Nissan GTR- test drive
28 August 2010, 07:38 AM
#61
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I don't think it is ambiguous.
If you take the Scooby as an example. It is a car that can easily be hussled into making decent lap times and the general view is that it is virtue of grip (in a wider range of situations) and acceleration rather than driver adjustability. There are less options for driver control than in some other cars such as a Caterham (I am avoiding the GT3 comparison as that would seem to be pejorative). I would call that handling - a combination of feedback and response - a high quality feedback loop.
For example power oversteer is less of an option in a Scoob; how many times do you see the need for a Scandinavian flick in a RWD car
I think many would say the Scoob has great grip but has only moderate handling.
Having said all of that I have heard (though not experienced) that the GTR can actually get quite tricky at the limit and demand some pretty significant driver skill. But that limit is very high!
If you take the Scooby as an example. It is a car that can easily be hussled into making decent lap times and the general view is that it is virtue of grip (in a wider range of situations) and acceleration rather than driver adjustability. There are less options for driver control than in some other cars such as a Caterham (I am avoiding the GT3 comparison as that would seem to be pejorative). I would call that handling - a combination of feedback and response - a high quality feedback loop.
For example power oversteer is less of an option in a Scoob; how many times do you see the need for a Scandinavian flick in a RWD car
I think many would say the Scoob has great grip but has only moderate handling.
Having said all of that I have heard (though not experienced) that the GTR can actually get quite tricky at the limit and demand some pretty significant driver skill. But that limit is very high!
Last edited by Trout; 28 August 2010 at 07:41 AM.
28 August 2010, 09:11 AM
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It is 98% RWD unless slip is detected, and although some think it is like driving a computer I disagree. The rear diff is not electronic, the traction and stability can be turned off and you are left with only an electronic centre diff, accurate and fast steering and throttle and a considerable challenge. The throttle is not hair trigger unless you tune it that way, but my old M3 was too sensitive in this respect and I do not miss it.
The downsides I see with the weight are not handling but cooling. Costs and cooling are the issues with the GTR. The weight could be reduced by more aluminium but that would put the purchase costs up and according to Mizuno would no longer load the 20" tyres properly. They must have done something right to get the lap times better than other cars that have higher peak speeds on the straights.
The reason a Golf with 276 BHP does not go like a GTR is that at low speeds the Golf doesn't have much torque or traction, wastes time changing gear, and at high speed just doesn't have the power and Cd is high even if it has a smaller frontal area. A GTR in the dry with a map claws at the road all the way from launch (if done properly which does not void warranty either) until you get into fourth gear, doing a quarter identical to stock 997.2 turbo pdk.
I am not a fan boy, clearly aware of it's failings re track use cooling and costs. Handling in terms of control weights, throttle response, yaw adjustability are not it's failings when it is neither a soft cruiser or a pure track car. The weight is not the issue it seems when you drive it. Our race car is cleaning up pretty well on most tracks against lighter competition. Another GTR tuner/driver that is doing well calls it a pig that can dance. You can upgrade the cooling and strengthen the transmission for more sensible costs now too.
The downsides I see with the weight are not handling but cooling. Costs and cooling are the issues with the GTR. The weight could be reduced by more aluminium but that would put the purchase costs up and according to Mizuno would no longer load the 20" tyres properly. They must have done something right to get the lap times better than other cars that have higher peak speeds on the straights.
The reason a Golf with 276 BHP does not go like a GTR is that at low speeds the Golf doesn't have much torque or traction, wastes time changing gear, and at high speed just doesn't have the power and Cd is high even if it has a smaller frontal area. A GTR in the dry with a map claws at the road all the way from launch (if done properly which does not void warranty either) until you get into fourth gear, doing a quarter identical to stock 997.2 turbo pdk.
I am not a fan boy, clearly aware of it's failings re track use cooling and costs. Handling in terms of control weights, throttle response, yaw adjustability are not it's failings when it is neither a soft cruiser or a pure track car. The weight is not the issue it seems when you drive it. Our race car is cleaning up pretty well on most tracks against lighter competition. Another GTR tuner/driver that is doing well calls it a pig that can dance. You can upgrade the cooling and strengthen the transmission for more sensible costs now too.
28 August 2010, 12:21 PM
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The throttle is not hair trigger unless you tune it that way, but my old M3 was too sensitive in this respect and I do not miss it.
John can you elaborate on the 'cooling' issue with the GTR please. What, specifically, is the problem, implications and potential solutions?
28 August 2010, 12:51 PM
#64
Read this thread with interest having just come back from Silverstone yesterday where I had my GTR35 and 500bhp STI5.
We drove both cars on the track within a cars length of each other so I could see the strengths of both cars - and obvious weaknesses (my friend is at least as good a driver as me -doesnt mean we are any good!)
On the point of Automatic versus Manual - I had the same issues initially but on Track you soon tire of using the manual option on the GTR - Automatic is so much easier and there is no lag between the gears anyway
On the subject of room in the car - there is enough room for baby's/infants/young children in the rear
My issue is head-height - on the track I had a real issue with the crash helmet on as my head touched the roof and it took a lot of adjusting of the steering/seating and angle of the seat so that I didnt hurt my neck so much - so I was well off a comfortable seating position
The main issue with my STI5 is that its laggy and thats why new engine goes in next week.
