UK's best driver's car
24 October 2010, 10:01 AM
#31
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This is the same company that produces cars with full leather interiors in BRIGHT RED.
Engineering - tick
Racing pedigree - tick
Aesthetic taste - no tick
Engineering - tick
Racing pedigree - tick
Aesthetic taste - no tick
24 October 2010, 11:12 AM
#32
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John/Scotsman,
I think there were a number of factors influencing your negative impression of that evening. Firstly, we are talking about a small car here (930kg) and we put 3 full adults in it...probably adding in the region of 200-220kg. As importantly, I didn't know the roads we were driving on and, if I recall, it was half-light or dark. I had no opportunity to set the car up to pick the best lines or avoid big potholes, ruts, etc. It was an overladen car that was forced to mop up anything the road would through up where usually the driver would have a proactive influence.
Also, there was probably a fair degree of fear arising from the fact that you were being driven at speed by a 21 year old - who you had just met - in a car made of tinfoil
Even with the benefit of a more mature hindsight, I believe I sufficiently knew my limits, etc ...and so you weren't in any real danger. But I do know that these days I'd be super reluctant to jump into a hot-hatch with any young driver at the wheel.
The VTS was a firmer car than the Puma and I'll admit it had a little less compliance. However, it had way more grip and was far more adjustably on the throttle. On a road you know you can attack it much harder than the Puma and have much more fun carving your line and adjusting the car's attitude on the throttle.
If you ever get the chance to drive one in anger then take it....but good luck fitting into them and being able to hit the accelerator without hitting the brake and clutch at the same time
Finally to John, I know you like to try out lots of different performance cars but I can't recall you saying much about hot-hatches other than the Puma (which is lukewarm IMHO). If the Puma is your only real experience of a non-modern hot-hatch then I strongly urge you to try a VTS/106 GTI/Clio Williams/205 GTI or something old school of that era. They are all soooooo much fun. In fact, you'd probably have more fun driving an old ***** down a back lane than you would the GTR.
I think there were a number of factors influencing your negative impression of that evening. Firstly, we are talking about a small car here (930kg) and we put 3 full adults in it...probably adding in the region of 200-220kg. As importantly, I didn't know the roads we were driving on and, if I recall, it was half-light or dark. I had no opportunity to set the car up to pick the best lines or avoid big potholes, ruts, etc. It was an overladen car that was forced to mop up anything the road would through up where usually the driver would have a proactive influence.
Also, there was probably a fair degree of fear arising from the fact that you were being driven at speed by a 21 year old - who you had just met - in a car made of tinfoil
Even with the benefit of a more mature hindsight, I believe I sufficiently knew my limits, etc ...and so you weren't in any real danger. But I do know that these days I'd be super reluctant to jump into a hot-hatch with any young driver at the wheel.The VTS was a firmer car than the Puma and I'll admit it had a little less compliance. However, it had way more grip and was far more adjustably on the throttle. On a road you know you can attack it much harder than the Puma and have much more fun carving your line and adjusting the car's attitude on the throttle.
If you ever get the chance to drive one in anger then take it....but good luck fitting into them and being able to hit the accelerator without hitting the brake and clutch at the same time
Finally to John, I know you like to try out lots of different performance cars but I can't recall you saying much about hot-hatches other than the Puma (which is lukewarm IMHO). If the Puma is your only real experience of a non-modern hot-hatch then I strongly urge you to try a VTS/106 GTI/Clio Williams/205 GTI or something old school of that era. They are all soooooo much fun. In fact, you'd probably have more fun driving an old ***** down a back lane than you would the GTR.
24 October 2010, 11:30 AM
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With a lottery win under my belt, my cars of choice would be.
A 911 GT3 RS (In Blue with Gold wheels/stickers) for the sunny sunday drive, and an Audi R8 V10, for the all weather supercar stuff.
A 911 GT3 RS (In Blue with Gold wheels/stickers) for the sunny sunday drive, and an Audi R8 V10, for the all weather supercar stuff.
24 October 2010, 12:45 PM
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John/Scotsman,
I think there were a number of factors influencing your negative impression of that evening. Firstly, we are talking about a small car here (930kg) and we put 3 full adults in it...probably adding in the region of 200-220kg. As importantly, I didn't know the roads we were driving on and, if I recall, it was half-light or dark. I had no opportunity to set the car up to pick the best lines or avoid big potholes, ruts, etc. It was an overladen car that was forced to mop up anything the road would through up where usually the driver would have a proactive influence.
