leniency. What I imagine they will argue is if she had no money to make pay for them at the time she took them, whether the intention to pay later was there or not, she shouldn't have taken them. I think all she can do is appeal to their better nature and apologise for making a daft mistake.
My company take staff theft more seriously than that of customers, however, a few years back a collegue made a similar error and lived to work another day.
14 April 2011, 03:46 PM
#72
Scooby Regular
She will get fired imho, if i read what you said correctly she took the crisps from the shelf, ate them on the floor then paid for them the next day??
Thats theft i'm affraid.
Thats theft i'm affraid.
14 April 2011, 04:30 PM
#73
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: If you're not braking or accelerating you're wasting time.
Posts: 2,684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
14 April 2011, 04:52 PM
#75
Scoobywon't is legally correct and if your friend is telling the truth then in law no "theft" has taken place.
It's how car theives get away with it, they are charged with TWOC and not theft as they have no intention of permanently depriving the owner of his car...
Having goods on display is an "offer to chaffer" and the contract of sale was completed when she paid for the crisps so there was no fraud, embezzlement or even any breach of the contract of the sale of the crisps.
What a strange way of dealing with it ?
Shaun
It's how car theives get away with it, they are charged with TWOC and not theft as they have no intention of permanently depriving the owner of his car...
Having goods on display is an "offer to chaffer" and the contract of sale was completed when she paid for the crisps so there was no fraud, embezzlement or even any breach of the contract of the sale of the crisps.
What a strange way of dealing with it ?
Shaun
14 April 2011, 05:06 PM
#76
SN Fairy Godmother
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Far Far Away
Posts: 35,246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One packet of crisps, a slip of the mind, all so easily done. Sounds like the store is run by a right bunch of nuggets
Tell her to have a word with CAB.
14 April 2011, 05:09 PM
#77
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A typical shoplifting scenario has a shoplifter being stopped or arrested as soon as they cross the threshold with their goods. In the UK it seems to be unacceptable to then offer to pay for the goods at that point as the transgression is deemed to have been executed.
Whilst technically correct I am not sure that 'borrowing' an item will stand up in court.
Whilst technically correct I am not sure that 'borrowing' an item will stand up in court.
14 April 2011, 05:12 PM
#78
SN Fairy Godmother
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Far Far Away
Posts: 35,246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A typical shoplifting scenario has a shoplifter being stopped or arrested as soon as they cross the threshold with their goods. In the UK it seems to be unacceptable to then offer to pay for the goods at that point as the transgression is deemed to have been executed.
Whilst technically correct I am not sure that 'borrowing' an item will stand up in court.
Whilst technically correct I am not sure that 'borrowing' an item will stand up in court.
14 April 2011, 05:14 PM
#79
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pleiades
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had a huge problem with staff theft (the staff were literally stealing more than the customers) and I could not tell you how many said it was the first time they had done it and/ or they were just about to pay for whatever it was they had taken.
It's sad for your friend if she is one of the genuine ones though and I'm not surprised she is upset. If I was her I wouldn't want to work there any longer anyway.
It's sad for your friend if she is one of the genuine ones though and I'm not surprised she is upset. If I was her I wouldn't want to work there any longer anyway.
14 April 2011, 05:19 PM
#80
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pleiades
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong BTW but our store rules were very clear cut and people still did it.
14 April 2011, 05:20 PM
#81
SN Fairy Godmother
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Far Far Away
Posts: 35,246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had a huge problem with staff theft (the staff were literally stealing more than the customers) and I could not tell you how many said it was the first time they had done it and/ or they were just about to pay for whatever it was they had taken.
It's sad for your friend if she is one of the genuine ones though and I'm not surprised she is upset. If I was her I wouldn't want to work there any longer anyway.
It's sad for your friend if she is one of the genuine ones though and I'm not surprised she is upset. If I was her I wouldn't want to work there any longer anyway.
I had a cleaning lady, who whilst dusting, put my earrings, which I had left on my desk ( I often take them out at work, as they get in the way when on the phone), into her pocket. She forgot all about them. She came back in the afternoon and was nearly in tears.
I knew for a fact she would not have done it, intentionally.
14 April 2011, 05:22 PM
#82
BANNED
My girlfriend once worked in a shop/cafe. If the staff wanted to take something, they'd just take something to the till and just get a receipt and pay before the end of the week, no problem. Surely if the woman did pay before being suspended, what's the problem? What did the shop lose?
On a lighter note. I'd put her suspension down to the credit 'crunch'.
On a lighter note. I'd put her suspension down to the credit 'crunch'.
14 April 2011, 05:23 PM
#83
LOL at this thread
A man goes to the doctors
"What's the problem?" asks the doctor.
"Well" says the guy, its my **** doctor it's orange!!"
"I better have a look" says the doctor.
There it was bright orange, "blimey I've never seen anything like it" says the doctor.
"What kind of work do you do," asks the doctor.
"I don't work," replies the guy.
"What no work of any kind," asks the doctor.
"No nothing," replies the guy.
"What do you do all day," asks the doctor.
"I sit a home watching **** and eating Wotsits."
A man goes to the doctors
"What's the problem?" asks the doctor.
"Well" says the guy, its my **** doctor it's orange!!"
