Panorama tonight BBC
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I would not ban any faith schools and nor would I be against anyone practising their own chosen religion.
I would not however accept any attempt to undermine our own style of government, our own laws and traditions.
Any attempt at that should be proscribed and if it was going on then steps should be taken to stop that or any other kind of seditious behaviour.
We need leaders who in the first place are anxious to defend our country and its native people. Those who want to live here must be prepared to accept our laws and our way of life.
The PC Plonkers and those politicians who are not man enough to speak up or act to protect this country but prefer to let it happen are doing us all a grave disservice.
Les
I would not however accept any attempt to undermine our own style of government, our own laws and traditions.
Any attempt at that should be proscribed and if it was going on then steps should be taken to stop that or any other kind of seditious behaviour.
We need leaders who in the first place are anxious to defend our country and its native people. Those who want to live here must be prepared to accept our laws and our way of life.
The PC Plonkers and those politicians who are not man enough to speak up or act to protect this country but prefer to let it happen are doing us all a grave disservice.
Les
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Jewish?! 
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...n-hawking.html
My theological position is made fairly clear in this thread.
If I had to give myself a label it would be ignostic. The 'I' isn't a typo.
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...n-hawking.html
My theological position is made fairly clear in this thread.
If I had to give myself a label it would be ignostic. The 'I' isn't a typo.
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From: Disco, Disco!
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From: My turbo blows, air lots of it!!
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Sorry, I thought that the self imposed thought police of Scoobynet that are JTaylor and his sidekick Two Personas said we are no longer allowed to hide behind smilies so decided to not bother with them.... makes my post so much more than it would be otherwise ... would put a roll of the eyes here but y'know how it is on SN these days!
Oh dear.
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From: Sunny BELFAST
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From: Sunny BELFAST
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From: Sunny BELFAST
huh? we killed ourselves, bombed and maimed you lot on the mainland, sucessive governments paid lip service to eradicating the violence but that never materialised. why should we think that this government's, quite frankly, pathetic attempts to quell the extremist muslims will be any different.
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<leans in close and speaks in a whisper>
TdW announced today that he is Jewish. Whether he is or not - it got a few people coming up with suitable gags and images as befits TdW, being the popular lad that he is
some might make more of it than just a bit of fun and others might just see it for what it is - some harmless banter, no-one suggested blowing him up or beheading him at least!
TdW announced today that he is Jewish. Whether he is or not - it got a few people coming up with suitable gags and images as befits TdW, being the popular lad that he is
some might make more of it than just a bit of fun and others might just see it for what it is - some harmless banter, no-one suggested blowing him up or beheading him at least!
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Interesting post.
Interesting thread.
First one I have actually read on SN for ages. I used to contribute heavily to Political/Religious threads on here, but found I had much better things to do than bang my head against a brick wall all day long.
Can't see why moderate Muslims should have to explain the actions of weirdos and murderers. Should ordinary Catholics have to do this as regards the IRA? I have never heard of it.
Most Muslims are culturally 'Socially conservative' (small 'c'), therefore it does not come naturally to them to seek out publicity and try to correct the views of others. What most of them do is to sit quietly in their homes, shaking their heads slowly at what they see around them, from both 'sides' and hope that things will eventually get better.
What is wrong here is that the real issues, those which need to be discussed, are no longer talked about enough. The reason why it seems, in my opinion, is that Muslims are too scared to express themsleves on normal political matters, as that stage seemes to have been stolen by a small group of idiots and these people are the only ones listened to by the media.
The morons burning poppies for instance: any serious point that they might have had is completely ignored by the howls of protest at what they did. Anyone trying to have a discussion on those issues will be immediately tarred by the same brush as them. It's impossible.
If you want to see how to take at least 90% of the wind out of the sails of Al Qaida and so on, around the whole World, then read this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...t-2139101.html
This is where the solution is. All we are doing is to deny the real problems, gloss over doing anything about them, because our politicians are in the pay of the Israeli Lobby in Westminster and try to treat the symptoms only, such as these schools.
It is only going to get worse, a lot worse.
Asif
First one I have actually read on SN for ages. I used to contribute heavily to Political/Religious threads on here, but found I had much better things to do than bang my head against a brick wall all day long.
Can't see why moderate Muslims should have to explain the actions of weirdos and murderers. Should ordinary Catholics have to do this as regards the IRA? I have never heard of it.
Most Muslims are culturally 'Socially conservative' (small 'c'), therefore it does not come naturally to them to seek out publicity and try to correct the views of others. What most of them do is to sit quietly in their homes, shaking their heads slowly at what they see around them, from both 'sides' and hope that things will eventually get better.
What is wrong here is that the real issues, those which need to be discussed, are no longer talked about enough. The reason why it seems, in my opinion, is that Muslims are too scared to express themsleves on normal political matters, as that stage seemes to have been stolen by a small group of idiots and these people are the only ones listened to by the media.