Also, there was probably a fair degree of fear arising from the fact that you were being driven at speed by a 21 year old - who you had just met - in a car made of tinfoil Even with the benefit of a more mature hindsight, I believe I sufficiently knew my limits, etc ...and so you weren't in any real danger. But I do know that these days I'd be super reluctant to jump into a hot-hatch with any young driver at the wheel.
The VTS was a firmer car than the Puma and I'll admit it had a little less compliance. However, it had way more grip and was far more adjustably on the throttle. On a road you know you can attack it much harder than the Puma and have much more fun carving your line and adjusting the car's attitude on the throttle.
If you ever get the chance to drive one in anger then take it....but good luck fitting into them and being able to hit the accelerator without hitting the brake and clutch at the same time
Finally to John, I know you like to try out lots of different performance cars but I can't recall you saying much about hot-hatches other than the Puma (which is lukewarm IMHO). If the Puma is your only real experience of a non-modern hot-hatch then I strongly urge you to try a VTS/106 GTI/Clio Williams/205 GTI or something old school of that era. They are all soooooo much fun. In fact, you'd probably have more fun driving an old ***** down a back lane than you would the GTR.
I think there were a number of factors influencing your negative impression of that evening. Firstly, we are talking about a small car here (930kg) and we put 3 full adults in it...probably adding in the region of 200-220kg. As importantly, I didn't know the roads we were driving on and, if I recall, it was half-light or dark. I had no opportunity to set the car up to pick the best lines or avoid big potholes, ruts, etc. It was an overladen car that was forced to mop up anything the road would through up where usually the driver would have a proactive influence.
Also, there was probably a fair degree of fear arising from the fact that you were being driven at speed by a 21 year old - who you had just met - in a car made of tinfoil
Even with the benefit of a more mature hindsight, I believe I sufficiently knew my limits, etc ...and so you weren't in any real danger. But I do know that these days I'd be super reluctant to jump into a hot-hatch with any young driver at the wheel.The VTS was a firmer car than the Puma and I'll admit it had a little less compliance. However, it had way more grip and was far more adjustably on the throttle. On a road you know you can attack it much harder than the Puma and have much more fun carving your line and adjusting the car's attitude on the throttle.
If you ever get the chance to drive one in anger then take it....but good luck fitting into them and being able to hit the accelerator without hitting the brake and clutch at the same time
Finally to John, I know you like to try out lots of different performance cars but I can't recall you saying much about hot-hatches other than the Puma (which is lukewarm IMHO). If the Puma is your only real experience of a non-modern hot-hatch then I strongly urge you to try a VTS/106 GTI/Clio Williams/205 GTI or something old school of that era. They are all soooooo much fun. In fact, you'd probably have more fun driving an old ***** down a back lane than you would the GTR.
Not feeling in real danger on that ride in the VTS, more that the admittedly overloaded suspension was screaming that it had had enough and was struggling to keep the tyres on the tarmac. That road is undulating, but the Scooby (and Puma) were far more stable and could take any undulation on there at full throttle no problems with fluid stability as well. The M3 was terrible, Evo not quite so good. But those roads around where I used to live are real Scooby loving roads. Most other things fall apart in terms of suspension control on them.
I actually admit to having some fun in the wife's Golf V GTI last night as despite not regularly driving a manual, I had fun setting it up for bends, driving a narrower car helped placement on the road, and I could use far more of the available power more often (due to the law, visibility, safety and to some degree available traction) than the GTR which despite being 4WD, with about three times the power feels far more overpowered than a contemporary "hot" hatch. The Golf isn't the last word in steering feel, although it is accurate, it skips a bit, but the brakes and engine work and the gearchange is not obstructive and you can nicely play with it without doing double the speed limit.
Despite me saying before that I want something that just grips and goes, the GTR isn't quite that and I wish it had some of the Evo's stability in the wet. OTOH, when I get it right, I quite enjoy it in the wet.
Not read this Autocar article, but surely on track a dedicated track car would be better than any of them?
