I'm not really that into bite training as I can't see a point where I'll want to (or for that matter need to) use it, and I'd rather Sam stays a 'pet' - in the sense that he's not every waiting for a "KILL" command...

Another good book is 'John Fisher - Think Dog' it's what I'm working through atm. I should point out that Sam was rescued at 7-8 Months from a housing estate in a rough area of Nottingham and it's taken me 5 months to turn him from an underweight wreck of a dog that shook continuously to a confident and happy dog, so the training had to work alongside the emotional stuff which is why he's a late developer as such. The important thing is that a dogs brain is still forming until the age of 4 whereby at that point you'll end up with what you have for the rest of its life. So he's still in the learning cycle and going from strength to strength - which is rewarding for an animal that would've been destroyed.

 

We had the opposite problem. The trainer was about as much use as a one legged man in an *** kicking competition. Our dog was put in a class with much smaller dogs, which he thought was marvellous for bullying.
We only went to two classes. It was a complete waste of time.
I have found it much more helpful to talk to dog owners on here, who have given me invaluable advice, which has worked

 

He looks really good Lee. He has a "fun" look in his eye.

Les

 

I see this type of statement so often by the inexperienced and it is so far from the truth. Just because a dog is trained for PP work it doesn't mean it isn't a pet, quite the opposite in fact.

I'd hazard a guess most people here work away from their dogs every day. Is that better than having a PP dog by your side all day every day if you want? Simple answer is no. My PP dog goes where I go and is the most incredibly placid natured GSD you'd wish to meet. Píss me off however and he'd love to join in.

You also can't just 'make' a PP dog out of any dog. The dog's drives, temperament and nerves HAVE to be right or you'll be wasting your time. A fierce dog that bites is your worst candidate to be used as a PP dog. That type of dog is no more than a liability.

I have 42 PP dogs on my books worldwide at present and they will have all been chosen carefully by the trainers. Often common bloodlines are used for the reasons above and of course historic health reasons.

A properly trained PP dog, after purchasing the right dog, will cost thousands in man hours and then there's the maintenance refresher training on top.

 

What is a PP dog?

Les

 

Personal Protection, Les.

 

My son has just got himself some kind of a rescue Bull Terrier. I think it is a Staffordshire one He is 2 years old. My son has booked some training lessons for him. I don't know what he would learn, as he is so well-behaved, anyway. He is very friendly towards the cats, its the cats that wanna claw his gentle face. May be, he will learn to kick cats' @rses via the lessons, I don't know.

 

We didn't do training as such with our Rottie, but our vets did what they call "Puppy Party" classes! Great idea! As soon as your puppy had it's vaccination that meant it could mix with other dogs, you went to puppy party. The dogs were all let off the lead and left to play with each other, including play fighting, to establish boundaries with other dogs. Ours used to get pounced on by a beagle puppy every week, who would have Thunder on his back while he chewed his ears lol!!

The vets would take each dog and check them over whilst this was all happening to make sure that both they and you were progressing as you/they should and trainers would come in and help with basic training.

As a result, our Rottie isn't fazed by other dogs, sits and waits for them to pass him when he's on lead, or plays gently if off lead. He has been bitten/snapped at so many times by smaller dogs whilst he's been out and his response is to come and run and hide behind our legs! He has never responded in a similar manner and has never gone for another dog.

I do credit the puppy parties with this and also our interaction with him. We are a chilled out family and he picks up on that. In fact, Thunder is so laid back that when we got burgled last year, instead of going for the burglar, Thunder followed him into the living room in the hope he could make a new friend!! When I flew down the stairs, Thunder ran back into the kitchen because he knows he's not allowed into the living room at night!!

 

I went to puppy parties at the local vets and puppy training, very good for socialisation and the training is for YOU they teach you how to train your dog.
I must have cocked up the last bit, Cobblers!

 

The more socialisation at the earliest age possible is the best thing, my younger dog was at her 1st puppy class at 10 weeks old though she had been to classes as a spectator from 7 1/2 weeks old.

I use clicker training with her and it is a really quick and easy way to teach new things.

 

Dogs generally really enjoy training. It gives them the opportunity to please their owner and earn rewards, as well as exercising their brain - which is just as important as the physical type.

Early socialisation is key to a well adjusted dog - but don't stop with puppy parties. Regular sessions, like obedience classes, or just visiting other friends who own dogs, will also help with this

 

Thanks Spoon, that was a new one on me.

Les

 

You in "charge" of a dog trained for "protection"? There's a recipie for disaster

Be content with the well disciplined and hopefully happy dog you currently have.

All of ours have been through/are going through structured training. As well as the obvious benefits, they love it as it provides the mental stimulation that many dogs often don't get.

 

I have just put a deposit down on a Giant Schnauzer and pick her up next Saturday. Does anyone have one or can recommend a good training book? They have a similar temperament to a GSD and German police use them as police dogs?

 

Start your training from day one. They are never too young for basic command training. With the aid of some treats, and perhaps a clicker. Sit, come, wait and down can all be learnt in the first week.