The GTR35 was completely standard
STI5 was running (I'll keep it simple):
2 litre Roger clark uprated internals
1240kg's without Driver and 1/5 tank of fuel
MD321V with 2 bar of boost
15% Methonal
Lowered with Exe-TC 40 way adjustment (but only 50Nm/35Nm rear). I pretty much had to run it up to 35-40 clicks all round on this circuit
The Scoob doesnt have a front splitter (it should) and it was sitting a bit high (needing lowering 5-10mm more) at the rear I noticed
GT3 Brakes, 355mm Discs up front, standard rear
18 Inch 215/35/18 Yoko Parada
PPG Gearbox
Both cars ran on average with 3/4ths of a tank - as the Scoob has serious surge issues at half a tank full... The GTR35 had no surge issues whatsoever even at 1/4quarter of a tank
On the day the Nissan was the quickest car. Its main asset is the immense (and I mean really immense) level of grip. You could really feel the weight through the 2 slow corners on silverstone south and you could feel a bit of lag - not much though. On the 2 very long straights you hardly need to slow down in the GTR - you point it and it goes where you point it - I was in fact quite shocked at how good the handling was
One thing you must watch in the GTR is the transmission TEMP level but if you dont stay out too long then at the faster circuits like Silverstone this really isnt a huge issue - temps were around 110 after 10 minutes - peaking at 117 - then we came in (I didnt want the temps going over 120 - though I understand that 140 is the really critical level)
The Subaru is laggy but you can work around that with the gearing - you do notice the time lag on the gear change and as I changed from 4th to 5th on the longest straight the GTR35 got very close to me.. at 150mph it would have edged past due to better aerodynamics
The main issue with the Subaru is the LACK OF GRIP (Trout I disagree with you on this point) compared to the GTR - this is inevitable on 215/35 Profile 18 inch tyres. It is harder to loose control in the Subaru - you can always adjust your driving to get yourself out of trouble in the Subaru. In the GTR I lost control on several occassions in the corners when I really pushed it (though one was because the tyres were not hot enough - the GTR just snaps like a very big and heavy rear wheel drive car)
One thing that surprised me was the amount of flames coming out of my Scoob.. I always thought that meant it was running too rich?
On the bends the Scoob was much lighter but the GTR kept up with it without issue. You could slide the Subaru a lot more - you wouldnt want to do that too much in the GTR due to the cost of tyres,brakes, etc
At the end of the day there was some pad deposit on the GTR discs as they were starting to worsen slightly which should come off with a bit of normal driving. The Scoob had no such issues
So which car did I prefer? - I hate to say this but the GTR was much easier to drive around and slightly faster, even with the height restriction issue
There was 2 Mitsubish Evo RS 10'S there with £6k of Exe-TC suspension, simple engine mods to 400bhp, front splitter, roll cage, slick, good AP race brakes (not the crap that costs £1500...) - all stripped out and they were so much faster around the circuit than the GTR35/Scoob
However whilst I can modify the GTR to make it faster unless I spend a lot on the suspension its not going to be a good track weapon
I am putting in a 2.35 litre into the Scoob which will give it more power and sort the lag issue out much more, but what I did find that for serious track driving the 'Fast Road' Exe-TC was woefully inadequate, I need to get rid of the Subaru's interior - fit a bolt in rollcage, with seatbelt harnesses and lighter seats, fit a front splitter, put on race suspension and see how much wider I can go with the wheels/tyres and get slicks!
There was a GTR3 RS (new one) and a Lambo Superleggara but neither came out to play much - The Lambo was going slow and holding everyone up and the GT3RS was certainly going faster on this circuit than the GTR35 and Scoob
One thing I did notice at this circuit was the total lack of track etiquette - some total ***** (one in a Porche 2S) and Mazda's and a few other ****** not moving over to let the much faster cars past - I have never experienced this at other circuits
Also Silverstone has a lack of driver parking and NO garages - its very amateur and the South Circuit is a tad boring - somewhere like Snetterton is leagues ahead on facilities and parking
We drove both cars on the track within a cars length of each other so I could see the strengths of both cars - and obvious weaknesses (my friend is at least as good a driver as me -doesnt mean we are any good!)
On the point of Automatic versus Manual - I had the same issues initially but on Track you soon tire of using the manual option on the GTR - Automatic is so much easier and there is no lag between the gears anyway
On the subject of room in the car - there is enough room for baby's/infants/young children in the rear
My issue is head-height - on the track I had a real issue with the crash helmet on as my head touched the roof and it took a lot of adjusting of the steering/seating and angle of the seat so that I didnt hurt my neck so much - so I was well off a comfortable seating position
The main issue with my STI5 is that its laggy and thats why new engine goes in next week.
