Nissan GTR- test drive
31 August 2010, 06:04 PM
#121
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No I don't have the skill to change gear as fast, smooth and consistently as a dual clutch gearbox. Do you? If you claim to do so, please supply a datalog of your acceleration and tell us how long your selector forks and synchros have lasted.
31 August 2010, 06:17 PM
#122
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I don't know why anybody would still want to drive a manual. When the only option was an automatic I could understand a manual. Modern semi autos can do everything a manual can and do it better. If you are happy enough to accept all the other technological automotive advancements (ie ABS, sophisticated 4wd) then why not dual clutch gearboxes?
I don't know a great deal about motorsport but I take it F1, Rally and Touring Car racers all use some form of sequential box? To me it means I can concentrate more on the road (track if I did that sort of thing) rather than changing gears.
It's especially important for standing starts, fluff the gear change in a supercar on the road for a standing start and you'll get embarrassed by some automatic diesel torque monster and you won't have enough road to make up the difference. Or you'll have to get to an unsafe speed to do so. For everyday 'spirited' (but safe)driving on UK roads you need to get off the line quickly
The biggest thing putting me off the 997tt (as well as a very dodgy new revised Porsche approved warranty) is that I can only afford a manual and not the new PDK equipped model)
Manual gearboxes are going to become the thing of men with beards.
I don't know a great deal about motorsport but I take it F1, Rally and Touring Car racers all use some form of sequential box? To me it means I can concentrate more on the road (track if I did that sort of thing) rather than changing gears.
It's especially important for standing starts, fluff the gear change in a supercar on the road for a standing start and you'll get embarrassed by some automatic diesel torque monster and you won't have enough road to make up the difference. Or you'll have to get to an unsafe speed to do so. For everyday 'spirited' (but safe)driving on UK roads you need to get off the line quickly
The biggest thing putting me off the 997tt (as well as a very dodgy new revised Porsche approved warranty) is that I can only afford a manual and not the new PDK equipped model)
Manual gearboxes are going to become the thing of men with beards.
Last edited by Dingdongler; 31 August 2010 at 06:19 PM.
31 August 2010, 06:38 PM
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31 August 2010, 07:08 PM
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31 August 2010, 07:15 PM
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Hey Ding,
ironically in Motorsport the only thing that you mention that is welcome in a race car is a good sequential box. ABS and 4WD are generally out unless required (e.g. rallying) and even there the right event will see RWD winning out; and the lower power cars are all FWD.
As for fluffing standing starts - if a car is defined by the traffic light GP then the best car you can get is a 911 turbo with launch control. 0-60 in low 3s time after time after time!
ironically in Motorsport the only thing that you mention that is welcome in a race car is a good sequential box. ABS and 4WD are generally out unless required (e.g. rallying) and even there the right event will see RWD winning out; and the lower power cars are all FWD.
As for fluffing standing starts - if a car is defined by the traffic light GP then the best car you can get is a 911 turbo with launch control. 0-60 in low 3s time after time after time!
31 August 2010, 07:16 PM
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Bring her off quicker, lasts longer, and always gives a consistent performance.
:
31 August 2010, 08:25 PM
#133
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It is obvious that you haven't collected any datalogs of a dual clutch vs a manual gearchange where an average driver uses the clutch and lifts the throttle on a turbocharged car that accelerates very quickly through the gears, otherwise you would be better informed.
31 August 2010, 08:30 PM
#134
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Yes I know dual clutch is (fractionally) faster but that is not the point.
31 August 2010, 08:38 PM
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I think Chris Harris sums it up well in the 458 v GT3 RS video. They are two completely different experiences.
Old fashioned honed to the the best it can be v the new world of Playstation like driving experiences such as 458, GT-R and the totally drive by wire 599 GTO.
Old fashioned honed to the the best it can be v the new world of Playstation like driving experiences such as 458, GT-R and the totally drive by wire 599 GTO.
31 August 2010, 08:51 PM
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I think John and Tony are crossing wires to a degree. John correctly argues that no driver can match the technical abilities of the new crop of sequential gearboxes and, even if they could, they couldn't match it everytime and would probably do damage.
Tony's angle seems more about involvement and, to be fair, I can see both points of view. I do find these new gearboxes and the evolution of the technology facinating and appealing. However, there is something wholly satisfying about getting your gear changes right when pressing on.
Remember, it's not just about what the car can do.....it's also about what we can do in the car and how we feel about ourselves when doing it.
The writing is on the wall for manual gears....I think deep down I'm a little sad. It would be nice to have always had the choice.
Tony's angle seems more about involvement and, to be fair, I can see both points of view. I do find these new gearboxes and the evolution of the technology facinating and appealing. However, there is something wholly satisfying about getting your gear changes right when pressing on.
Remember, it's not just about what the car can do.....it's also about what we can do in the car and how we feel about ourselves when doing it.
The writing is on the wall for manual gears....I think deep down I'm a little sad. It would be nice to have always had the choice.
31 August 2010, 08:58 PM
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Also I think Tony has crossed wires as heel toe is fine going down the box, but going up it, unless you can change more rapidly than the lag of your turbo charged engine you will lose acceleration. Dual clutch, auto boxes will significantly reduce this effect.
Faster, yes.
More involving and rewarding, it depends on what floats your boat.
Faster, yes.
More involving and rewarding, it depends on what floats your boat.
