Panorama tonight BBC
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Ok, I get your frustration, but I genuinely believe that if there was a coherant stance against Islamism from moderates it would be heard. Channel 4 and the Guardian would be beside themselves. 
Your response on the issue of secularism is slightly obscure, Asif. Do you subscribe to the notion of seperation of church/mosque and state? Conversely, and as an example, ideologically would you elect to live within a theocracy over a secular democracy? This is the one question that I seem unable to have answered.
Your response on the issue of secularism is slightly obscure, Asif. Do you subscribe to the notion of seperation of church/mosque and state? Conversely, and as an example, ideologically would you elect to live within a theocracy over a secular democracy? This is the one question that I seem unable to have answered.
I don't think that ordinary Muslims can be blamed 100% for not speaking up. Who is listening? The media in this country generally do not seem to like listening to ordinary, law abiding citizens, otherwise Sky news could travel about a two minute drive from their base and come and see me.
But I suspect that they would rather travel to the end of the Earth to go and film some nutcase shouting, "Kill white people!" or "Kill Christians!" What is their obsession with nut cases? Nut cases are 0.0001% of the population but get 100% of the media coverage. Why is this??
The insult on top of injury is that all the while these nut cases are purported to be 'representatives of the community' or some bollox like that. It's ridiculous!
To answer your question, Muslims are not concerned by Secularists or Atheists, except how they attack the Church. Muslims respect other peoples' religions and beliefs, it is anti Islamic to do anything else.
Asif
But I suspect that they would rather travel to the end of the Earth to go and film some nutcase shouting, "Kill white people!" or "Kill Christians!" What is their obsession with nut cases? Nut cases are 0.0001% of the population but get 100% of the media coverage. Why is this??
The insult on top of injury is that all the while these nut cases are purported to be 'representatives of the community' or some bollox like that. It's ridiculous!
To answer your question, Muslims are not concerned by Secularists or Atheists, except how they attack the Church. Muslims respect other peoples' religions and beliefs, it is anti Islamic to do anything else.
Asif
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Did Christians around the world feel attacked when the UK went to war with Argentina over the Falklands?
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Eloquent anti-semitism is still anti-semitism, and it is never intelligent.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; Nov 24, 2010 at 12:01 AM.
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You see secularism as an attack on the church? I'm worried. It's actually the only system which guarantees true freedom of religion.
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Anyone who dares to criticise Israel is so obviously anti Semitic, as you say? Next you'll be rolling out the Holocaust.
Do you even know what anti Semitism means? If someone was Ashkenazy presumably I could insult them all day long without fear of being accused of anti Semitism?
As far as I am concerned, anti Semitism, is a white, European, Christian invention, (After all the Jews did murder Jesus let's not forget that!) practised over millenia, and 'perfected' in 1940's Germany.
This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Muslims. Only the ignorant would think it was, or those with another agenda.
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Iraq is not exclusively muslim, and even if it was, why would a British person of Pakistani origin living in say Bradford feel they are attacked if the US invades Iraq? They are not from Iraq.
Did Christians around the world feel attacked when the UK went to war with Argentina over the Falklands?
Did Christians around the world feel attacked when the UK went to war with Argentina over the Falklands?
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the majority of the jews went against jesus only a small tribe amongst the jews stuck by him and tryed to support him (hawirien) i think is the name of the tribe. i have a lot of clients in stamford hill jewish orthdox area and to be honest im yet to see anything bad from them they are very religous very honest and they totaly against zionism.
for some of you that dont know london have a drive through stamford hill maybe tony can tell us a bit more about the area. how they have there own schools own hospitals own police. and they are not aloud tvs radio or any contact with the out side world. and to be honest i currently live with 3 minutes walk from there however it doesnt affect me the slightest as i dont see them as a threat. tony for some reason you seem to visulise us muslims as a major threat to you?
for some of you that dont know london have a drive through stamford hill maybe tony can tell us a bit more about the area. how they have there own schools own hospitals own police. and they are not aloud tvs radio or any contact with the out side world. and to be honest i currently live with 3 minutes walk from there however it doesnt affect me the slightest as i dont see them as a threat. tony for some reason you seem to visulise us muslims as a major threat to you?
