does my timing look out?
18 January 2011, 03:28 PM
#32
Yes, the crank needs to be set at TDC. You'll see this once the alternator pulley and plastic cover is removed. The marker line on the crank position reluctor (behind the timing belt pulley) points to a line stamped on the engine block.
Have you done a cambelt change before? If this a first time I strongly advise to get someone who has done one before on a multi-cam engine to help.
Workshop manuals here: https://www.scoobynet.com/technical-...d-updated.html
Have you done a cambelt change before? If this a first time I strongly advise to get someone who has done one before on a multi-cam engine to help.
Workshop manuals here: https://www.scoobynet.com/technical-...d-updated.html
18 January 2011, 03:34 PM
#33
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Yes, the crank needs to be set at TDC. You'll see this once the alternator pulley and plastic cover is removed. The marker line on the crank position reluctor (behind the timing belt pulley) points to a line stamped on the engine block.
Have you done a cambelt change before? If this a first time I strongly advise to get someone who has done one before on a multi-cam engine to help.
Workshop manuals here: https://www.scoobynet.com/technical-...d-updated.html
Have you done a cambelt change before? If this a first time I strongly advise to get someone who has done one before on a multi-cam engine to help.
Workshop manuals here: https://www.scoobynet.com/technical-...d-updated.html
Cambelts are my least favourite job, no margin for error and the potential to cause £££'s worth of damage.
18 January 2011, 03:51 PM
#35
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But aslong as my timing marks are spot on, and i dont go rotating the right hand side, cam and exhaust pulleys the wrong way i cant really go wrong? If the cam and exh pulley move when i release the tension on the belt are the valves going to be damaged?
18 January 2011, 04:08 PM
#37
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18 January 2011, 07:58 PM
#38
Mine is a genuine item.
I take you mean 'wouldn't'.
This 'half a tooth' business. WTF is 'half a tooth'? That would mean the pulleys/belt would sit 'peak on peak' (not possible), not peak in trough as they do.
When i fitted the belt it was impossible to match all the marks spot on. IMO if the inlet is spot on 12 o'clock and the exhaust is spot on 3 o'clock, and the at least 1 of each of the double alignment marks line up then that is correct.
I take you mean 'wouldn't'.
This 'half a tooth' business. WTF is 'half a tooth'? That would mean the pulleys/belt would sit 'peak on peak' (not possible), not peak in trough as they do.
When i fitted the belt it was impossible to match all the marks spot on. IMO if the inlet is spot on 12 o'clock and the exhaust is spot on 3 o'clock, and the at least 1 of each of the double alignment marks line up then that is correct.
I usually go by the lines on the belt into the marks on the pulleys & tbh I've yet to see even one pulley not line up mark for mark But I suppose there is allways a first time for everything lol
As for the half tooth buisness I suppose you've not seen the yellow lines on the belt printed in the wrong places then, Because I sure have, Dont say it doesnt happen because it does.
Since I work for a Subaru dealer all I get is Genuine gear to play with
Just had a few cases where back street garages have been fitting cheapo belts then the customer complains the engine rocks about on Idle & we've found the timing out a few degress on the cams 
18 January 2011, 08:24 PM
#39
Yeah I mean wouldnt, damn keyboard
I usually go by the lines on the belt into the marks on the pulleys & tbh I've yet to see even one pulley not line up mark for mark But I suppose there is allways a first time for everything lol
As for the half tooth buisness I suppose you've not seen the yellow lines on the belt printed in the wrong places then, Because I sure have, Dont say it doesnt happen because it does.
Since I work for a Subaru dealer all I get is Genuine gear to play with Just had a few cases where back street garages have been fitting cheapo belts then the customer complains the engine rocks about on Idle & we've found the timing out a few degress on the cams
I usually go by the lines on the belt into the marks on the pulleys & tbh I've yet to see even one pulley not line up mark for mark But I suppose there is allways a first time for everything lol
As for the half tooth buisness I suppose you've not seen the yellow lines on the belt printed in the wrong places then, Because I sure have, Dont say it doesnt happen because it does.
Since I work for a Subaru dealer all I get is Genuine gear to play with
Just had a few cases where back street garages have been fitting cheapo belts then the customer complains the engine rocks about on Idle & we've found the timing out a few degress on the cams
18 January 2011, 09:00 PM
#40
Yeah I mean wouldnt, damn keyboard
I usually go by the lines on the belt into the marks on the pulleys & tbh I've yet to see even one pulley not line up mark for mark But I suppose there is allways a first time for everything lol
As for the half tooth buisness I suppose you've not seen the yellow lines on the belt printed in the wrong places then, Because I sure have, Dont say it doesnt happen because it does.
Since I work for a Subaru dealer all I get is Genuine gear to play with Just had a few cases where back street garages have been fitting cheapo belts then the customer complains the engine rocks about on Idle & we've found the timing out a few degress on the cams
I usually go by the lines on the belt into the marks on the pulleys & tbh I've yet to see even one pulley not line up mark for mark But I suppose there is allways a first time for everything lol
As for the half tooth buisness I suppose you've not seen the yellow lines on the belt printed in the wrong places then, Because I sure have, Dont say it doesnt happen because it does.