 

The most important thing is to make sure they know YOU are the pack leader not them!! Training for this should start from day one, and must be applied consistently by the entire household.

You control the food. Prepare it at the same time as your own so he knows its there, but eat your own first then let him have his. If you don't normally eat brekkie, then start doing so - if only a slice of toast! This shows his you're the boss so you eat first, then him. This applied to everyone in the house too, including children. Once he's had chance to eat, remove his bowl - even if he's not finished. Only the boss has ready access to food all day, and that doesn't include him! So letting him have food in his dish only reaffirms that he is in charge.

You always lead. Through every doorway, when you go for a walk, etc etc. if he pulls in the lead, stop or change direction. You go nowhere for a while except back and forwards in from of your house, but if you keep it up he'll get the message. You go where YOU say not your hound.

You instigate play. Let him have a few of his own toys to play with on his own, but have "your" toys for when you are interacting with him, that get put away when finished. If he brings a toy to you and you play with it with him, you are basically being told what to do and doing what he says. Have other toys in a box that you get out to play with him, so that you are controlling the situation.

Five minute rule. When returning to the home (or from upstairs/another room, if you have been a while) ignore him and go about your business for five minutes or until he is calm. DO NOT STROKE HIM as difficult as this may seem - especially with a cute puppy! When dogs return to the pack, the will acknowledge the lack by licking them or whatever - which strengthens the alphas dominance. If you come in and immediately stroke your dog, it is telling him that he is the alpha not you. Wait until he is calm then call him over to make a fuss of him.

Danger. If there is a potential threat (visitors to the house, noises, etc) you should basically ignore your dog and any behaviour that results, and continue as normal. If they bark and you shout at them, as far as they are concerned you are barking too so are confirming that behaviour. If you mollycoddle them, then you are rewarding them for that behaviour, again encouraging more of the same. If you just ignore it and carry on, and get visitors to ignore them at first too, then they see that you are the boss (or in the case of a visitor, a boss from another pack) and that they should taek your lead as to how they should behave. if you don't stress, they realise that there is nothing to stress about for them either.

These all show that YOU are the boss and that he has to watch / listen to you for guidance and direction. If you follow these basic rules, it relieves the dog from responsibility of leading/looking after the pack, prevents a whole host of unwanted behaviour, and will make all other training much much easier.

Best of luck!!!!

 

Sounds like good advice.

 

Jer some of that is good advice but not for the Pack Leader idea.

Dogs are not wolves and packs of stray dogs that live on the streets in third world countries that have been studied dont have this rigid pack structure it is an out of date theory.

As i suggested before 2 good books are Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Dont shoot the dog by Karen Pryor.

The advice that you cant start to young is very true and the more socialization you get in at an earlier age the better especially if you have a big powerful breed that are used for guarding.

a good source of advice believe it or not is the Walking with dogs forum on the live for the outdoors BBS (at the bottom of the page) ask for Graham the Moderator he has a degree in animal behaviour and is a behaviourist also write articles for a dog magazine plus is the tech editor for Trail walking magazine (its their BBS)Though he owns a rescue Lab and rescue Collie. he is good for practical advice and very helpful, some of the other people on there are a bit strange

 

Interesting point.

"Pack ranking" as a concept has worked extremely well for us with the Rotties - although I'd probably agree that there are more modern terms for the same thing. Consistency is key.

Having had three of them together for a while there is no question they have a clear and distinct ranking amongst themselves. Granted its not rigid in that the dynamic changes as they grown and evolve. What was without doubt is how the dynamic changed completely when we lost our eldest. And not just between the remaining two, but in how they interacted with us.

I don't dispute that domestic dogs are far removed from their wild counterpart, but I've experienced first hand the dogs having a clear hierarchy. Pack ranking may not be fashionable as an expression, but its a perfectly good description of what exists.

Breeds will probably differ, but I do know that happy and well balanced Rotties are Rotties that understand their place and role in the household. Dogs that will, for example, sleep silently until we have finished eating.

I've heard behaviorists from all sides come up with many different concepts and theories. Some decry the whole "pack" concept and some that embrace it. Ultimately what is best is what works for the dog(s) in question.

 

There is no rank in a pack beyond Alpha male and Beta female, all others are just "riff raff" in the pack.

 

And you're an expert on dog behavoir of course

 

Now I own a book and attend leasons there's nothing I don't know

 

Devildog i think you make some very good points the dogs like to know who is in charge in different situations, but our family has 4 dogs living in two different houses and there is no ridged pack order and certainly the supposed Alpha role is filled by different dogs in different situations.

I agree that you should train dogs to understand basic manners in the house and show them where the boundaries are, i differ on how this should be done by thinking most of this can be done by positive training and not by trying to demonstrate the supposed Pack position of the owner.

E.g. i taught my dogs with treats to stop at gates when out in the fields and wait whilst i open it call them thru and ask them to sit whilst i shut the gate before continuing the walk or to release the dogs to run free. this is just basic dog control they do it for the rewards and dont think any thing about pack position

As i said get those books from amazon and read them they make for great advice