"I better have a look" says the doctor.
There it was bright orange, "blimey I've never seen anything like it" says the doctor.
"What kind of work do you do," asks the doctor.
"I don't work," replies the guy.
"What no work of any kind," asks the doctor.
"No nothing," replies the guy.
"What do you do all day," asks the doctor.
"I sit a home watching **** and eating Wotsits."
14 April 2011, 05:26 PM
#84
BANNED
Oh, and situations like this has been going on for years. My mate worked at iceland and took a 30p bottle of cherryade, he drank it before paying for it and some one told the manager. He got the boot, even though he had the receipt to show them. lol
14 April 2011, 05:51 PM
#86
which one does she work in? get someone polite but confident to call them asap and tell the store you are from the SUN or one of the other popular people papers, and ask them for a statement regarding the suspension of a member of staff for eating a bag of crisps on the job... im not 100% but im sure they wouldnt like that sort of publicity.
14 April 2011, 05:56 PM
#87
Trout
It will stand up in court. What happens if you fill your car with petrol and then realise you have left your wallet at home. Could you be convicted for theft...........nope, because you had the intention of paying for your petrol.
If a "shoplifter" claims to be on medication that makes them forgetful and they leave the shop without paying then it is not beyond reasonable doubt that they had the intention to permanently deprive the shop owner of the goods......no conviction.
The law on theft depends on the Mens Rea (guilty mind) princpal that Scoobywon't mentioned above.
It may well be in her Terms and Conditions of employment that she shouldn't have done it but that's an employment contractual matter and not an indictable offence like theft.
Shaun
It will stand up in court. What happens if you fill your car with petrol and then realise you have left your wallet at home. Could you be convicted for theft...........nope, because you had the intention of paying for your petrol.
If a "shoplifter" claims to be on medication that makes them forgetful and they leave the shop without paying then it is not beyond reasonable doubt that they had the intention to permanently deprive the shop owner of the goods......no conviction.
The law on theft depends on the Mens Rea (guilty mind) princpal that Scoobywon't mentioned above.
It may well be in her Terms and Conditions of employment that she shouldn't have done it but that's an employment contractual matter and not an indictable offence like theft.
Shaun
14 April 2011, 06:00 PM
#88
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pleiades
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's where good management comes into it. Body language goes a long way in spotting the guilty
I had a cleaning lady, who whilst dusting, put my earrings, which I had left on my desk ( I often take them out at work, as they get in the way when on the phone), into her pocket. She forgot all about them. She came back in the afternoon and was nearly in tears.
I knew for a fact she would not have done it, intentionally.
I had a cleaning lady, who whilst dusting, put my earrings, which I had left on my desk ( I often take them out at work, as they get in the way when on the phone), into her pocket. She forgot all about them. She came back in the afternoon and was nearly in tears.
I knew for a fact she would not have done it, intentionally.
With shoplifters you can definitely tell the professionals from the genuine customer who has just forgotten to pay.
With the staff the thing was no one thought they were guilty, it was almost like a perk of the job! So when they were quizzed about it they would say 'But I wasn't stealing, it was just a pack of sweets', they looked innocent because in their eyes they were IYKWIM.
The really guilty ones were the lads who were getting their mates to drive up to the loading bay....or the overnight shift who were getting rid of the evidence (all the empty bottles and wrappers hid in the suspended ceiling in the staff-room)....or the checkout women stuffing cash in their bras. We had managers sacked for theft too even after they had sacked other members of staff
14 April 2011, 06:06 PM
#89
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pot Belly HQ
Posts: 16,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is down to the company's theft policy if they will always prosecute. If they do not have a policy that states they will prosecute every theft, then the store manager can use his discretion to take payment for the property if he so chooses. If the attending officer is also happy for it to be dealt with that way, then no arrest will be made and no crime recorded. This does happen as manager's can be too busy to give a statement and will just issue a banning order to the individual.
14 April 2011, 06:09 PM
#90
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pot Belly HQ
Posts: 16,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With shoplifters you can definitely tell the professionals from the genuine customer who has just forgotten to pay.
With the staff the thing was no one thought they were guilty, it was almost like a perk of the job! So when they were quizzed about it they would say 'But I wasn't stealing, it was just a pack of sweets', they looked innocent because in their eyes they were IYKWIM.
The really guilty ones were the lads who were getting their mates to drive up to the loading bay....or the overnight shift who were getting rid of the evidence (all the empty bottles and wrappers hid in the suspended ceiling in the staff-room)....or the checkout women stuffing cash in their bras. We had managers sacked for theft too even after they had sacked other members of staff
With the staff the thing was no one thought they were guilty, it was almost like a perk of the job! So when they were quizzed about it they would say 'But I wasn't stealing, it was just a pack of sweets', they looked innocent because in their eyes they were IYKWIM.
The really guilty ones were the lads who were getting their mates to drive up to the loading bay....or the overnight shift who were getting rid of the evidence (all the empty bottles and wrappers hid in the suspended ceiling in the staff-room)....or the checkout women stuffing cash in their bras. We had managers sacked for theft too even after they had sacked other members of staff
Funnily enough she got away with it (despite it not being the first time) and the arresting officer suddenly started getting shafted...