The morons burning poppies for instance: any serious point that they might have had is completely ignored by the howls of protest at what they did. Anyone trying to have a discussion on those issues will be immediately tarred by the same brush as them. It's impossible.
If you want to see how to take at least 90% of the wind out of the sails of Al Qaida and so on, around the whole World, then read this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...t-2139101.html
This is where the solution is. All we are doing is to deny the real problems, gloss over doing anything about them, because our politicians are in the pay of the Israeli Lobby in Westminster and try to treat the symptoms only, such as these schools.
It is only going to get worse, a lot worse.
Asif
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That is not quite true is it. You had the Jewish "Nakba" in the 1940's in response to pogroms and persecution. For example in Libya (from wiki):
There were ~750,000 Jews in Arab land in 1945, now there are ~8,600.
There were ~750,000 Jews in Arab land in 1945, now there are ~8,600.
I am not saying it was right, but they were thrown out of where they lived in response to the forced creation of the state of Israel and the forcible removal of Palestinians from their own homes.
Did that little detail escape you?
Asif
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Yes they are. You are saying it now, just below!
Tell me where they live and I will be there like a shot.
Someone needs to stick up for innocent civilians killed by warfare. MAC claim to, but surely someone with at least one ounce of credibility needs to, don't you think?
What objective plane do you come from then? You sound totally brainwashed. I think you could be Netanyahus PR person.
You asked for an opinion. What's wrong? Does the truth hurt? So, someone who disagrees with you is instantly Anti Semitic? Standard fayre.
If you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Ok here we go. Blaming everything on Israel as if Israel is the really the cause of Islamism! Glad to see you are buying into the extremist propaganda...buying their narrative.
Buying the same old tired anti-semitic demagoguery that a few Jews are especially politically powerful and conspire against everyone else.
Israel didn't create Islamism, it created itself and just USES the Israel-Palestinian conflict (yes that is PALESTINIAN NOT MUSLIM) as a justification/propoganda. Just like the left they are PARASITES on Palestinian suffering and EXPLOIT The conflict, just like your journalism Fisk does. They prolong the conflict and CAUSE suffering on both side, the get off on the drame/theatre of the whole thing as a kind of catharsis, use the imagery like ****.
Can't you see what you are doing, what anti-semitism is? It's a scapegoating. The Arab and Muslim world has been blaming it's problems on Israel for years now. Imagine that, a tiny state with a few million people, somehow oppressing over a billion!
Propaganda is made by hypocrites for idiots.
Buying the same old tired anti-semitic demagoguery that a few Jews are especially politically powerful and conspire against everyone else.
Israel didn't create Islamism, it created itself and just USES the Israel-Palestinian conflict (yes that is PALESTINIAN NOT MUSLIM) as a justification/propoganda. Just like the left they are PARASITES on Palestinian suffering and EXPLOIT The conflict, just like your journalism Fisk does. They prolong the conflict and CAUSE suffering on both side, the get off on the drame/theatre of the whole thing as a kind of catharsis, use the imagery like ****.
Can't you see what you are doing, what anti-semitism is? It's a scapegoating. The Arab and Muslim world has been blaming it's problems on Israel for years now. Imagine that, a tiny state with a few million people, somehow oppressing over a billion!
Propaganda is made by hypocrites for idiots.
You asked for an opinion. What's wrong? Does the truth hurt? So, someone who disagrees with you is instantly Anti Semitic? Standard fayre.
If you don't like it, go somewhere else.
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Do you subscribe to my idea that the group best placed to deal with Islamists are moderate Muslims? My premise is this: if the 'Establishment' overtly tackle the movement, the ground will be made fertile for the recruitment of vulnerable young Muslims who view action as hostile and threatening. If the vast swathes of moderates isolate the Islamists, bridges will be built and the youngsters will be less likely to react negatively to their brethren.
You referenced 'the troubles' earlier. IIRC, some of the most effective peacemakers were 'normal' prodestant and catholic members of that community; authorities were viewed with suspicion and often further polarized the opposing factions.
I appreciate I'm simplifying here, and understand the complexities, but what of the basic notion?
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Then why get on the defensive nobody asked you to explain! But if you are going to take this approach be prepared to accept responsibility for people in your community/culture I wonder how many of the nutters burning Poppy's were banned from their mosques?
Me personally I DO blame the rep of Ireland for harboring murderers and inciting hatred. If my brother were to murder innocents i would feel the need to condemn his actions and apologise for him!
Me personally I DO blame the rep of Ireland for harboring murderers and inciting hatred. If my brother were to murder innocents i would feel the need to condemn his actions and apologise for him!
For me, how can I possibly take responsibility for the actions of other adults? Are people who say this deranged? Do you know what your next door neighbour is doing at any time, inside his house? Do you know what the man down the street, who shares the same ethnicity/religion as you, do you know what he is up to??
I am not responsible for what other people do, they are.
