I didn't say they were not entitled just pointing out that there is a movement with 'imperialist' like ambitions.

There has been unrest and disillusionment since the Ottoman empire went into decline etc.

Yes the euro powers were 'interfering' in the near and middle east in the late colonial period, but what was the alternative? Some local 'utopia'?! The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, the locals didn't even want it, the Arabs rebelled against Ottoman rule (the Caliphate!) helped by the British. Into that collapsing vacuum of Ottoman power you need some hegemony, some stability to provide security etc or you can anarchy, dark ages, economic collapse...the British fulfilled that role....it is entirely reasonable from a realistic POV.

You paint this as a narrative of 'the west' vs/oppressing 'Islam' - as the Islamists and their lefty apologists like to do - is to ignore history and the FACTS. It's absurd reductionism and propaganda for simpletons.

Nobody removed democratic governments in Iraq, but I would agree that the US's role in Iran was unjust but we don't live in a utopia and to extrapolate that episode to characterise the whole of recent history is dishonest at best.

By and large - with the exception of the US in Iran - the middle east - certainly the Arab world - has been free to forge its own destiny post WW2 though. You have a pattern of de-colonization and granting of independence etc. How long can you keep on blaming 'the west' for contemporary Arab problems?

I was talking about Islamists not all muslims.

What do you mean 'turned against'? 'Refused to bow down'?

A posture?

We backed Saddam as a counter-weight to Iran. Maybe it seems distasteful but again what was the alternative?

Ultimately Saddam took a gamble with Kuwait and it failed. You can see it as some 'courageous' stand against Western oppression if you want? I just see it as a failed political/economic gambit.

 

Is it not the same narrow minded mentality?

 

No. The simile isn't a good one I'm afraid.

 

Give it a rest, mate. You are arguing simply by questioning every statement I make, which is what women do.

If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.

I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.

 

Ah.......so they DON'T refer to us as "the infidel"?

And have you any idea what the q'ran says about, "the infidel"?

 

I think you might need to check your facts there guy.

 

Again thanks fer the questions

 

Yeah,I dunt trust the or-thor-i-tiz either.When peeps start questioning them,maybe society will be a better place!
Spell cheker were ar yu??

 

Who do YOU think THEY are???

I think THEY are a TINY,INSIGNIFICANT number of people.......I'm more worried about the massive number of white,non-religious ******* who I work with and live at the back of my housing estate.

 

"We are at Defcon 5. Repeat. We are at Defcon 5!"

 

How sad for you.
THEY are the large number of Asians in MY town and many others across the North, North-West and North Midlands of this once proud country.

They DO refer to us as "the infidel", it means "unbeliever" and their q'ran tells them that we are lesser beings.

They WOULD like to see us ALL face down to Mecca twice daily. Their religion INSTRUCTS them to convert infidels.
In a recent poll, 40% of their youth said they would like to see Sharia Law in the UK. That means women as second class citizens, among other things.

They are ALREADY in the majority in Leicester. Several more English cities are slated to go majority Asian in the next five years.

YOU may not see this as a problem.

Best of luck.

 

I wanna get blown up in a classic comedy fashion i.e. nothing left but my smoking pair of boots.

 

So you refer to all ("They") Muslims as terrorists?
I will still say its a tiny minority, AND it is other Muslims who are giving information to the police,you are doing them a disservice and insulting them.

I think you will find that the Bible (Christian Persuasion) Insists on Exactly the same thing (BUT IT IS DOWN TO INTERPRETATION) they (christians) do insist on cutting off the arm of "any women who strikes you". But I ain't worried bout that either. (do you want more extremist christian quotes?).

You will also find in the unwritten word of the average thug to stab you in the head for not handing over your wallet.Let mi see,the chance of dying from a thug on the streets OR the chance of being killed from a terrorist (Muslim or Irish). So where is YOUR check on reality.
As for a majority in Leicester etc,as usual that isn't MY problem thats societies.

 

Nah, they're Muslims... sorry, Islamists so we're actually at Defcon 10

It's the war on Islamists don't you know? No you probably don't because only two people on here actually know about it because they invented it

 

Are you not part of that society then that is your problem.

 

The threat level has only been increased for Airports, Railway Stations etc. It must be the government trying to get us all off public transport and back into our cars

 

Mart.

Are you intimating that the current incumbants of Whitehall etc. would deliberately suggest that there was a high threat to National Safety that would result in the Vox Pop infering a real threat - And therefore divert attention from the issues of National Debt etc?

Shame on you

 

So what terrorist threats have been made up and to what end?

 

I just did and they are right.

Unless you are obtusely referring to Gulf war I? Clearly Gulf war II (the 'occupation') happened after 9/11.

 

Can you please learn to use the quote function properly!?

Capitalism just is, it spreads because it works...it's not really ideologically driven more like it's demanded by economic realities. Nobody invented Capitalism it just came into being out of necessity as as the means of production became mobile and liquid requiring a Capitalist class to manage it (as oppose to an agricultural economy where land is fixed and inherited etc).. To oppose Capitalism is to want to concentrate and use state power as an alternative/defense...a really weak alternative which has been proven to fail over and over. In reality you just get populist elites playing a campaign of lefty rhetoric like in Venezuala running the show. At least Capitalism is open to all and disseminates power unlike state socialism which concentrates power.

The Islamists are otoh ideologically driven.

Sure but you are trying to correlate Islamic disillusionment with 'western interference'.

Western need for oil isn't necessarily against the interests of the middle east people. At least it provides an income and a means to start a modern economy. The Soviets or ***** would have stolen the oil, otoh the 'west' has always been about markets and free trade.

I don't believe they 'put' Saddam in charge but I'm sure they enabled him, but again what is the alternative. To provide economic/political stability to the region the west must back strongmen or have boots on the ground? You don't want the latter right? That would be an 'occupation'. The alternative to having no law and order is no stability and a blood bath/war etc. The middle east would have been in anarchy.

They oppress themselves by trying to opt out of the Capitalist, globalised market. That way lies poverty. Neither isolationism or state socialism work.

Capitalism is the only way.

What benefits the west benefits the Arab world by and large. Free trade benefits all remember. Basis economics. We have a mutual interdependence. What better way to stop conflict!?

Using state power to 'defend' against a 'culture' is a sign that the local culture is weak. Strong culture doesn't need laws to protect it.

Not sure what you mean.

 

You may well be right in some circumstances, but they have demonstrated their ability to foil possible attacks through good intelligence and we have only that to rely on to save us from possible terrorist attack. We are not in a position to ignore the possible threat.

You should remember that I had a great deal to do with the intelligence services in my previous job so it is unfair to infer that I am naive in these matters.

Les

 

Some top quality bollocks contained within this thread also!

 

I'm afraid it's what NSR is fast becoming.

Please mods, can we have a 'Religion only' forum - this is just spoiling what once was a good section of SN.

 

+1

 

Hasn't it always been like this Zip? Just to varying degrees IMO. Why can't people have a sensible debate about stuff, agree to disagree, throw in a bit of banter etc etc.

 

sad acts in my view trying to lead thier lives by a book writen thousands of years ago that bears no relavance to todays modern society abd way of life
a classic example the witnesses not having blood transfusions because the book states (thou shaLT NOT Take blood ) durr you dumb asses he ment drink it not have it put in your arm cos you are dying. stupid the bloody lot of em

 

Does it not strike you as odd that we hear VERY little about what sentences these supposed foiled terrorists ever get? If any?

 

I suppose it depends if they get caught before or after an offence. Also how long it takes to assemble any proof. If there is none then they have to be released. Lot of variables but a possible bad ending.

Les