I'll end up in an MX5 or Lexus
I think I'm confused and have mixed feelings. What it may come down to is that a Scooby can flatter which is a nice feeling, a Puma or Golf GTI feels my equal in terms of me being able to safely drive it pretty hard on the road safely, so they flatter in a different way. I still find the GTR a huge challenge, it feels better than me, but it also can flatter (only in the dry), but you always know it can bite you very hard indeed when it starts to move about as the forces are huge. So it is a bit like driving a lion with which you are friendly 95% of the time in the dry and about 10% of the time in the wet where it will change lanes for fun whilst trying to drive in a straight line.
Anyone else feel the same?
Last edited by john banks; 24 October 2010 at 12:52 PM.
24 October 2010, 01:18 PM
#39
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John Banks---Is the GTR really that bad in the wet?? I'm looking at getting one in the next few weeks and it will be my everyday car. I've not read anything about it being bad in the wet and your comments are a little worrying as we are heading out of the little good weather we get in this country and very much into the cold wet miserable weather! I would quite like to make it out of the winter alive and in one piece lol
24 October 2010, 03:55 PM
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It is good in the snow, but be VERY careful in the wet, particularly with standing water.
It has a lot of torque and the vast majority goes to the back until it slips, by then it has often moved a bit.
My real warning would be is if you get used to it in the dry, be very careful on the first few wet roundabouts until you know what it is going to do. Sometimes in a straight line in 3rd gear you have to keep it at less than half throttle. Treat it like a powerful RWD car until you get used to it. When you overtake something in the wet think about which direction the front wheels are pointing in (do NOT floor it whilst trying to steer around the car you're going to overtake, pull out, get the wheels straight and then go for it) and if the gap is relatively narrow give yourself a little room for it to squirm around when you are overtaking. In the wet, just think about how you're applying the throttle smoothly as you wind off the lock. The brakes are amazing, but the back can go a bit light under heavy braking and in the wet again this can be a surprise.
It has a lot of torque and the vast majority goes to the back until it slips, by then it has often moved a bit.
My real warning would be is if you get used to it in the dry, be very careful on the first few wet roundabouts until you know what it is going to do. Sometimes in a straight line in 3rd gear you have to keep it at less than half throttle. Treat it like a powerful RWD car until you get used to it. When you overtake something in the wet think about which direction the front wheels are pointing in (do NOT floor it whilst trying to steer around the car you're going to overtake, pull out, get the wheels straight and then go for it) and if the gap is relatively narrow give yourself a little room for it to squirm around when you are overtaking. In the wet, just think about how you're applying the throttle smoothly as you wind off the lock. The brakes are amazing, but the back can go a bit light under heavy braking and in the wet again this can be a surprise.
Last edited by john banks; 24 October 2010 at 03:59 PM.
24 October 2010, 04:13 PM
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Good post John and an interesting read as always.
As I see it, the VTS had so much more to give than our Puma that I would expect to be able drive one at 8/10ths and match everything a 1.7l Puma is doing at 10/10. At 8/10ths the VTS isn't really breaking sweat, nor demonstrating any of its twitchy qualities. Where it sets itself apart from the Puma is that you can, if you want, push it further and get it to dance around. Driven in such a way it is all the more rewarding but, admittedly, in amateur hands this is when they can end up in a hedge.
To me the Puma feels like it was well on its way to being a bona-fide hot-hatch, but the PC brigade got their hands on it and toned it down a little. As such they removed that little edge that a VTS/williams/205 had.
What is telling is that in the last year I have had both the Mondeo and Puma sat outside all day long while I work from home. Never once did it occur to me to just "go for a blast" in either of them. The mondeo isn't that sort of car and the Puma just wasn't enough fun. Even allowing a 10% allowance for rose tinted glasses, I can confidently say that I would have taken a VTS for a drive several times, just for the sheer thrill of it.
Does that make it a better can than the Puma? Well, I guess it depends on what you want from a car. Before buying the Puma we looked at a few VTS's. All round the Puma scored as a more sensible option. However, this is a drivers car thread and IMHO, the VTS is much more rewarding and fun to drive. In fact the only car I've driven since to beat it is the S2000 and that's principally because RWD, 240bhp from a screaming n/a, and wind in your hair is hard to beat.
