Shaun

My last statement was certainly in no way shape or form criticising your set-up Tim, it was just putting into context how well I think the 2ltr set-up can work.

It goes without saying yours is always going to be bigger..... your age that is!

johnfelstead

Using your torque as best i can, and using Tims figures of torque as reference i get

RPM--Shaun-----------------TimLM480
2500--76bhp/160ftlb--------76bhp/160ftlb
3000--111bhp/195ftlb------120bhp/210ftlb
3500--169bhp/255ftlb------179bhp/270ftlb
4000--313bhp/411ftlb------327bhp/430ftlb
4500--377bhp/441ftlb------419bhp/490ftlb
5000--391bhp/411ftlb------437bhp/460ftlb

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Can you add yours John? Again, I know it's not comparing like with like, but might be an interesting comparison nevertheless?

johnfelstead

I could, but i cant afford to lose any more teeth.

MelTypeR

iTrader: (4)

Hi Shaun,

Would be good to do a comparison against my current graph below.



This is the current state of the map and as you can see spool is much more improved then the graph i previously posted.

This was down to the "fabled" cracked Miltek downpipe which went unnoticed for over a year, the car would run very rich, so 1 trip to FB Tuning later, he spotted straight away that it was cracked.
There still is a small hole which i have now found near the lambda sensor which will need to get sorted out on its next visit to Rich.

So although power output now is down very slightly, it now makes this power with less boost after a the last remap, think its now peak at 1.65 bar down from 1.75bar.

Obvioulsy its still not making as much torque as your due to mine being non-billet, but should give a better indication of the spool a non-billet can achieve. As i believe my old graph made it look a little laggy.

One other point to note is my LM450 is the 76mm inlet version opposed to your 58mm version. (is that right?) So not sure how much difference that could make.

Anyway would be good to get another comparison up.

I think my next step would be just go straight for a Meths map rather then go Billet, as to be fair im used to my setup so maybe in a year or so go billet with a complete service of the turbo.


Oh and im up at Donnington on Sunday 11th Nov if you fancy popping up there?

Cheers
Mel

MelTypeR

iTrader: (4)

Ok because im bored thought i'd try this myself, hopefully my eyes have read mine and your graph correctly!!

So based on your results that you posted up together with the reading from my above printout they are as follows (inc diff from mine)

RPM----------------MelTypeR----------------Shaun-------------BHP Diff----------TRQ Diff
2500---------------78bhp/163ftlb-----------78bhp/168f3lb ------- -1 -------------- 0
3000---------------112bhp/192ftlb----------112bhp/192ftlb ------- 0 -------------- 0
3500---------------168bhp/252ftlb----------168bhp/252ftlb ------- 0 -------------- 0
4000---------------294bhp/385ftlb----------312bhp/411ftlb ------ -18 ------------ -26
4500---------------351bhp/410ftlb----------378bhp/440ftlb ------ -27 ------------ -30
5000---------------381bhp/400ftlb----------396bhp/411ftlb ------ -15 ------------ -11
5500---------------426bhp/406ftlb----------420bhp/397ftlb ------ +6 ------------- +9
6000---------------451bhp/394ftlb----------432bhp/378ftlb ------ +20 ------------ +16
6500---------------457bhp/369ftlb----------440bhp/355ftlb ------ +17 ------------ +20
7000---------------452bhp/339ftlb----------439bhp/330ftlb ------ +13 ------------ +8

Let me know if i've got that correct?

Mel

Shaun

Hi Mel,
Apologies..... didn't know there was another graph! Everytime your car goes on the rollers it changes it's power!

Thanks for taking the time to redo the comp. table.

You're right I'm on the 58mm inlet, as I had been told the 76mm was not needed.

We certainly look foward to your Meth result and I'll try and get up to Donno on the 11th!

MelTypeR

iTrader: (4)

Haha well it was more for the fact that the car was running too rich due to the leaking downpipe.
But all is running well now and feel abit safer knowing its running slightly less boost.

So maybe the difference of having the bigger 76mm inlet on mine is the reason its producing a higher bhp but a lower torque figure? Hmm....

But seen as mine sees the track quite a bit it's power is where I want it, at around 5000-6000 Rpm.

Be good if you could pop up if its not to far from you.

Mel

Shaun

The difference on the inlet diameter should not make any difference in power for these applications. Perhaps someone else will confirm or deny that, but that was what I was told.

As long as you're happy with the way your car currently drives that is the key factor.

We would be certainly interested in seeing how your car performs on a Meth mix. As I said previously, I would expect yours to hit 490+bhp!

Donno is only down the road from me. Leicester is only a couple of junctions up the M1 from me.