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Iraq is not exclusively muslim, and even if it was, why would a British person of Pakistani origin living in say Bradford feel they are attacked if the US invades Iraq? They are not from Iraq.
Did Christians around the world feel attacked when the UK went to war with Argentina over the Falklands?
Did Christians around the world feel attacked when the UK went to war with Argentina over the Falklands?
A central aspect of Islam is the idea of equality and Brotherhood, but I think you know this already - that is why Muslims are bothered by attacks from outside. Did you not know this already, someone as clever as you?
No idea what Christians thought about it and I don't care. Christians have been killing each other and non Christian others by the tens of millions for thousands of years now. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other for hundreds of years, in significant quantities. Perhaps they are past caring and prefer to fight each other over land and resources? Who knows?
What follows is taken from ''The Rise of Jihadist Extremeism in the West'' available from Salafibookstore.com
Many radical groups do not recognise their own extremism and regard accusations of extremism to be un-Islamic, wrongly believing that Muslims cannot be divided into moderates and extermists. There is some deliberate deception at play here; take for example the statement propounded by the extremist group, hizb ut tahrir:
'' We as responsible and aware members of the Muslim community must not let these labels of 'moderate' and 'extremist' create divisions in Islaam.'' (1)
The reality, however, is that there are Muslims who are extreme, and there are those who are negligent in acting upon religious duties; and then there are those Muslims who are between the two, upon a balanced orthodoxy, taking their example in religion from the early pious generations known in Arabic as the Salaf (2), not falling short nor going beyond bounds. The Messenger (peace & blessings be upon him) stated:
''Beware of extremism in religion, for that which destroyed those who came before was extremism in the religion.''(3)
In another narration he cautioned the Muslims emphatically by stating:
''The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed.''(4)
So the statement of hizb ut thahrir that 'there are no such divisions in Islaam' is in clear contradiction to reality........................
footnotes
(1)Source; Moderate or Extemist-Plans to divide the Muslim community, 1924.org; accesses in 2003, and the website is no longer accesible, though the URL has been recorded by the author.
(2)I refer the reader th The Book of Forty Hadeeth Regarding the Madhab of the Salaf by Shaikh Ali al-Haddadii, available from Salafibookstore.com
(3)Reported bt An-Nasaa'i, no.3059
(4)Reported by Muslim, no.2670
Me again,
An excellent book containg a 'who's who in the World of Extremism, refuting with evidence the likes of; Sayyid Qutb, Taqi ud-din nabahani(hizb ut tahrir), Abdullah Faisal, Abu Hamzah al misri(hook), Abu Qataadah, Usaamah bin Laden, Anwar al-Awalaki............
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Do you even know what anti Semitism means? If someone was Ashkenazy presumably I could insult them all day long without fear of being accused of anti Semitism?
As far as I am concerned, anti Semitism, is a white, European, Christian invention, (After all the Jews did murder Jesus let's not forget that!) practised over millenia, and 'perfected' in 1940's Germany.
This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Muslims. Only the ignorant would think it was, or those with another agenda.
As far as I am concerned, anti Semitism, is a white, European, Christian invention, (After all the Jews did murder Jesus let's not forget that!) practised over millenia, and 'perfected' in 1940's Germany.
This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Muslims. Only the ignorant would think it was, or those with another agenda.
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Do you really think George Bush knows the difference, or cares? Bushs own NSA chappie reported Bush as saying, on September 12th 2001, "blah blah blah, and we are going to get Saddam too." I don't make these things up you know?
A central aspect of Islam is the idea of equality and Brotherhood, but I think you know this already - that is why Muslims are bothered by attacks from outside. Did you not know this already, someone as clever as you?