As I see it, the VTS had so much more to give than our Puma that I would expect to be able drive one at 8/10ths and match everything a 1.7l Puma is doing at 10/10. At 8/10ths the VTS isn't really breaking sweat, nor demonstrating any of its twitchy qualities. Where it sets itself apart from the Puma is that you can, if you want, push it further and get it to dance around. Driven in such a way it is all the more rewarding but, admittedly, in amateur hands this is when they can end up in a hedge.
To me the Puma feels like it was well on its way to being a bona-fide hot-hatch, but the PC brigade got their hands on it and toned it down a little. As such they removed that little edge that a VTS/williams/205 had.
What is telling is that in the last year I have had both the Mondeo and Puma sat outside all day long while I work from home. Never once did it occur to me to just "go for a blast" in either of them. The mondeo isn't that sort of car and the Puma just wasn't enough fun. Even allowing a 10% allowance for rose tinted glasses, I can confidently say that I would have taken a VTS for a drive several times, just for the sheer thrill of it.
Does that make it a better can than the Puma? Well, I guess it depends on what you want from a car. Before buying the Puma we looked at a few VTS's. All round the Puma scored as a more sensible option. However, this is a drivers car thread and IMHO, the VTS is much more rewarding and fun to drive. In fact the only car I've driven since to beat it is the S2000 and that's principally because RWD, 240bhp from a screaming n/a, and wind in your hair is hard to beat.
24 October 2010, 04:13 PM
#43
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It is good in the snow, but be VERY careful in the wet, particularly with standing water.
It has a lot of torque and the vast majority goes to the back until it slips, by then it has often moved a bit.
My real warning would be is if you get used to it in the dry, be very careful on the first few wet roundabouts until you know what it is going to do. Sometimes in a straight line in 3rd gear you have to keep it at less than half throttle. Treat it like a powerful RWD car until you get used to it. When you overtake something in the wet think about which direction the front wheels are pointing in (do NOT floor it whilst trying to steer around the car you're going to overtake, pull out, get the wheels straight and then go for it) and if the gap is relatively narrow give yourself a little room for it to squirm around when you are overtaking. In the wet, just think about how you're applying the throttle smoothly as you wind off the lock. The brakes are amazing, but the back can go a bit light under heavy braking and in the wet again this can be a surprise.
It has a lot of torque and the vast majority goes to the back until it slips, by then it has often moved a bit.
My real warning would be is if you get used to it in the dry, be very careful on the first few wet roundabouts until you know what it is going to do. Sometimes in a straight line in 3rd gear you have to keep it at less than half throttle. Treat it like a powerful RWD car until you get used to it. When you overtake something in the wet think about which direction the front wheels are pointing in (do NOT floor it whilst trying to steer around the car you're going to overtake, pull out, get the wheels straight and then go for it) and if the gap is relatively narrow give yourself a little room for it to squirm around when you are overtaking. In the wet, just think about how you're applying the throttle smoothly as you wind off the lock. The brakes are amazing, but the back can go a bit light under heavy braking and in the wet again this can be a surprise.
Great advice thank you!
Am a little worried im gonna crash it within the first week lol
24 October 2010, 04:20 PM
#44
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John re: the GTR in the wet. I guess this is the price we pay for having wanted a 4wd car with a proper RWD balance for so long. My scooby's were all just "plant it and go" but I always longed for more play from the rear end.
John, have you driven an M5 (e60) down that section or road or similar? If so, what are your thoughts on it in comparison to the e46 M3? Are the brakes in the M5 as terrible as the M3? I fancy an M5 is the car I would probably aim for next.
John, have you driven an M5 (e60) down that section or road or similar? If so, what are your thoughts on it in comparison to the e46 M3? Are the brakes in the M5 as terrible as the M3? I fancy an M5 is the car I would probably aim for next.
24 October 2010, 05:21 PM
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I am not sure it was an article for dedicated track cars.
24 October 2010, 05:32 PM
#47
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John re: the GTR in the wet. I guess this is the price we pay for having wanted a 4wd car with a proper RWD balance for so long. My scooby's were all just "plant it and go" but I always longed for more play from the rear end.
John, have you driven an M5 (e60) down that section or road or similar? If so, what are your thoughts on it in comparison to the e46 M3? Are the brakes in the M5 as terrible as the M3? I fancy an M5 is the car I would probably aim for next.
John, have you driven an M5 (e60) down that section or road or similar? If so, what are your thoughts on it in comparison to the e46 M3? Are the brakes in the M5 as terrible as the M3? I fancy an M5 is the car I would probably aim for next.