The GTR35 was completely standard
STI5 was running (I'll keep it simple):
2 litre Roger clark uprated internals
1240kg's without Driver and 1/5 tank of fuel
MD321V with 2 bar of boost
15% Methonal
Lowered with Exe-TC 40 way adjustment (but only 50Nm/35Nm rear). I pretty much had to run it up to 35-40 clicks all round on this circuit
The Scoob doesnt have a front splitter (it should) and it was sitting a bit high (needing lowering 5-10mm more) at the rear I noticed
GT3 Brakes, 355mm Discs up front, standard rear
18 Inch 215/35/18 Yoko Parada
PPG Gearbox
Both cars ran on average with 3/4ths of a tank - as the Scoob has serious surge issues at half a tank full... The GTR35 had no surge issues whatsoever even at 1/4quarter of a tank
On the day the Nissan was the quickest car. Its main asset is the immense (and I mean really immense) level of grip. You could really feel the weight through the 2 slow corners on silverstone south and you could feel a bit of lag - not much though. On the 2 very long straights you hardly need to slow down in the GTR - you point it and it goes where you point it - I was in fact quite shocked at how good the handling was
One thing you must watch in the GTR is the transmission TEMP level but if you dont stay out too long then at the faster circuits like Silverstone this really isnt a huge issue - temps were around 110 after 10 minutes - peaking at 117 - then we came in (I didnt want the temps going over 120 - though I understand that 140 is the really critical level)
The Subaru is laggy but you can work around that with the gearing - you do notice the time lag on the gear change and as I changed from 4th to 5th on the longest straight the GTR35 got very close to me.. at 150mph it would have edged past due to better aerodynamics
The main issue with the Subaru is the LACK OF GRIP (Trout I disagree with you on this point) compared to the GTR - this is inevitable on 215/35 Profile 18 inch tyres. It is harder to loose control in the Subaru - you can always adjust your driving to get yourself out of trouble in the Subaru. In the GTR I lost control on several occassions in the corners when I really pushed it (though one was because the tyres were not hot enough - the GTR just snaps like a very big and heavy rear wheel drive car)
One thing that surprised me was the amount of flames coming out of my Scoob.. I always thought that meant it was running too rich?
On the bends the Scoob was much lighter but the GTR kept up with it without issue. You could slide the Subaru a lot more - you wouldnt want to do that too much in the GTR due to the cost of tyres,brakes, etc
At the end of the day there was some pad deposit on the GTR discs as they were starting to worsen slightly which should come off with a bit of normal driving. The Scoob had no such issues
So which car did I prefer? - I hate to say this but the GTR was much easier to drive around and slightly faster, even with the height restriction issue
There was 2 Mitsubish Evo RS 10'S there with £6k of Exe-TC suspension, simple engine mods to 400bhp, front splitter, roll cage, slick, good AP race brakes (not the crap that costs £1500...) - all stripped out and they were so much faster around the circuit than the GTR35/Scoob
However whilst I can modify the GTR to make it faster unless I spend a lot on the suspension its not going to be a good track weapon
I am putting in a 2.35 litre into the Scoob which will give it more power and sort the lag issue out much more, but what I did find that for serious track driving the 'Fast Road' Exe-TC was woefully inadequate, I need to get rid of the Subaru's interior - fit a bolt in rollcage, with seatbelt harnesses and lighter seats, fit a front splitter, put on race suspension and see how much wider I can go with the wheels/tyres and get slicks!
There was a GTR3 RS (new one) and a Lambo Superleggara but neither came out to play much - The Lambo was going slow and holding everyone up and the GT3RS was certainly going faster on this circuit than the GTR35 and Scoob
One thing I did notice at this circuit was the total lack of track etiquette - some total ***** (one in a Porche 2S) and Mazda's and a few other ****** not moving over to let the much faster cars past - I have never experienced this at other circuits
Also Silverstone has a lack of driver parking and NO garages - its very amateur and the South Circuit is a tad boring - somewhere like Snetterton is leagues ahead on facilities and parking
28 August 2010, 12:53 PM
#65
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The gearbox fluid temp can climb on track and then needs to be changed prematurely at considerable expense. Better fluid can tolerate the higher temps, and is best combined with extra transmission coolers for heavy track use. Gears are quite strong but there are some circlips that heavy track users tend to update. The stock drilled brake disks crack in heavy use. If you go over 750lb ft torque the stock rods can break prematurely, but the same can happen on Porsche turbos at 600lb ft so hardly a complaint.
28 August 2010, 01:07 PM
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Interesting report Steve. Amazing that the 500kg heavier GTR accelerates overall like the same power Scooby, I have noticed that too, but on strictly power to weight ratios it shouldn't happen. The grip difference is also something I have noticed between it and Scoobies.
28 August 2010, 02:03 PM
#67
This power to weight thing is always interesting in terms of acceleration.
If I send you datalogs (acceleration) of a R35 would you be able to identify if it is modified and to what stage?
The R35s (and 911s) accelerate far quicker than the power/weight suggests.
If I send you datalogs (acceleration) of a R35 would you be able to identify if it is modified and to what stage?
The R35s (and 911s) accelerate far quicker than the power/weight suggests.
28 August 2010, 02:03 PM
#68
This power to weight thing is always interesting in terms of acceleration.
If I send you datalogs (acceleration) of a R35 would you be able to identify if it is modified and to what stage?
The R35s (and 911s) accelerate far quicker than the power/weight suggests.
If I send you datalogs (acceleration) of a R35 would you be able to identify if it is modified and to what stage?
The R35s (and 911s) accelerate far quicker than the power/weight suggests.