Since I work for a Subaru dealer all I get is Genuine gear to play with
Just had a few cases where back street garages have been fitting cheapo belts then the customer complains the engine rocks about on Idle & we've found the timing out a few degress on the cams Just can't get my head around 'half a tooth'. Surely it's a full tooth??
Or is the actual teeth on the belt that are incorrect by half a tooth, hence you have to go one full tooth back or forwards on the pulley???
Yeah think the penny has just dropped.
What do you lads at Subaru use to lock the pulleys then?? As the only things i can find are all in the USA! The one i posted above and this one.
19 January 2011, 12:10 AM
#43
This is the tool Matt. £30 from the states, i may invest in one. And here it is in action.
Might be ok on metal pulleys, but would need some care taken on the plastic/composite pulleys some EJ20s have fitted: They are very brittle. (Subaru dealer managed to take a chunk out one of mine somehow, well I assume it was the dealer, seeing the car was FSSH when I purchased it).
19 January 2011, 12:21 AM
#45
This is the tool Matt. £30 from the states, i may invest in one. And here it is in action.
Not saying that doesn't happen Rob, and in your job you certainly would know.
Just can't get my head around 'half a tooth'. Surely it's a full tooth??
Or is the actual teeth on the belt that are incorrect by half a tooth, hence you have to go one full tooth back or forwards on the pulley???
Yeah think the penny has just dropped.
What do you lads at Subaru use to lock the pulleys then?? As the only things i can find are all in the USA! The one i posted above and this one.
Not saying that doesn't happen Rob, and in your job you certainly would know.
Just can't get my head around 'half a tooth'. Surely it's a full tooth??
Or is the actual teeth on the belt that are incorrect by half a tooth, hence you have to go one full tooth back or forwards on the pulley???
Yeah think the penny has just dropped.
What do you lads at Subaru use to lock the pulleys then?? As the only things i can find are all in the USA! The one i posted above and this one.
I'll take some pics of our tools tomorrow, On the inlet cam pulley you unbolt the tin plate and one end hooks in there with 3 lugs on it and then theres a larger section which locates onto the exhaust cam pulley with a piece of plate in the middle linking them together, we only lock the rh side cams as the lh can move easy enough and arnt under spring tension. sorry for the Crap description, but all will come clear with a picture
19 January 2011, 01:29 AM
#46
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from personal experience them marks do not always line up between the pulleys its the five markings that line up with the covers that matter the most an the white line on the belt, (if its having one)
but it can be a bit tricky to judge just by taking one cover off, pull them all off an line the crank up :-)
but i didn't read all the other threads above just yours, you most properly already been told this, keep us informed
but it can be a bit tricky to judge just by taking one cover off, pull them all off an line the crank up :-)
but i didn't read all the other threads above just yours, you most properly already been told this, keep us informed
19 January 2011, 09:10 AM
#47
I thought exactly the same ALi when i watched it too!!Might be ok on metal pulleys, but would need some care taken on the plastic/composite pulleys some EJ20s have fitted: They are very brittle. (Subaru dealer managed to take a chunk out one of mine somehow, well I assume it was the dealer, seeing the car was FSSH when I purchased it).
To be honest, we've not looked in depth at the spurious belts enough to see if its a tooth alignment issue or a marking issue that causes it, More a case of take it off and fit the proper one check it over and let the customer have it back lol.
I'll take some pics of our tools tomorrow, On the inlet cam pulley you unbolt the tin plate and one end hooks in there with 3 lugs on it and then theres a larger section which locates onto the exhaust cam pulley with a piece of plate in the middle linking them together, we only lock the rh side cams as the lh can move easy enough and arnt under spring tension. sorry for the Crap description, but all will come clear with a picture
I'll take some pics of our tools tomorrow, On the inlet cam pulley you unbolt the tin plate and one end hooks in there with 3 lugs on it and then theres a larger section which locates onto the exhaust cam pulley with a piece of plate in the middle linking them together, we only lock the rh side cams as the lh can move easy enough and arnt under spring tension. sorry for the Crap description, but all will come clear with a picture
19 January 2011, 11:24 AM
#48
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Right, Im starting to wish i had left the car well alone. I have got the crank pulley off, and the cover...
To begin with, the timing is out a lot more than i expected. If i line up the centre pulley, the left pulley is out 2 teeth, aswell as the right pulley. God knows how the car was even running...
But the worst thing i saw was the keyway, it is totally ****ed. The crank pulley (alt pulley) is knackared and the woodruff key is also knackared. I am now assuming that the actual crank itself will also be knackared...
The movement is that bad, that the alternator/crank pulley has actually started to cut away at the rear cover...
Im going to start another thread with some pictures.
To begin with, the timing is out a lot more than i expected. If i line up the centre pulley, the left pulley is out 2 teeth, aswell as the right pulley. God knows how the car was even running...
But the worst thing i saw was the keyway, it is totally ****ed. The crank pulley (alt pulley) is knackared and the woodruff key is also knackared. I am now assuming that the actual crank itself will also be knackared...