24 October 2010, 05:34 PM
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Similar road, much better than the E46 M3 for compliance. The brakes did start to complain after a workout, just a bit of vibration in the steering, but nothing like as soon as the M3.
Trout, the picture was at Donington? Were they doing road or just track testing?
Trout, the picture was at Donington? Were they doing road or just track testing?
24 October 2010, 05:42 PM
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The M3 brakes complain after one big stop....I can't believe the M division thought that was acceptable tbh.
All sounds positive, my only remaining issue (besides having the funding - lol) is whether I could live with SMG. Specifically, whether I can learn to drive around it so that it is smooth when pottering around. I don't like the reports of lurching and whiplash when you are trying to pop to the shops.
All sounds positive, my only remaining issue (besides having the funding - lol) is whether I could live with SMG. Specifically, whether I can learn to drive around it so that it is smooth when pottering around. I don't like the reports of lurching and whiplash when you are trying to pop to the shops.
24 October 2010, 06:39 PM
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It's not gonna 'drive from the front' like some AWD cars feel...it's not that ghey.
24 October 2010, 06:42 PM
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No GT-R was included - don't know why. The test included some cars you wouldn't normally see on track.
24 October 2010, 07:11 PM
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Found a video on Autocar.
tony, it is not RWD until it slips, the service manual and logging/watching the torque distribution gauge shows that it sends a good 25% to the front especially at lower speed, in lower gears with greater throttle opening even when there is no slip, and then rapidly changes to 50% to the front with slip, but by then it could have moved quite a bit. Works great in the dry, but I'd rather it was much more gay in the wet as it would be safer and faster, and the snow mode isn't gay enough for me in the wet. Trouble is the AWD module is not flashable, and some transfer boxes/front driveshafts have broken with stickiers tyres in track use already with the existing rear bias.
It may be deceptive though because you get used to the g-forces in the dry and then you see 0.7g in the wet and realise it isn't that bad, but it feels very different wet-dry compared to a Scooby.
tony, it is not RWD until it slips, the service manual and logging/watching the torque distribution gauge shows that it sends a good 25% to the front especially at lower speed, in lower gears with greater throttle opening even when there is no slip, and then rapidly changes to 50% to the front with slip, but by then it could have moved quite a bit. Works great in the dry, but I'd rather it was much more gay in the wet as it would be safer and faster, and the snow mode isn't gay enough for me in the wet. Trouble is the AWD module is not flashable, and some transfer boxes/front driveshafts have broken with stickiers tyres in track use already with the existing rear bias.
It may be deceptive though because you get used to the g-forces in the dry and then you see 0.7g in the wet and realise it isn't that bad, but it feels very different wet-dry compared to a Scooby.
Last edited by john banks; 24 October 2010 at 07:12 PM.
24 October 2010, 07:48 PM
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I just want a car I can drive fast and not feel like im going to end up in the next ditch or up a tree when I run out of my rather limited talent!
24 October 2010, 07:59 PM
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It's on Toyo Proxes T1-R's
I'm taking it up to Litchfields this week to have it re-mapped as Iain reckons he can improve on the current setup.
Last edited by Fulmentaljack3t; 24 October 2010 at 08:06 PM. Reason: added some txt
24 October 2010, 08:03 PM
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I have had my head set on getting a GT-R and now im not sure lol aaarrrgghhh
24 October 2010, 08:17 PM
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Trout uses a but as we've already discussed, the traction and stability control are very similar to many other modern cars, and it has an actively controlled centre differential that is apparently plug compatible with the GKN unit in some Subarus. So Chris Harris was on this occasion talking rubbish, he may believe it is heavily influenced by a computer engineer or think it is a clever thing to say, but it isn't really any more than a Subaru, and arguably less so than "torque vectoring" on recent Audi/Pork and Evos for the last 10 years.
but as we've already discussed, the traction and stability control are very similar to many other modern cars, and it has an actively controlled centre differential that is apparently plug compatible with the GKN unit in some Subarus. So Chris Harris was on this occasion talking rubbish, he may believe it is heavily influenced by a computer engineer or think it is a clever thing to say, but it isn't really any more than a Subaru, and arguably less so than "torque vectoring" on recent Audi/Pork and Evos for the last 10 years.