01 September 2010, 12:09 AM
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Tony completely misses the point in performance terms, and that is all I'm interested in. Dual clutch is not "fractionally" faster, it continues to accelerate during the gearchange whilst remaining at full throttle and on full boost, with an ignition retard that is very brief. It is more like 1-2 car lengths on each gear change vs a manual shifter who is skilled. 0.1 sec a lap is surely a joke, try triple that at least for every single change, and that ignores turbo lag.
01 September 2010, 05:54 AM
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Tony completely misses the point in performance terms, and that is all I'm interested in. Dual clutch is not "fractionally" faster, it continues to accelerate during the gearchange whilst remaining at full throttle and on full boost, with an ignition retard that is very brief. It is more like 1-2 car lengths on each gear change vs a manual shifter who is skilled. 0.1 sec a lap is surely a joke, try triple that at least for every single change, and that ignores turbo lag.
Preusumably you drive on slicks everywhere also?
01 September 2010, 06:00 AM
#140
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Rewarding the driver with perfect gear changes is all well and good at certain times, on certain roads and perhaps more so on track. On the way back from work after a hard day? I know which I would have, also safe in the knowledge that if I suddenly want to play it will deliver.
As seems quite usual on the internet people seem to have strong opinions on subjects of which they have little/no experience. I've owned powerful manual, automatic and semi automatic cars. I'd like to know whether Tony has ever owned the latter?
As seems quite usual on the internet people seem to have strong opinions on subjects of which they have little/no experience. I've owned powerful manual, automatic and semi automatic cars. I'd like to know whether Tony has ever owned the latter?
01 September 2010, 06:00 AM
#141
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Rewarding the driver with perfect gear changes is all well and good at certain times, on certain roads and perhaps more so on track. On the way back from work after a hard day? I know which I would have, also safe in the knowledge that if I suddenly want to play it will deliver.
As seems quite usual on the internet people seem to have strong opinions on subjects of which they have little/no experience. I've owned powerful manual, automatic and semi automatic cars. I'd like to know whether Tony has ever owned the latter?
As seems quite usual on the internet people seem to have strong opinions on subjects of which they have little/no experience. I've owned powerful manual, automatic and semi automatic cars. I'd like to know whether Tony has ever owned the latter?
01 September 2010, 08:35 AM
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If ultimate performance is the requirement then the latest steer and go cars are a significant advance over manual cars.
It ultimate performance is the only goal then that is great - but if the overall experience is the goal then a good manual 'can' add to that experience.
Stuck in heavy traffic, and being tired, an automatic is a real boon. Personally doing a sprint where I miss a gear is frustrating, but in a motivational way. I feel all the more rewarded when I get it right next time. It may not be ultimately the fastest but in terms of enjoyment it makes a huge difference.
It is simply down to personal preference. A manual will never be as good even for the driving Gods as a the best automatics - but for some it might be more enjoyable.
It ultimate performance is the only goal then that is great - but if the overall experience is the goal then a good manual 'can' add to that experience.
Stuck in heavy traffic, and being tired, an automatic is a real boon. Personally doing a sprint where I miss a gear is frustrating, but in a motivational way. I feel all the more rewarded when I get it right next time. It may not be ultimately the fastest but in terms of enjoyment it makes a huge difference.
It is simply down to personal preference. A manual will never be as good even for the driving Gods as a the best automatics - but for some it might be more enjoyable.
01 September 2010, 10:05 AM
#143
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If ultimate performance is the requirement then the latest steer and go cars are a significant advance over manual cars.
It ultimate performance is the only goal then that is great - but if the overall experience is the goal then a good manual 'can' add to that experience.
Stuck in heavy traffic, and being tired, an automatic is a real boon. Personally doing a sprint where I miss a gear is frustrating, but in a motivational way. I feel all the more rewarded when I get it right next time. It may not be ultimately the fastest but in terms of enjoyment it makes a huge difference.
It is simply down to personal preference. A manual will never be as good even for the driving Gods as a the best automatics - but for some it might be more enjoyable.
It ultimate performance is the only goal then that is great - but if the overall experience is the goal then a good manual 'can' add to that experience.
Stuck in heavy traffic, and being tired, an automatic is a real boon. Personally doing a sprint where I miss a gear is frustrating, but in a motivational way. I feel all the more rewarded when I get it right next time. It may not be ultimately the fastest but in terms of enjoyment it makes a huge difference.
It is simply down to personal preference. A manual will never be as good even for the driving Gods as a the best automatics - but for some it might be more enjoyable.
That's about spot on.
My preference for semi auto is not really to extract that final x% from the performance, it's just the convenience it provides in heavy traffic and the fact there is no deleterious effect on performance or control. I can still have any gear at any time, unlike with previous conventional automatics
01 September 2010, 10:39 AM
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01 September 2010, 10:41 AM
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That's about spot on.
My preference for semi auto is not really to extract that final x% from the performance, it's just the convenience it provides in heavy traffic and the fact there is no deleterious effect on performance or control. I can still have any gear at any time, unlike with previous conventional automatics
My preference for semi auto is not really to extract that final x% from the performance, it's just the convenience it provides in heavy traffic and the fact there is no deleterious effect on performance or control. I can still have any gear at any time, unlike with previous conventional automatics
Can you do a redline launch?
01 September 2010, 10:53 AM
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