Bob Rawle

The inlet size does make a difference normally influencing turbo spool and obviously could influence top end ultimately, the intake pipe size also has a noticeable effect. Your 58mm is not a barrier at the std engine levels of performance. So your better mid range will be down to that to some degree. Mapping aside of course.

bob

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Whats happening at Donnington on the 11th?.. Ive had a quick look on their website but cant see anything

MelTypeR

iTrader: (4)

This http://www.circuit-days.co.uk/event_info.asp?id=444 http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?t=97514

Its mainly going to be a SAAB owners club day, but they normally get a good turnout of exotics too.

Think its fully sold out now though

Mel

mogs132

Hi there really enjoyed reading all this and bought a hdi gt2 intercooler and about to order the rcm induction kit because of it

Looking at your pictures on page 21 of fitting the intercooler have you pre trimmed the bumper bar? ive just removed the bumper and have a different bar in front of the rad. just wondering if it had been cut before the photo? i have a type uk hawkeye sti.

Thanks, look forward to see what you do next

Shaun

Interesting you say that as I'm pretty sure that TD told me the inlet would not make any difference at this level on my engine.

Shaun

As far as I can remember this photo was pre any cutting took place at the front.



This is a JDM Hawkeye though as opposed to a UK Hawkeye. Not sure if that makes any difference.

Bob Rawle

Shaun its very much a fact, obviously I am speaking from my own experiences and observations on both my own vehicles and customer cars. Having one as a daily drive for 15 years helps of course (lol)

cheers

bob

Shaun

It would be interesting to see the exact differences this makes, back to back. However I'm not about to test that scenario.

maxtrash

Hi Shaun, I finally found and read your topic ^^

Same asking, and same response from TD.. Why I have so much spool is a big question for me at the moment, so Im very curious about all of that. My LM450SR60 inlet is 76mm, with perrin 3" on stock EJ207 (JDM import).

Tazz01WRX

iTrader: (1)

Correct me if I'm wrong but this isnt a true comparrison between the two turbo inlets because MelTypeR has a non-billet LM450 76inlet and Shaun has a billet LM450 58inlet? So if MelTypeR was a version billet im sure is would make more/same, power/spool up but higher bhp, right?

Shaun

Maybe or maybe not. I don't think either of us are going to swap the inlets over though unfortunately, to be in a position to comment on that validity.

Bob Rawle

You can't really generalise about it, my LM500 billet has a 76mm intake as well and that spools for England I can get full boost before 3000 rpm if I try, but thats down to the engine. So its very much application specific and also performance level specific. There is a limit to how much air can be dragged in through the smaller intake.

bob

Shaun

Agreed. I had a similar issue on my SPEC C Cosworth engine. That engine wanted to breathe for England and enlarging the filter and opening up it's air feed, saw a massive difference in airflow through the engine and subsequent boost produced and power attained. Whilst not the same, the principal of (at certain levels) getting more air in, can make huge differences on certain set-ups.

kad 16v

The bumper bar on the uk car is different from the JDM. As seen in this photo Shaun is correct no cutting has taken place it is just the round bar on the JDM

The uk car has a larger more modular looking bar as opposed to the round bar.

Hope that helps a little bit if you have not already worked it out. It may also help someone else in the future.

Shaun

Thanks kad for the clarification.

Imprezel

have u ever changed sth at the engine or is it still running stock internals etc? how high is the milage? how long is it running with 360bhp+
have u ever did any videos of it?
regards

Shaun

Apologies... I missed this one.

Everything in respect of the engine is OEM so totally stock. Mileage (I haven't driven it for months) but I think it's somewhere in the 16's (as in 16,000 miles). It has been running 400+ for over 2yrs (8k miles).

I would add it's done one competition sprint event during that time as well, but the way I drove I wouldn't really class myself as "taking part" or even "turning up" at that one!

Shaun

Right..... finally started thinking about what I'm going to do this year with the car. I want to get back on track and have some fun!!

I've just won a blistering deal on a new set of rims for the car from eBay. More on that in the future. So that means I now have enough rims for a track and road set.

I need to look at a breather kit, proper baffled sump, swirl pot and oil cooler. Hopefully more on this stuff in the near future and what I decide to do about any of it.

Shaun

Time for a bit of a proper update..... not that much has gone on since October 2012 though, including not driving the car itself!

New Wheels
As I alluded to recently I really want to get back on track this year. Nothing serious just some fun stuff as in public track days. What stopped me doing any track days last year was the lack another set of rims. Whilst they are not imperative to have (another set of rims that is for track use), it makes the whole "track tyre" change task so much easier and less stressful.

I got hold of some useful wheel bags a few years ago off a fellow ScoobyNetter (thanks Gussy), which means even with a road car, you can throw the track wheels on the back seats without fear of mashing up your interior. Well worth getting hold of some in my opinion.

In essence this was probably THE main reason (read: excuse!) not to do any track days, as I did not have a spare set of rims.

I've recently rectified that situation.