28 August 2010, 03:00 PM
#69
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Fangoria I must protest!
There is no way you can get infants/toddlers in the back of a GTR unless they are amputees. There is absolutely NO leg room at all. I defy anybody to post up a picture of a toddler in the back of a GTR with a normal sized adult up front
Anyway popped down to the Porker garage today and can confirm the 997 is actually much more child friendly. My 4 year old will fit comfortably behind my wife with leg room to spare, and my wife said she was comfortable as well. This was using the standard child seat which I already have
My three year behind me was a different story, very very tight, not really feasible. I drive with the seat quite far back, even though I'm only 6ft. However there is still a potential there as I think a different child seat which sits further back could resolve the issue. I shall look into it.
Sorry to talk about boring practical stuff when everybody else is discussing track times and coolant temps
Wifey told me to stop going on and on about it and just buy one (if we can resolve the child seat issue) but now something else is bugging me. I haven't driven a manual in years and actually really like sequential/semi auto gearboxes. Having a 997tt with PDK would be what I really need, I may tire of a manual box. They only came out in 2010 which means the cars are still mega bucks and still have some massive depreciation to go through
If I wait until the PDK cars have come down in price a bit then the 998 tt will probably be out and I'll want that instead. It never ends!!!
PS, though I have utmost respect for the GTR and am NOT a badge snob I must say that I was aroused (!) and excited in a way when I sat in the 997tt today that just didn't happen when I was in the GTR. And I never even cranked the engine of the 997tt I was just sitting in it!
There is no way you can get infants/toddlers in the back of a GTR unless they are amputees. There is absolutely NO leg room at all. I defy anybody to post up a picture of a toddler in the back of a GTR with a normal sized adult up frontAnyway popped down to the Porker garage today and can confirm the 997 is actually much more child friendly. My 4 year old will fit comfortably behind my wife with leg room to spare, and my wife said she was comfortable as well. This was using the standard child seat which I already have
My three year behind me was a different story, very very tight, not really feasible. I drive with the seat quite far back, even though I'm only 6ft. However there is still a potential there as I think a different child seat which sits further back could resolve the issue. I shall look into it.
Sorry to talk about boring practical stuff when everybody else is discussing track times and coolant temps
Wifey told me to stop going on and on about it and just buy one (if we can resolve the child seat issue) but now something else is bugging me. I haven't driven a manual in years and actually really like sequential/semi auto gearboxes. Having a 997tt with PDK would be what I really need, I may tire of a manual box. They only came out in 2010 which means the cars are still mega bucks and still have some massive depreciation to go through
If I wait until the PDK cars have come down in price a bit then the 998 tt will probably be out and I'll want that instead. It never ends!!!
PS, though I have utmost respect for the GTR and am NOT a badge snob I must say that I was aroused (!) and excited in a way when I sat in the 997tt today that just didn't happen when I was in the GTR. And I never even cranked the engine of the 997tt I was just sitting in it!
Last edited by Dingdongler; 28 August 2010 at 03:02 PM.
28 August 2010, 04:42 PM
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Steve - interesting write up. BTW my comments about Scoob grip are relative and refer to the classics when they first came out and the Scoob had class leading levels of grip. The argument was about grip v. handling. Not meant to compare the level of grip in a Scoob v. GTR.
Also bear in mind I am commenting on a stock car, not one with twice as much power as the chassis was designed for
My other observation is your comment about handling. You state that it just goes where you point it - to me that is a virtue of grip not handling.
Otherwise interesting comments.
Also bear in mind I am commenting on a stock car, not one with twice as much power as the chassis was designed for
My other observation is your comment about handling. You state that it just goes where you point it - to me that is a virtue of grip not handling.
Otherwise interesting comments.
28 August 2010, 07:45 PM
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There is something in that.
My old 106GTI could be thrown about and made to slide at all angles around corners due to it's modest grip levels.
Where as my 370Z has soo much grip, due to the 275 section rear tyres, that handling (in the fun sense) is not there, as you'd have to really push the car, and your abilities, to get it to slide around. Something that probably isn't achievable on the public highway. In the dry at least.
Car's with less grip, but a decent chassis underneath them, are far more fun that a car that just grips.
That's why on a track, a 911GT3 will always be more fun that a 911Turbo. But the Turbo will be the safer, faster car from A to B on the public highway.
My old 106GTI could be thrown about and made to slide at all angles around corners due to it's modest grip levels.
Where as my 370Z has soo much grip, due to the 275 section rear tyres, that handling (in the fun sense) is not there, as you'd have to really push the car, and your abilities, to get it to slide around. Something that probably isn't achievable on the public highway. In the dry at least.
Car's with less grip, but a decent chassis underneath them, are far more fun that a car that just grips.
That's why on a track, a 911GT3 will always be more fun that a 911Turbo. But the Turbo will be the safer, faster car from A to B on the public highway.
28 August 2010, 07:58 PM
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As much as I respect the GTR35, the car itself does nothing for me. Well, maybe just a little.
When first looking at buying a weekend car, I went to the Nissan dealer that had a 370Z and 2 GTR's in the showroom. Also a demo car of each.
