scoobyrichuk

iTrader: (5)

Just to try and post something positive here I run a classic Impreza with k-sport 8 pots on the front and 2005 wrx 2 pots on the back, standard k-sport discs on the front and unknown grooved/drilled discs on the back (bought them second hand on here and wasn't told what brand they are), I also run bluestuff ndx pads all round. I don't drive my Impreza often but when I do it tends to be pretty hard and I've had 0 problems with these pads. The true test for me was a trackday at Silverstone in March - I did 55 laps over the day (10 laps in one session!) and suffered no problems what so ever. No over-heating, no juddering - just solid (and brutal!) braking effort all day. I've no idea why I wouldn't suffer with the problems some people here have, I installed the pads myself and I'm a total n00b!!

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

I wish my pads looked like that after 1000 miles!!!

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

I will take another later. These are older pics but still recent.

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

Right, time for a long-ish post!

Today, i've inspected the Bluestuff NDX pads on my car (2002 WRX, 4 pot fronts, 2 pot rears). They have done approx 200 miles of commuting (at rush hour, gentle driving to bed them in) then between 60-75 minutes of Brands Hatch (Indy circuit), in 4 runs of aboout 15-20 mins max. My driving style on track is far from being 'last of the late brakers' - I've driven Brands before with Mintex 1144's on the same car and know what to expect.

Here are the photos. Since Brands, the car has done no more than 100 miles (50 of these were driving it home from circuit, which is all motorway anyway!).

Drivers side:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6052.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6053.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6055.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6056.jpg

There is a considerable amount of crumbling at the edge of the block - which may or may not be acceptable. More worryingly, there are two significant cracks through the pad block itself. One is clearly visible in the photos, the other one is slightly lower and to the right in the pics.

I'm not really happy to use the cracked pad further - especially not on track! I don't know how it would react to getting that level of heat into it again.

Passenger side:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6070.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6063.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6062.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6061.jpg

You can see large amounts of pad material has separated and started to fill the grooves. Would this contribute to the problem, by preventing cooling air from getting into the pad?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...o/Img_6071.jpg

Look in the disc grooves - more evidence of the pads losing material. They seem to be very thin as a result.

Luckily I'd kept my old Mintex pads - which still have life in them yet. They've done about 15,000 miles, including Brands and the Nurburgring - and they look as good as new (apart from being thinner!). Yes, they might fade a bit more than the NDX, but hey ho - they haven't self destructed!

I'm interested to see what people think - and I'd invite Aztec to contact me too. The pads are designed for 4 pot calipers and sold specifically for track use - so surely they shouldn't wear and crack like this?

Should I be returning these for a refund - as not fit for purpose? To make matters worse, they seem to have done a good job of clogging the grooves on the discs and leaving a lot of contaminent on them too - so I'll probably have to replace those as well!

EmzWRX

iTrader: (2)

Shocking..........

Moley

iTrader: (9)

I thought the Bluestuff NDX's were painted blue?

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

Interesting post. I have a set as yet unfitted. I was hoping they would equal or better the DS 2500 I currently have. I'll wait a while..................

EmzWRX

iTrader: (2)

I did think they look nothing like my pads, I can see blue!!

thought perhaps I was stupid woman.......

DannyBoy007

iTrader: (7)

Are you sure you've been given the correct pads/mix up in the factory. Mine are bright blue like scoobydoo69's previous pictures, work fantastic and have only faded once and that was really pushing the car(I was expecting them to fade then)

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

They were blue! The paint has blackened/burnt off. You can still see faint areas of blue where it hasn't all blackened in some of the pics.

Rears are still blue as they obviously had less build up of heat.

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

Yep, as per previous post - they were bright blue to start with. They came in sealed EBC boxes labelled as Bluestuff NDX, part code DP51200SC (I still have the box).

Anger

iTrader: (4)

Think i'll stick with my PF pads... was going to change for our trip to the Nurburgring Steve, but not now

Ive done Brands twice, the ring, that drivers training day and there still fine

Moley

iTrader: (9)

Bloody hell Steve, you've given them a good workout!!!

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

Oh yeah, I forgot that my Mintex pads did that airfield driver training day too!

Cheers Gary Thing is, I really didn't beat them up *that* much.

On each run, the pads would work brilliantly up to a point, but then the performance would rapidly fall away. Its as if they got to a critical temperature, where beyond this the pads didn't work properly - and started shredding material at the same time. Strange how it only seems to be an issue on WRX 4 pots though, nobody has any problems with STI brembos and larger calipers....

I don't want to turn this into some kind of witch hunt as I know the limitations of the WRX's calipers compared to the better STI brembos. The NDXs worked excellently whilst they weren't overheating. On the day, I was pleased with how well they'd resisted fade compared to the Mintex pads. I'd still be a happy customer if i wasn't for taking the pads out and seeing the state of them (and my build-up/contamination on my discs!).

Hopefully someone in the know will provide some answers soon

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

This is as of 10minutes ago. Can't say I know how many miles they've done now... not many more than before as I've barely used the car.