A new set of wheels can be a pricely purchase, but since xmas I had been on the look out to see if I could pick a decent set up. The idea was to get a very very nice set for the road and use my current rims as track rims. The key reason behind that is because my current rims have a couple of marks (only minor), but really need a repaint as well. The RE070's are like blocks of concrete as they are getting on for 8yrs old now. It's a shame as they have loads of tread left, but are just crap on the road really. If anything I can use these for a few track days at the very least, so the current wheels are tyres are ready to be used for that purpose.

Last Friday I saw a brand new set (boxed) of 17" Speedline Corse GT1 motorsport wheels. I do like these "classic" motorsport pattern and I placed a bid (giving it a punt at a stupidly low maximum bid). Well to cut a long story short I bagged four of these beautys for an amazing £230! Yes you read that right..... £230 for four brand new GT1's. I just couldn't believe it.

The wheels turned up within 48hrs and they were as described.... BRAND NEW!



So over the next couple of months I'll get these on as my road set along with a new set of tyres. Talking of which I'm really undecided what to get, so let me know your thoughts on this (235/45/17). I want something that works really well on the road.

The trials of running meth
Just a side note that maybe of interest to some.....

I haven't driven my car since October and the car had just under a 1/4 of a tank left of 20% Meth mix.

I've been thinking long and hard about how I go about continuing to run meth, especially as my Meth container had been opened (25ltr plastic drum) and was far from fresh.

Meth likes to suck up moisture which dillutes its content, which can have an adverse effect on it's use with a map based on a specific mix ratio of pure meth etc (assuming that the ECU does not do any live trimming for fuel octane).

Basically, if you get on the internet or listen to some people, you'd be informed that this stuff can go off quickly if the virgin seal has been broken etc etc.

Some people are even of the opinion that fuel in your tank can go off within 2 weeks (not that I have ever subscribed to that), so it made me slightly concerned that I had a load of meth that had seen the top off on a number of occasions and was over 3 months old since I last had the top off.

I thought there was only one way to find out whether this would be an issue...... bang some more Meth mix in from the original batch and log what the ECU is doing when using that Meth mix.

I put another 5ltrs of Meth and 20ltrs of VPower and did some initial logging today.

After a spirited drive I checked the ECU with DeltaDash and just looked at the live data capture which showed the IAM at 16. If this hasn't moved from 16 on my ECU it means that there is no real issue with the fuel / ignition, but the ECU could be trimming ignition whilst seeing DET, but being more than happy to control it. I must admit I was expecting this to be the case. To find this out I would need to complete some proper logged runs.

I did a couple of 4th gear full acceleration runs and I was surprised (only based on what I had read so expected some negative effect) to see no DET, no ignition retard and no learnt correction. It was as sweet as a nut!

So in my situation it appears that the Meth has lost none of it's properties over this period of time and storage method (and several times taking the top off).

Obviously I ensure the tops are very tight and I don't leave them off for any period other than when I'm decanting into smaller 5ltr fuel containers.

Thought this might be of interest to those that are thinking of using this stuff, but worried about periods of non use with previously opened containers.

I suspect caveats apply.

Bob Rawle

You are pretty much spot on with your meth observations Shaun it follows my own experience.

I have 235-45-17 AD08's on my car now and can strongly recommend them for road and general track use.

cheers

bob

johnfelstead

Regarding Methanol Shaun.

There is only 9.4 grams (0.0094 litres) of water in 1 metre cubed of 100% water vapour saturated air at 10 degrees C. So, if you make sure the container is air tight between use, the above should tell you how much potential there is for water to contaminate your Methanol each time you open it. I.E negligable to the nth degree.

Any water in the fuel tank will settle at the bottom of the tank with pure petrol, however with some methanol in the tank the water will bind with the methanol so will provide a less problematic situation, as you wont be injecting pure water into the engine on first priming, which would happen with pure petrol if enough water was present in the fuel tank, due to the fuel pump pickup being at the bottom.

Although in practice, petrol cant absorb that much water, at 10 degees C it becomes saturated with 50 miligrams of water/litre of petrol.

It's not really an issue in a car fuel tank, it can become an issue in storage tanks that hold 10's of thousands of litres of fuel, in a 10,000 litre tank you would expect to see 0.75 litre of water at the bottom of the tank if the fuel was cooled by 11 degrees C, the cooler the fuel the less water it can absorb.

FYI China uses a 15% methanol mixed petrol as it's pump fuel in some provinces, it's been using that since 2007.

Whats worth noting is that as the temperature drops, the water absorbtion rate of a gasoline/methanol mix increases. If you have an OEM fuel tank system then so long as you retain the purge valve and charcoal canister i dont see the fuel tank being able to allow any water vapour in anyway, as it's a sealed system.

What would concern me more, would be running a methanol mixed fuel with high fuel temperatures. Methanol has a boiling point of 64 degrees C, so if you are running a small fuel tank system and cooking the fuel you may be diluting the methanol content, which will of course lower the octane rate and oxygen content of your fuel.