I didn't bother with the test drive of the GTR. Yes the purchase price was almost double the price of the 370, and if we discount the dashboard of the GTR (which I hate) it was the fact that the GTR was an Auto only that stopped me test driving it. And once I'd tested the 370's gearbox, I knew I wanted this car.
Which, for anyone who test drives a 370Z will concur that the SyncroRev system Nissan has used in the 370, has to be the best manual gearbox around. A manual box connects you to the car, where for most of the time a Paddle-shift Auto will be kept in Auto-mode, which dis-connects you from the car. So in the 370, you get connected to the car, and get perfectly smooth downshifts, that were once just the Semi-Auto's Ace card.
Give me a manual every time. Honestly, if Nissan stuck the SyncroRev manual gearbox in the GTR, I'd seriously consider buying one. Well, as long as they redesigned the dashboard too.
When first looking at buying a weekend car, I went to the Nissan dealer that had a 370Z and 2 GTR's in the showroom. Also a demo car of each.
I didn't bother with the test drive of the GTR. Yes the purchase price was almost double the price of the 370, and if we discount the dashboard of the GTR (which I hate) it was the fact that the GTR was an Auto only that stopped me test driving it. And once I'd tested the 370's gearbox, I knew I wanted this car.
Which, for anyone who test drives a 370Z will concur that the SyncroRev system Nissan has used in the 370, has to be the best manual gearbox around. A manual box connects you to the car, where for most of the time a Paddle-shift Auto will be kept in Auto-mode, which dis-connects you from the car. So in the 370, you get connected to the car, and get perfectly smooth downshifts, that were once just the Semi-Auto's Ace card.
Give me a manual every time. Honestly, if Nissan stuck the SyncroRev manual gearbox in the GTR, I'd seriously consider buying one. Well, as long as they redesigned the dashboard too.
Last edited by stilover; 28 August 2010 at 07:59 PM.
28 August 2010, 08:49 PM
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Coversely I disliked the gearbox in the 370z and the synchro rev worked but wasn't astonishing in any way and did not really seem better than doing it myself in non S mode and I am only an average driver. The car I tested had only 300 miles and the gearbox was obstructive to get into some gears. I also thought it was a bit lacking in traction in 2nd and didn't have any meaningful thrust in 3rd. I maybe expected too much as I was really impressed with the 350z I tried four years ago. I prefer the very ordinary but competent gearbox in the Golf, it was never this reluctant when new. Maybe I had a bad example but you'd think a 300 mile dealer demo should have been right.
Don't know if sychro rev is a paid option but if it was I wouldn't have it if it cost more than a few hundred quid, that would be the value I put on it personally.
It was nice to feel like there was a bit less bulk than the GTR but it was nowhere near as planted and became a handful at considerably lower speeds than the GTR. It was slightly damp on my test.
Don't know if sychro rev is a paid option but if it was I wouldn't have it if it cost more than a few hundred quid, that would be the value I put on it personally.
It was nice to feel like there was a bit less bulk than the GTR but it was nowhere near as planted and became a handful at considerably lower speeds than the GTR. It was slightly damp on my test.
Last edited by john banks; 28 August 2010 at 08:55 PM.
28 August 2010, 09:09 PM
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The original GT3 had the highest lateral grip ever recorded on a normal road car at that time and the current one does 1.1g.
I believe the GT-R V Spec manages 1.12 - but it is quite pricey.
Last edited by Trout; 28 August 2010 at 09:11 PM.
28 August 2010, 09:32 PM
#77
I love this topic (got a soft spot for the GTR's) i had in my fair share of Skylines r33's & r34's but unfortunatly not won the lotto latest GTR but i have sat in a few r35's & to answer a question about space in the back there is enough for me & my family
i am 5'10 - wife 5'2 & even tried one with me in the back & my brother 5'11 in the front & we fit! ok, he did move his front seat forward but he was comfy & i was snug in the back. Comparing... I sat in the the back of a mates Porscha 911 Turbo & didn't feel as comfy as i felt in the GTR. Only thing i can say is to find a car like the GTR which can whoop many factory super cars around a track with a 1/4 of the price tag & still have luxuries like 4 comfy seats, nice BOSE sound system, loads of gadgets etc.. is amazing for me personally it ticks all my boxes.. also i heard Nissan are going to make a GTR 4x4 version like the Infinity FX45 if you want the same engine with probably the same amazing stats but more room for the extra passengers then the GTR
but i have sat in a few r35's & to answer a question about space in the back there is enough for me & my family i am 5'10 - wife 5'2 & even tried one with me in the back & my brother 5'11 in the front & we fit! ok, he did move his front seat forward but he was comfy & i was snug in the back. Comparing... I sat in the the back of a mates Porscha 911 Turbo & didn't feel as comfy as i felt in the GTR. Only thing i can say is to find a car like the GTR which can whoop many factory super cars around a track with a 1/4 of the price tag & still have luxuries like 4 comfy seats, nice BOSE sound system, loads of gadgets etc.. is amazing for me personally it ticks all my boxes.. also i heard Nissan are going to make a GTR 4x4 version like the Infinity FX45 if you want the same engine with probably the same amazing stats but more room for the extra passengers then the GTR
28 August 2010, 10:02 PM
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Coversely I disliked the gearbox in the 370z and the synchro rev worked but wasn't astonishing in any way and did not really seem better than doing it myself in non S mode and I am only an average driver. The car I tested had only 300 miles and the gearbox was obstructive to get into some gears. I also thought it was a bit lacking in traction in 2nd and didn't have any meaningful thrust in 3rd. I maybe expected too much .