And the pic from however long ago:

Andy Freeman

Hi Steve PPP

Your Blues got well hot and have started to smear, the discs are not damaged, this is blackened copper and can be cleaned from the grooves and the discs cleaned up with abrasive paper and they will be fine.

Copper is included in Blues at a weight of 4%. The less copper the less the thermal conductivity which we need and the more the chance of smear.

Copper melts at 1083C so that is what the surface of your pads have seen, Amazing eh !!!

So what causes such a high temperature ?????

I have been criticised for saying calipers on this EXACT model drag a lot in my post 84 here but that post does have some other info that would be of interest to you.

If you e mail me on andy@ebcbrakes.com I may decide the best way is to let you have a different mix of Blue to try again. However we will NOT be changing Bluestuff for general sale, it is simply too good and adds to our arsenal of pad mixes but I will let you in to another secret (again touching on what I said in post 84) and that is EBC is working on a higher temp stable blend of pad for RACE USE ONLY and may have something during this summer. We have a brilliant R and D guy Steve Payne and he has been on this for over a month now and has some printouts for me to go through with him next time I am down at the Bristol factory, then we may sample a few guys for this RACE ONLY issue of highest temps.

Up for that ????

Cheers

Berks-Jack

iTrader: (10)

Is this problem specific to the Subaru 4 pots Andy?

I'll probably be due to change my front pads at the end of the summer and was going to get a set of the blues but now after reading this I'm unsure.

I've got the standard 4 pots on my wrx and obviously don't want to have the same issues that Steve has encountered.

Or are the yellows better suited to the wrx 4 pots?

Thanks


Jamie

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Andy - steve is on the brembo Sti caliper not the Wrx one. So the lack of dealing with the heat that the friction is generating seems to apply to OE calipers across the board.

If you bring out this revised material are you going to downgrade these pads To be promoted for fast road use ?

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for replying Andy. I'll drop you an email later on today.




I'm on wrx 4 pots, not brembos.... or do you mean a different Steve??

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

ah sorry was mixing up kostas pics with yours Steve. I blame my old age

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

Yeah I think I've kind of been ignored? They will probably look like Steves when I next go to the track though. Not sure ScoobyShootout will give them a work out really

I-am-Cos

iTrader: (6)

Hi Andy,

Re your post #106

Are you saying there are more than 1 grade/type of Bluestuff pad?

In an earlier post you also mention a new high carbon rotor coming out. Has this new disc come about because of issues or just as a result of new materials/development & would I be better off waiting for these?

Obviously I will be trying out the new discs & pads you are supplying on track as soon as I'm able (Although with my current workload, it may be some time) & will give you honest feedback with my findings.

Andy Freeman

Scoobydoo, great to hear your judder went away after full bedding but of course you are on the larger discs and the Brembo 4 pot system which is of course a better and larger system.

The problems here seem to be wth the smaller 294mm Impreza disc where cars are pushing the brakes just beyond what that size of system will handle in track driving and the temps are GOING WAY ABOVE 1000 C and even meltting the copper content in the pads.(Thats the smearing you see, it is removable and it is NOT cementite Duncan so the discs have not been ruined)....DISCS WONT HOWEVER LAST LONG at these system temps so watch them carefully.

This issue will only happen in faster track use and as Duncan from Race Dynamix asked will we recommend Bluestuff only for fast street on this early Impreza the answer is NO .....as this is a problem is so far limted to the smaller 294 mm discs and when used on a HARD TRACK (Snetterton) in a quick car.

As I have asid many times just popping a set of Blues in a car wont be a complete race conversion on the brakes and we will make the best we can of this by working with the market to bring out quickly

1) Higher thermally stable HIGH CARBON discs this summer to get rid of the heat although this disc QUALITY in itself is not an issue, more its size and that HIGH CARBON will definitely cool much better generally.
2) Looking at the copper content in Bluestuff to see if we can reduce this slight smearing
3) Recommending cooling the discs with better ducting and perfectly free calipers


All of which could HELP but again, this 294mm set up is TOO SMALL for the speeds we are seeing here and drivers might need to go up in disc size and change calipers.


In decent calipers and on slightly larger discs Bluestiff is still proving to be a great pad on the track, even as it is currently blended, had another feedback report in today from a Corvette driver using Blue on a stock system (much larger) and he loves them, get many reports like this so we have here a system specific problem ( Not a compound problem) on a car that is honestly underbraked for its Gee Gees.

Cheers to all
Andy

Andy Freeman

Hi Paul

EBC HIGH CARBON discs are coming this summer anyway, yours I sent are DISCALLOY which has higher thermal capacity than standard iron but in answer to your other questions

1) I CAN and will if you wish do you a blend of Blue with less copper but that depends if you want to spend another day testing
2) I WILL send you a high carbon set as soon as they are available but were talking August.
3) I STILL HAVE not had one player fit a competitor set of pads on a car of your type and say the system works well pointing to the Bluestuff being the culprit.

As in my other post today, this is a system problem that we can "Fine tune" but honestly mate, you need bigger discs and new calipers and I suggest you speak to one of our coop vendors like Hi Spec or K Sport and then you will jump into smile territory quickly.