The movement is that bad, that the alternator/crank pulley has actually started to cut away at the rear cover...
Im going to start another thread with some pictures.
Last edited by musso2010; 19 January 2011 at 11:25 AM.
19 January 2011, 12:05 PM
#50
Right, Im starting to wish i had left the car well alone. I have got the crank pulley off, and the cover...
To begin with, the timing is out a lot more than i expected. If i line up the centre pulley, the left pulley is out 2 teeth, aswell as the right pulley. God knows how the car was even running...
But the worst thing i saw was the keyway, it is totally ****ed. The crank pulley (alt pulley) is knackared and the woodruff key is also knackared. I am now assuming that the actual crank itself will also be knackared...
The movement is that bad, that the alternator/crank pulley has actually started to cut away at the rear cover...
Im going to start another thread with some pictures.
To begin with, the timing is out a lot more than i expected. If i line up the centre pulley, the left pulley is out 2 teeth, aswell as the right pulley. God knows how the car was even running...
But the worst thing i saw was the keyway, it is totally ****ed. The crank pulley (alt pulley) is knackared and the woodruff key is also knackared. I am now assuming that the actual crank itself will also be knackared...
The movement is that bad, that the alternator/crank pulley has actually started to cut away at the rear cover...
Im going to start another thread with some pictures.
Sounds like the worst case scenario. I've heard of it but never experienced it first hand. I can't think that there is an easy, quick or cheap option. You really need to speak with a professional, David at API or Alan Jeffery for example. Just so they can let you know which direction to go and save you wasting any more time and money.
19 January 2011, 12:59 PM
#51
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I know Steve. Part of me wants to give up now and jump ship.
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...20-engine.html
That ^^ is axactly what has happened to mine, and i do happen to know a very good welder. I am a Motorcycle Engineer by trade, and have done a lot of these jobs on motorcycle crankshaft keyways (obviously off the bike).
I might give welding a go, ive got nothing to loose now anyway...
Quick question for you though, When i time the marks up, the keyway is at the bottom. I need it at the top, so how am i going to do it? Shall i just turn it untill its at the top and release the tension on the belt? Im assuming if i do this the valves will clash???
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...20-engine.html
That ^^ is axactly what has happened to mine, and i do happen to know a very good welder. I am a Motorcycle Engineer by trade, and have done a lot of these jobs on motorcycle crankshaft keyways (obviously off the bike).
I might give welding a go, ive got nothing to loose now anyway...
Quick question for you though, When i time the marks up, the keyway is at the bottom. I need it at the top, so how am i going to do it? Shall i just turn it untill its at the top and release the tension on the belt? Im assuming if i do this the valves will clash???
19 January 2011, 01:18 PM
#52
Thats bad news, it is the worst case scienario
Well its either repair it or a new crank.
Weld it as above or some sort of liquid metal compund (loctite 660, JB weld etc) - or maybe both. I've got some Loctite quickmetal on the shelf, but only ever used to repair worn spindle bushes on carburettors.
Well its either repair it or a new crank.
Weld it as above or some sort of liquid metal compund (loctite 660, JB weld etc) - or maybe both. I've got some Loctite quickmetal on the shelf, but only ever used to repair worn spindle bushes on carburettors.
19 January 2011, 01:36 PM
#53
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Im gunna get the timing pulley off, and check the damage to the actual crank. At least i now know why my car hasnt performed the way it should.
19 January 2011, 02:44 PM
#54
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Been doing some research on the US subaru boards, and acording to them this is quite a common problem. They also mention that the key and the keyway are not under any pressure once the crank/alt pulley bolt is tightened the the required torque. Personally i cant see how that can be true, so im going to do a bit more research before i decide what i am going to do.
19 January 2011, 07:57 PM
#56
this it the most common tool we use, Legacy and Impreza, larger end hooks nicely on the inside groves of the pulley & the top smaller collar hooks inside the Variable inlet cam after the tin cap has been removed. Got some pics of some classic impreza tools kicking around somewhere but they are very similar
19 January 2011, 08:37 PM
#57
this it the most common tool we use, Legacy and Impreza, larger end hooks nicely on the inside groves of the pulley & the top smaller collar hooks inside the Variable inlet cam after the tin cap has been removed. Got some pics of some classic impreza tools kicking around somewhere but they are very similar
I would be even more interested in the Classic tool, i'm thinking of knocking some thing up myself so any ideas/pics will be very useful. Also any info on what the 'real thing' would cost (should they be available to the public
) would also be very helpful too.
19 January 2011, 08:59 PM
#58
Thats anything from bugeye up to hawkeye including legacy too.
No tool for the hatch duel vvt yet which is a right PITA lol
I'll take another shot of the classic tool as these ones are just a blurry mess lol.
I'll see if Our parts guy will give me a price on the tools.
No tool for the hatch duel vvt yet which is a right PITA lol
I'll take another shot of the classic tool as these ones are just a blurry mess lol.
I'll see if Our parts guy will give me a price on the tools.
I take it it's all his fault anyway for taking you out in his the other night.