As I can't heel & toe (TBH never really tried to) the SyncroRev gearbox is a revelation for me. Compared to a standard manual, it's so so much smoother on the downshift. No lurching etc.
As for the Engine. Yeah, I'd say as it only had 300 miles on it, it was too new & tight. Mine has only really started to loosen up after 3000 miles. Being N/A, it doesn't have the mid range thump in the back of a Turbo car.
29 August 2010, 06:04 AM
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29 August 2010, 06:22 AM
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I love this topic (got a soft spot for the GTR's) i had in my fair share of Skylines r33's & r34's but unfortunatly not won the lotto latest GTR but i have sat in a few r35's & to answer a question about space in the back there is enough for me & my family i am 5'10 - wife 5'2 & even tried one with me in the back & my brother 5'11 in the front & we fit! ok, he did move his front seat forward but he was comfy & i was snug in the back. Comparing... I sat in the the back of a mates Porscha 911 Turbo & didn't feel as comfy as i felt in the GTR. Only thing i can say is to find a car like the GTR which can whoop many factory super cars around a track with a 1/4 of the price tag & still have luxuries like 4 comfy seats, nice BOSE sound system, loads of gadgets etc.. is amazing for me personally it ticks all my boxes.. also i heard Nissan are going to make a GTR 4x4 version like the Infinity FX45 if you want the same engine with probably the same amazing stats but more room for the extra passengers then the GTR
but i have sat in a few r35's & to answer a question about space in the back there is enough for me & my family i am 5'10 - wife 5'2 & even tried one with me in the back & my brother 5'11 in the front & we fit! ok, he did move his front seat forward but he was comfy & i was snug in the back. Comparing... I sat in the the back of a mates Porscha 911 Turbo & didn't feel as comfy as i felt in the GTR. Only thing i can say is to find a car like the GTR which can whoop many factory super cars around a track with a 1/4 of the price tag & still have luxuries like 4 comfy seats, nice BOSE sound system, loads of gadgets etc.. is amazing for me personally it ticks all my boxes.. also i heard Nissan are going to make a GTR 4x4 version like the Infinity FX45 if you want the same engine with probably the same amazing stats but more room for the extra passengers then the GTRThe question has already been answered afaik, which is two adults and two toddlers DO NOT FIT. You will accept that your wife is very petite? Did you and your brother actually drive the car with your seating arrangement or just sit in? Two very different things.
Also counter intuitively it maybe that a small adult fits better in the back than a small child due to the bulk of a child seat needed for the latter.
Anyway there is no question in my mind, it does not work for 2 adults and two toddlers even for short journeys.
Btw the rrp of the GTR is £60k, so which £240k factory supercars are you talking about?
29 August 2010, 08:58 AM
#81
What about a new RS6 saloon? Should satisfy your forced induction requirements plus seat 4 in comfort. I'd imagine they tramp on a bit with a remap.
Funnily enough I've only ever seen the estates up until now but I saw a saloon on the motorway the other day and it looked a whole lot better than the estates (always preferred the estates on the older models)
Or what about the new Porsche panamera? Practical performance.
Funnily enough I've only ever seen the estates up until now but I saw a saloon on the motorway the other day and it looked a whole lot better than the estates (always preferred the estates on the older models)
Or what about the new Porsche panamera? Practical performance.
29 August 2010, 10:06 AM
#82
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What about a new RS6 saloon? Should satisfy your forced induction requirements plus seat 4 in comfort. I'd imagine they tramp on a bit with a remap.
Funnily enough I've only ever seen the estates up until now but I saw a saloon on the motorway the other day and it looked a whole lot better than the estates (always preferred the estates on the older models)
Or what about the new Porsche panamera? Practical performance.
Funnily enough I've only ever seen the estates up until now but I saw a saloon on the motorway the other day and it looked a whole lot better than the estates (always preferred the estates on the older models)
Or what about the new Porsche panamera? Practical performance.
Don't know about you but doesn't the look of the RS6 just leave you cold?
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...ed=0CCcQ9QEwAQ
I saw the Panamera close up at the garage yesterday, that thing is HUGE! The inside looks really plush, a step up from BMW, Audi, Merc etc.
It is damn damn ugly though, you may forgive that if it were some kind of handling dream but the impression I get is that it's no better than something like the M5. So to me it doesn't make sense.
I think either I'll take the plunge on a 997tt, if it doesn't feel right to do so then I'll just wait for the new M5
Last edited by Dingdongler; 29 August 2010 at 10:09 AM.
29 August 2010, 11:09 AM
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Thanks, but Audi's just don't do it for me, no offence to Audi drivers. If I were to stay with super saloons then it would be the new M5 without doubt.
Don't know about you but doesn't the look of the RS6 just leave you cold?
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...ed=0CCcQ9QEwAQ
I saw the Panamera close up at the garage yesterday, that thing is HUGE! The inside looks really plush, a step up from BMW, Audi, Merc etc.