No idea what Christians thought about it and I don't care. Christians have been killing each other and non Christian others by the tens of millions for thousands of years now. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other for hundreds of years, in significant quantities. Perhaps they are past caring and prefer to fight each other over land and resources? Who knows?
A central aspect of Islam is the idea of equality and Brotherhood, but I think you know this already - that is why Muslims are bothered by attacks from outside. Did you not know this already, someone as clever as you?
No idea what Christians thought about it and I don't care. Christians have been killing each other and non Christian others by the tens of millions for thousands of years now. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other for hundreds of years, in significant quantities. Perhaps they are past caring and prefer to fight each other over land and resources? Who knows?
Why are Arab states still keeping 'brother Muslims' locked up in Palestinian refugees camps some for half a century?
Is a Muslim life worth more than a non Muslim?
Were was the outrage when Arab milities were killing Christians in Sudan?
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Ok, I get your frustration, but I genuinely believe that if there was a coherant stance against Islamism from moderates it would be heard. Channel 4 and the Guardian would be beside themselves.
Your response on the issue of secularism is slightly obscure, Asif. Do you subscribe to the notion of seperation of church/mosque and state? Conversely, and as an example, ideologically would you elect to live within a theocracy over a secular democracy? This is the one question that I seem unable to have answered.
Your response on the issue of secularism is slightly obscure, Asif. Do you subscribe to the notion of seperation of church/mosque and state? Conversely, and as an example, ideologically would you elect to live within a theocracy over a secular democracy? This is the one question that I seem unable to have answered.
Any chance of some guidance on this, Asif?
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the word extremeism means (tashdod) in arabic which means some one who is extremley religous thats to my arabic understanding. anwar al awlaki i have listened to many of his lectures about the stories of the prophets about heaven and hell and paradise. im yet to hear anything which declares any war on anyone. the rest to be honest i cant comment on as im yet to hear any full lectures on them.
abbas where did you get those narrations from were they from bukhari,muslim taramzi? the reason is for my own understanding. its always good to learn something new.
abbas where did you get those narrations from were they from bukhari,muslim taramzi? the reason is for my own understanding. its always good to learn something new.
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Now stop nit picking at me and say something meaningful yourself, for once.
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We've had our differences, and perhaps I've been misguided in my discussions with you. I have to say the text below makes perfect sense.
A very dangerous & incorrect statement.
What follows is taken from ''The Rise of Jihadist Extremeism in the West'' available from Salafibookstore.com
Many radical groups do not recognise their own extremism and regard accusations of extremism to be un-Islamic, wrongly believing that Muslims cannot be divided into moderates and extermists. There is some deliberate deception at play here; take for example the statement propounded by the extremist group, hizb ut tahrir:
'' We as responsible and aware members of the Muslim community must not let these labels of 'moderate' and 'extremist' create divisions in Islaam.'' (1)
The reality, however, is that there are Muslims who are extreme, and there are those who are negligent in acting upon religious duties; and then there are those Muslims who are between the two, upon a balanced orthodoxy, taking their example in religion from the early pious generations known in Arabic as the Salaf (2), not falling short nor going beyond bounds. The Messenger (peace & blessings be upon him) stated:
''Beware of extremism in religion, for that which destroyed those who came before was extremism in the religion.''(3)
In another narration he cautioned the Muslims emphatically by stating:
''The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed.''(4)
So the statement of hizb ut thahrir that 'there are no such divisions in Islaam' is in clear contradiction to reality........................
footnotes
(1)Source; Moderate or Extemist-Plans to divide the Muslim community, 1924.org; accesses in 2003, and the website is no longer accesible, though the URL has been recorded by the author.