Cheers Andy

I-am-Cos

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for your reply Andy,

As you know, I just want to make sure that the set-up I have will be OK to do the odd trackday while still being a good road pad.

I'm still getting conflicting signals/messages here. (Unless I've completely missed the point ).

It seems that I've been told:

I need to check run-out & geometry - fair enough not a major issue
I need to strip my calipers twice a year - this will resolve any possible binding issues?
My set-up isn't ideal anyway?

If I had the money & time to test a variety of pads & disc combinations, I'd love too

The problem with this as I see it, is if I try the new Bluestuffs & discs (After checking run-out & bedding in as per your instructions) I still get a juddering problem, I won't be able to try a new set of pads on the same discs as I won't know if any damage/deposits have been done to them.

With the cost of a trackday, petrol, a set of pads & discs, we are looking at £500 +

I'm just not in a position to spend this kind of money to have a similar experience as i had last time. (Max 10 laps - £50 per lap!!!! )

Obviously I was hoping the set-up you were sending me, was going to address these issues and I could have a trouble free trackday, but your last post has put more doubt's in my mind as my current set up doesn't appear to be man enough for the job.

Like you, I hope someone has already experienced a trackday in a WRX with the same calipers but with different pads and can tell us their experiences - There's got to be someone out there........................

Steve_PPP

iTrader: (3)

Hi Andy,

Apologies, I haven't had a chance to email you yet. Will hopefully sort it today.

My issues were at Brands rather than Snetterton. In terms of the car being quick, its a standard 2002 WRX PPP - rolling roaded at 250bhp. Not pushing the boundaries of performance

If you are recommending it as a 'only for fast street' (your words) then why are they sold and packaged differently? This is the box I received my pads in - notice the yellow sticker....
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ho/ebc_box.jpg

I agree the WRX setup isn't going to last well in a really aggressive track environment. But if you sell pads to customers labelled as race/track use specifically for these calipers, then the customer will expect to be able to use them for that purpose. It seems we can't....

Andy Freeman

Thanks Steve

I am reading all of you here but lets do two things

1) Remember what this thread is about. It isnt an ANYTHING GOES EBC analysis. It was to compare Pagid with EBC in same systems for Track use. So I am now going to BUY a set of Pagids and send them to "I am Cos" who is a chap named ...Paul and see if he will test them

2) IF THIS COMMENT EXCHANGE WERE ON A GENERAL THREAD (AND LETS FORGET WHERE IT IS FOR THESE NEXT COMMENTS) There would be THREE clear things to resolve

a) Can the EBC Bluestuff live on the early Impreza two pot system with a standard 294mm disc in terms of brake performance, smearing and fade to provide a decent RACE brake??????

b) Can we resolve the rotor flutter (thermal judder) by switching to HIGH CARBON discs on this same 294 mm set up.

c) Does another pad (and because this thread is about Pagid 4.2.1 - lets try those) provide a miracle cure FOR THIS EXACT SET UP PRIOR TO GOING HIGH CARBON ON THE DISCS.

MY PROBLEM is I cant find anyone who will take the risk to go to a Trackday and pay the dough to test this out for us on their car ????


Any takers ??????

Cheers Andy

I-am-Cos

iTrader: (6)

Hi Andy,

I will gladly test the Pagids (or any other pad/disc combination), but my finances don't run to booking various trackdays with a view to find out what works & what doesn't)


I thought from your recent remark that my standard 4 pots weren't 'up to the job' of trackday action? (& believe me, I'm not breaking (excuse the pun) any records out there!).

If that's the case though (& I'm quite happy to accept that, if it's the general consensus), then are we wasting our time sticking with the standard set-up?

Ideally, I'd like to put on the discs & pads you've supplied & be able to report that they are absolutely fine. But if as we suspect I need to upgrade, will I be throwing good money after bad by booking more trackdays with my current set-up?

It's a shame I can't reproduce the same fault on the road as that would save a few quid...... but as I've said it appears to be the heat thats causing the problems & I just can't get them hot enough on the road.

As you know by now, I just want a set-up that will work - surely can't be too difficult in this day & age

Andy Freeman

OK understood but where do we go from here

1) I have just ordered at a price of £172 a set of Pagids for you

2) I cannot guarantee they will work any better but it will give you and me a direct comparison and determine if it’s the system or the Bluestuff pads.

3) If you want 100% guarantee of good brakes to have to shell out quite some cash

4) Please DO NOT go to a Trackday with the parts I sent you, I prefer to get them back unless you want to keep them for street to compensate for the items you feel we scrapped for you on the trackday

5) If you don’t want to test the Pagids, that’s also fine


This sums it up really, we are still looking for a tester to try new materials of pads and discs but if you say you wont do it due to Trackday costs I will have to find someone who will do that for us

Just tell me then where we stand Paul

Cheers and kind regards Andy

fastboyslim

iTrader: (2)

Andy, any EBC probucts you want tested and reviewed on a 05 STI, i am your man