It is damn damn ugly though, you may forgive that if it were some kind of handling dream but the impression I get is that it's no better than something like the M5. So to me it doesn't make sense.
I think either I'll take the plunge on a 997tt, if it doesn't feel right to do so then I'll just wait for the new M5
Don't know about you but doesn't the look of the RS6 just leave you cold?
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...ed=0CCcQ9QEwAQ
I saw the Panamera close up at the garage yesterday, that thing is HUGE! The inside looks really plush, a step up from BMW, Audi, Merc etc.
It is damn damn ugly though, you may forgive that if it were some kind of handling dream but the impression I get is that it's no better than something like the M5. So to me it doesn't make sense.
I think either I'll take the plunge on a 997tt, if it doesn't feel right to do so then I'll just wait for the new M5
Think the RS6 is fast but not very fun to drive.
The Panamera is fast and more fun to drive, but wasn't just hit with the Ugly stick, it was hit repeatedly with the Ugly tree.
However, I would think give it another 12 months, and the second hand values of the panamera will make more people look twice. I can't imagine these things holding their value's well. Just look at second hand Cayenne's?
29 August 2010, 11:11 AM
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I find this hardest to swallow. I am pretty sure that Gordon Murray (or any decent race car designer) would tell you that if you needed to add substantial weight to load the tyres then the fundamental architecture is wrong.
Having said all of that I do accept that the GT-R is supernaturally quick and far quicker than it's paper specs would suggest.
Last edited by Trout; 29 August 2010 at 11:33 AM.
29 August 2010, 11:29 AM
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29 August 2010, 12:53 PM
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Dingdongler
In which case I need to send you a picture - when we next drive them in it I will!
I'm 6ft2 and yes it would be a tight squeeze - a baby/small infant fits behind me as the seats are quite long so they don't need the legroom
My wife is 5ft 6 and does not put the seat all the way back - there is enough room for my 4 year old to sit behind the wife - my daughter puts her feet on the seat in fact in front of her own seat and makes it very dirty!
On the subject of the gearbox - I had exactly the same gripe before I bought (though actually comfort and lack of rear visibility where bigger issues for me, as was lack of front spoiler/ground clearance) but the GTR Auto is nothing like other automatics I've driven (like BMW's for instance) - it is very easy to get used to.. so much so that I no longer consider the automatic an old mans lazy gearbox... which I used to.. once you've driven the GTR a few times you'd understand - before you do you wont want one. It does have Manual gearbox changes without the clutch and its apparently quicker through the gears in Race mode - I did try on track but found it required too much concentration compared to an Auto.
It has a ridiculous amount of Gizmo's in the GTR including DVD, phone sync, Ipod interface and a Bose sound system (The Bose is a bit of a Gimmic as the sound quality is a bit limp on the bass if you have had previous top end systems). But with Porche you pretty much get **** all....
I find the Porsche comments interesting- especially as I was picking up a brand new GT3 in March (having ordered in May 2009) and having tried to get a GT3RS - tried in vain within 24-48 hours of the allotments being announced. Porsche Leeds/JCT600 messed me around so much that I had no choice but to get the Nissan (Just ignore everything the Porsche salesperson (Jonathan Whitely) says as its all ***** and having now experienced terrible service at both Porsche West London (with salespeople whose phones went to voicemail and who NEVER returned phone calls, to Porsche/JCT Leeds who promised everything and delivered nothing - they even said that I would be invited to the Porsche experience at Silverstone so I could decide on the seats and final options before I put down the list of extra's - that never happened - its all a lot of hot air from people who just don't care). Being quite large and having difficulty getting in the Carbon seats - I would need to lose some weight they told me they could fit the 'comfort' Turbo seats...... You get the feeling I feel the Porsche service is terrible - so much so that I wont ever consider a Porsche now - they can shove it..
I have driven the Porsche Turbo - these are in more plentiful supply - and were £105k plus extra's - but I found this to be too boring and not having any special factor - I very much prefer the GTR. Its so funny at the Silverstone Track day there was a Lambo Superleggera and a new Porsche GT3RS - no-one seemed to care about these, everyone wanted to ask lots of questions about the GTR. (to me it means nothing - its a cheapish car at £62k and maybe I'll get around to washing it after the trackday now if I can be bothered). it has a lot of street cred - people wave, offer comments of awe in Petrol stations, you get given right of way all the time - people seem to love the thing in this country..
I couldnt fit in an Audi - I tried the RS4 and the side bars in the seats digged into my legs - I've seen a few RS6's on track but they arent as agile or fast as the GTR overall - yep good in a straightline but as my sti5 could outrun a modded RS6 (with circa 700bhp) then the package on them isnt up to much.... yep and they look boring
Unless that is you see some of the modded ones in Ukraine and Russia - carbon fibre roof, carbon fibre bonnets, bolt in roll cage, stripped out interior and slammed... then they look good as one of the Directors in the same building as my MD in Kiev has one... and that look stunning
In which case I need to send you a picture - when we next drive them in it I will!