(2)I refer the reader th The Book of Forty Hadeeth Regarding the Madhab of the Salaf by Shaikh Ali al-Haddadii, available from Salafibookstore.com
(3)Reported bt An-Nasaa'i, no.3059
(4)Reported by Muslim, no.2670
Me again,
An excellent book containg a 'who's who in the World of Extremism, refuting with evidence the likes of; Sayyid Qutb, Taqi ud-din nabahani(hizb ut tahrir), Abdullah Faisal, Abu Hamzah al misri(hook), Abu Qataadah, Usaamah bin Laden, Anwar al-Awalaki............
What follows is taken from ''The Rise of Jihadist Extremeism in the West'' available from Salafibookstore.com
Many radical groups do not recognise their own extremism and regard accusations of extremism to be un-Islamic, wrongly believing that Muslims cannot be divided into moderates and extermists. There is some deliberate deception at play here; take for example the statement propounded by the extremist group, hizb ut tahrir:
'' We as responsible and aware members of the Muslim community must not let these labels of 'moderate' and 'extremist' create divisions in Islaam.'' (1)
The reality, however, is that there are Muslims who are extreme, and there are those who are negligent in acting upon religious duties; and then there are those Muslims who are between the two, upon a balanced orthodoxy, taking their example in religion from the early pious generations known in Arabic as the Salaf (2), not falling short nor going beyond bounds. The Messenger (peace & blessings be upon him) stated:
''Beware of extremism in religion, for that which destroyed those who came before was extremism in the religion.''(3)
In another narration he cautioned the Muslims emphatically by stating:
''The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed. The extremists are destroyed.''(4)
So the statement of hizb ut thahrir that 'there are no such divisions in Islaam' is in clear contradiction to reality........................
footnotes
(1)Source; Moderate or Extemist-Plans to divide the Muslim community, 1924.org; accesses in 2003, and the website is no longer accesible, though the URL has been recorded by the author.
(2)I refer the reader th The Book of Forty Hadeeth Regarding the Madhab of the Salaf by Shaikh Ali al-Haddadii, available from Salafibookstore.com
(3)Reported bt An-Nasaa'i, no.3059
(4)Reported by Muslim, no.2670
Me again,
An excellent book containg a 'who's who in the World of Extremism, refuting with evidence the likes of; Sayyid Qutb, Taqi ud-din nabahani(hizb ut tahrir), Abdullah Faisal, Abu Hamzah al misri(hook), Abu Qataadah, Usaamah bin Laden, Anwar al-Awalaki............
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James,
I am not a practising Muslim, so I am happy to live in the UK. Religion should be a personal matter and not controlled by the State.
However, Islam, as I understand it, is intended to be a complete way of life. Therefore the State, as well as individuals, the economy, society as a whole should be governed by religious law.
It should have the advantage of everyone knows the score and what they should or should not be doing. However, that is not for me.
But having spent my whole life here, perhaps that is why.
Does this answer your question?
Asif
I am not a practising Muslim, so I am happy to live in the UK. Religion should be a personal matter and not controlled by the State.
However, Islam, as I understand it, is intended to be a complete way of life. Therefore the State, as well as individuals, the economy, society as a whole should be governed by religious law.
It should have the advantage of everyone knows the score and what they should or should not be doing. However, that is not for me.
But having spent my whole life here, perhaps that is why.
Does this answer your question?
Asif
Last edited by AsifScoob; Nov 24, 2010 at 12:50 AM.
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that wasnt the question i asked why is america always helping isreal tony??? and dont think im taking this as an opportunity to bash jews i just want to hear it from your mouth
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Thanks for the reply. 
To be honest, the more I read the more I believe they should all be gone (any faith). Not because I'm anti-religion, but because I think everyone has the right to their own beliefs but in terms of schooling/education, perhaps it is better in the long run for people to mix and grow as individuals from that interaction.
To be honest, the more I read the more I believe they should all be gone (any faith). Not because I'm anti-religion, but because I think everyone has the right to their own beliefs but in terms of schooling/education, perhaps it is better in the long run for people to mix and grow as individuals from that interaction.
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