Are you suggesting such people should have a voice after what they did?
If their community (some of which had grandparents fight in the same war
) were that concerned about it are they still allowed in their mosques and who taught them this kind of idiology in the first place?
If their community (some of which had grandparents fight in the same war
) were that concerned about it are they still allowed in their mosques and who taught them this kind of idiology in the first place?This is a little off topic and WILL offend but people need to understand that Israel are the real victims and that Muslims are being spoon fed nonsense across the world even now just as asif has kindly pointed out for us even though he is not aware of it. 
A history lesson in the run up to 1948 war (which Muslim Arab states started).
In the newly internationally determined state Arabs and Jews were to share both military and civil service. Hebrew and Arabic were to have the same legal standing, and “in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice-versa.”
If this was the act of a “militant” faction of the Jewish national movement, mainstream Zionism it took for granted the full equality of the Arab minority in the future Jewish state but went out of its way to foster Arab-Jewish coexistence.
This raised the standard of living of its Arab inhabitants well above that in neighboring Arab states. expansion of Arab industry and agriculture was largely financed by the capital and through Jewish know-how. In Palestine, ordinary Arabs were persecuted and murdered by their alleged betters for the crime of “selling Palestine” to the Jews!
On the day of independence Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel and the Palestinians were asked to leave by the Arab states until it was over. they lost of course but signed a peace treaty between themselves and NOT with Israel.
As far as I'm concerned present day actions by Israel albeit condemned by the UN (not a rarity in the middle east) ARE justified. I personally would do alot worse!
A history lesson in the run up to 1948 war (which Muslim Arab states started).
In the newly internationally determined state Arabs and Jews were to share both military and civil service. Hebrew and Arabic were to have the same legal standing, and “in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice-versa.”
If this was the act of a “militant” faction of the Jewish national movement, mainstream Zionism it took for granted the full equality of the Arab minority in the future Jewish state but went out of its way to foster Arab-Jewish coexistence.
This raised the standard of living of its Arab inhabitants well above that in neighboring Arab states. expansion of Arab industry and agriculture was largely financed by the capital and through Jewish know-how. In Palestine, ordinary Arabs were persecuted and murdered by their alleged betters for the crime of “selling Palestine” to the Jews!
On the day of independence Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel and the Palestinians were asked to leave by the Arab states until it was over. they lost of course but signed a peace treaty between themselves and NOT with Israel.
As far as I'm concerned present day actions by Israel albeit condemned by the UN (not a rarity in the middle east) ARE justified. I personally would do alot worse!
It is nonsense. People are being killed on both sides, anyone who says one is justified above the other is trying to justify murder and to defend the indefensible.
Read my previous threads on the subject for more detail. Do people not wonder why those making decisions in this regard find it easier to kill people than to not kill people as a solution?
People need to be brave and seek a new beginning.
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Evening Asif,
Do you subscribe to my idea that the group best placed to deal with Islamists are moderate Muslims? My premise is this: if the 'Establishment' overtly tackle the movement, the ground will be made fertile for the recruitment of vulnerable young Muslims who view action as hostile and threatening. If the vast swathes of moderates isolate the Islamists, bridges will be built and the youngsters will be less likely to react negatively to their brethren.
You referenced 'the troubles' earlier. IIRC, some of the most effective peacemakers were 'normal' prodestant and catholic members of that community; authorities were viewed with suspicion and often further polarized the opposing factions.
I appreciate I'm simplifying here, and understand the complexities, but what of the basic notion?
Do you subscribe to my idea that the group best placed to deal with Islamists are moderate Muslims? My premise is this: if the 'Establishment' overtly tackle the movement, the ground will be made fertile for the recruitment of vulnerable young Muslims who view action as hostile and threatening. If the vast swathes of moderates isolate the Islamists, bridges will be built and the youngsters will be less likely to react negatively to their brethren.
You referenced 'the troubles' earlier. IIRC, some of the most effective peacemakers were 'normal' prodestant and catholic members of that community; authorities were viewed with suspicion and often further polarized the opposing factions.
I appreciate I'm simplifying here, and understand the complexities, but what of the basic notion?
I might be wrong, but I disagree with the premise. I don't expect you to remember my previous posts on the subject but having tried to tackle extremism, head on, face to face, I don't think so.
I have spoken to and challenged Muslims who have openly supported Bin Laden, 9/11 etc, it is quite frightening to be honest. I almost lost 3 members of my family that day, and also more on 7/7. My views against these people are very strong. It was not an experience I relished to be honest.
The best way to deal with the crimes that these people committ is through normal policing and the actions that have led to the arrest and prosecution of a number of plotters. I will tell you now, that as I have a good friend who was in the Anti Terror Police and was part of the team that brought these people to justice, the Police rely 100% on intelligence from within the Muslim community, there is no other way for them.
As regards to the overall issue, please refer to my other posts in this thread for how the overall problem needs to be resolved.
Thanks.
Asif