I'm 6ft2 and yes it would be a tight squeeze - a baby/small infant fits behind me as the seats are quite long so they don't need the legroom
My wife is 5ft 6 and does not put the seat all the way back - there is enough room for my 4 year old to sit behind the wife - my daughter puts her feet on the seat in fact in front of her own seat and makes it very dirty!
On the subject of the gearbox - I had exactly the same gripe before I bought (though actually comfort and lack of rear visibility where bigger issues for me, as was lack of front spoiler/ground clearance) but the GTR Auto is nothing like other automatics I've driven (like BMW's for instance) - it is very easy to get used to.. so much so that I no longer consider the automatic an old mans lazy gearbox... which I used to.. once you've driven the GTR a few times you'd understand - before you do you wont want one. It does have Manual gearbox changes without the clutch and its apparently quicker through the gears in Race mode - I did try on track but found it required too much concentration compared to an Auto.
It has a ridiculous amount of Gizmo's in the GTR including DVD, phone sync, Ipod interface and a Bose sound system (The Bose is a bit of a Gimmic as the sound quality is a bit limp on the bass if you have had previous top end systems). But with Porche you pretty much get **** all....
I find the Porsche comments interesting- especially as I was picking up a brand new GT3 in March (having ordered in May 2009) and having tried to get a GT3RS - tried in vain within 24-48 hours of the allotments being announced. Porsche Leeds/JCT600 messed me around so much that I had no choice but to get the Nissan (Just ignore everything the Porsche salesperson (Jonathan Whitely) says as its all ***** and having now experienced terrible service at both Porsche West London (with salespeople whose phones went to voicemail and who NEVER returned phone calls, to Porsche/JCT Leeds who promised everything and delivered nothing - they even said that I would be invited to the Porsche experience at Silverstone so I could decide on the seats and final options before I put down the list of extra's - that never happened - its all a lot of hot air from people who just don't care). Being quite large and having difficulty getting in the Carbon seats - I would need to lose some weight they told me they could fit the 'comfort' Turbo seats...... You get the feeling I feel the Porsche service is terrible - so much so that I wont ever consider a Porsche now - they can shove it..
I have driven the Porsche Turbo - these are in more plentiful supply - and were £105k plus extra's - but I found this to be too boring and not having any special factor - I very much prefer the GTR. Its so funny at the Silverstone Track day there was a Lambo Superleggera and a new Porsche GT3RS - no-one seemed to care about these, everyone wanted to ask lots of questions about the GTR. (to me it means nothing - its a cheapish car at £62k and maybe I'll get around to washing it after the trackday now if I can be bothered). it has a lot of street cred - people wave, offer comments of awe in Petrol stations, you get given right of way all the time - people seem to love the thing in this country..
I couldnt fit in an Audi - I tried the RS4 and the side bars in the seats digged into my legs - I've seen a few RS6's on track but they arent as agile or fast as the GTR overall - yep good in a straightline but as my sti5 could outrun a modded RS6 (with circa 700bhp) then the package on them isnt up to much.... yep and they look boring
Unless that is you see some of the modded ones in Ukraine and Russia - carbon fibre roof, carbon fibre bonnets, bolt in roll cage, stripped out interior and slammed... then they look good as one of the Directors in the same building as my MD in Kiev has one... and that look stunning
29 August 2010, 04:06 PM
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Isn't that a moot point as according to most rumours GT-Rs are sold at 50% discount to cost anyway
I find this hardest to swallow. I am pretty sure that Gordon Murray (or any decent race car designer) would tell you that if you needed to add substantial weight to load the tyres then the fundamental architecture is wrong.
Having said all of that I do accept that the GT-R is supernaturally quick and far quicker than it's paper specs would suggest.
I find this hardest to swallow. I am pretty sure that Gordon Murray (or any decent race car designer) would tell you that if you needed to add substantial weight to load the tyres then the fundamental architecture is wrong.
Having said all of that I do accept that the GT-R is supernaturally quick and far quicker than it's paper specs would suggest.
29 August 2010, 04:33 PM
#89
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Fangoria, I would genuinely love to see those pics when/if you get time, I just can't see how its done!
As to your comments regarding Porsche dealers, in my experience 95% of dealers are ***** and give awful service. Included in that list are BMW, MB (of which I have intimate knowledge) and of course Porsche. I now buy cars DESPITE the dealers rather than because of them
As to your comments regarding Porsche dealers, in my experience 95% of dealers are ***** and give awful service. Included in that list are BMW, MB (of which I have intimate knowledge) and of course Porsche. I now buy cars DESPITE the dealers rather than because of them
29 August 2010, 04:37 PM
#90
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Random comment but the M sport 5 series has just been launched and must say it looks quite nice in the right colour. The E60 took a long time to grow on me (and still only looks good in the right colour with big wheels etc) and now the F10 is beginning to do the same.
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062174.jpg
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062169.jpg
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062170.jpg
The 530d M Sport arrives at my local stealership in about 3 weeks time and I'm booked in for a test drive. Stealer said that I could leave a refundable £500 deposit as intention on the new M5.
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062174.jpg
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062169.jpg
http://f10.5post.com/goodiesforyou/f.../P90062170.jpg
The 530d M Sport arrives at my local stealership in about 3 weeks time and I'm booked in for a test drive. Stealer said that I could leave a refundable £500 deposit as intention on the new M5.