davyboy

How am I trolling when the evidence is there for all to see, the BBC forum even slow it down so you can see.

I can only suggest you watch it.

P1Fanatic

The only way to tell categorically if Webber made a movement left is by reviewing the car data and we & the press will never get to see that. From the video footage I have no idea how anyone can sit there and state that Webber definetly moved left based on the steering wheel feedback that we can all see is constantly flicking between left & right as the tyres follow the track. Granted he could have given him more room but Vettel didnt need to flick right. Im glad webber got some points out of it and Vettel got none. Move on next race.

Simon

RA Dunk

Other than a general steering correction I cant see where Webber pulls left.

davyboy

Take a look at this, and go to about 12 mins when they discuss the incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...nd_Prix_Forum/

Leslie

Yes really!

Les

RA Dunk

you think thats giving each other room? jeez, so what do you call close then?

r32

Hey, come on guys appreciate that we are allowed our own opinions.
Mine is that it was Vettel that was at fault, more so after watching the BBC footage over and over again. I also set great store (not being an ex F1 driver or other expert) in Alex Wurths comments and view of the incident, never mind DC's comments. I think he was a F1 driver of some reknown too? AW having been an F1 steward too.

I'm good to listen to them.

Leslie

They are committed to a line through the bend which cuts down their options but they had enough in hand to cope. Neither tried to run the other off the road! That is what safe outbraking etc. is all about. As soon as Hamilton knew Button was on his outside he moved to his right sufficiently to avoid a pile up.

If you want to know what's close-take a look at the Red Bull pair! have you tried outbraking another car into a corner, if you have you will know what I am saying.

Why do you feel you have to jeer at what I said?

Les

RA Dunk

Because I feel what you said was incorrect, they didnt give each other room infact it actually looks like they touched!

But hey ho, we all love a good old debate

mark-f1

I think its 50:50 maybe even more Webbers fault.

Vettel had got in front by half a car length, and had the inside line which is track position. The natural racing line for that up coming corner would be to move right (especially noting webber vs hamilton at the same corner Webber had to take a wider line EVERY lap)

Yes Vettel has moved right a touch too much but Webber hasn't given him an inch and had nothing to gain already being on the outside and behind.

Glad to see Mclaren managing to keep in touch with the Redbulls this weekend.

RA Dunk

He maybe did not have anything to gain but he had everything to loose, he moves right to let Vettel past and before he says WTF was that Hamilton slips in past on the corner as well, a driver has the right to defend his position and not just surrender it ***** nilly to anybody who feels like trying it on.

Devildog

Dave,

Of course Horner gives favour to Vettel. Naieve to think otherwise - and the evidence was there for all to see.

Devildog

Les,

if Webber had given Vettel more room, probability is that Vettel would have been past and won the race.

And that's the key - its a race. Webber was entirely entitled to hold his line and Vettel could (and should) have lifted, rather than forcing his position.

Team pre race orders/understanding, call it what you will, may dictate otherwise, in which case Webber may well have acted in contravention to the team's protocall (which may explain why Horner was blaming Webber)

Webber has been the faster of the two of late, though, and why should he then "yield" which is effectively what you are suggetsing he should have done?

davyboy

I've not suggested he doesn't favour him, I am sure he does.

My point was that if you think it 100% Vettel's fault, then for Horner to lay some blame at Webbers feet, I mean that's just farcical and I'd be pretty sure Webber and Horners relationship would be over!

He may as well be saying black is white. I don't think Horner would publically blame the other driver if there was no evidence. Which as you have suggested is there for all to see....although some dont want to see.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

All this bollocks about Webber turning left.

He is totally blameless turning left off the ideal racing line to defend a position, as you are allowed to do - in the rules one direction change allowed etc.

So all this he did / he didn't turn left at so many seconds on a youtube / Iplayer clip is completely irrelevent when it come to apportioning blame for the crash - because at the time of the move off the racing line (yes this 'left turn') Webber was ahead and Vettel was behind. Webber is entiltled to go where he pleases to defend a position as long as he doesn't weave - which he didn't.

As soon as Vettel is alongside then Webber holds position, as he is entitled to do. Vettel is entitled to hold position too, but decides to turn into Webber's line befere he has completely passed Webber - in fact there was no way Vettel was going to be ahead before the braking zone.

Oh and by the way Honer can wrap Vettel in as much cotton wool as he likes regarding his own agenda ridden 'backing' of Vettel, but the drivers in the paddock all know Vettel was to blame and make no mistake Vettel will be made very aware of this.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Tarred with the same brush LOL!

Anyway the explanation for Horner's comments are back up there in this thread and well suppported by F1's history. You just didn't want to read them as you were too busy making silly jibes instead.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Sense at last - excellent post.

davyboy

Of course, you'd not stoop so low.

EddScott

Personally, I think it's Horners comments that have fuelled the fire to this. Seb isn't all guns blazing in the above link and IMO Mark implies it's Sebs fault and Seb doesn't really lay blame anywhere.

Horner didn't make impartial comments. The only one that didn't was Seb.

Didn't Seb take Mark out in his first or second race for toro rosso? Sure I remember Mark saying something like Well this is what happens when you put kids in these cars!

davyboy

Looks like Redbull have made Webber do some media work

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/...21242855170930

RA Dunk

lol read the comments below it

EddScott

Jaysus! Wheel out the fall guy but allow free comment underneath - what the heck are they thinking!!!

RA Dunk

yea they arent half getting stuck into Vettel lol, fair play to Red Bull for not deleting them though.

EddScott

Sort of. Bit of an own goal if you ask me.

EDIT - if its only Mark doing the Jackanory, maybe this suggests he isn't quite as inncocent as we think?

RA Dunk

Weve all seen the race, clips on You Tube, interviews etc etc

Funny why Vettel hasnt done a video yet though isnt it?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No as when you call me a clown it's a jibe, but when I call you a fool it's a description

scooby L

The crash 100% Vettel's fault

The circumstances leading up to the crash... who knows... The team telling Webber to wind it in a bit...and then telling Vettel to up his game?.. surely not... more like Webber expecting vettel to be his wing man for the next 10 laps and when he gets the run on him out of 9 he puts himself in the best position to defend the lead... unfortunately Vettel is more aggressive than he expected and the old "swerve technique" to give him another half car width of track results in Mark collecting him... I can understand Christian shouting "move over Mark" (prob to no one other than his left hand man on the pit wall) in sheer panic that both his cars were going to take each other off... (Mark being the car with more room so an obvious call...)

I thought we were going to see a repeat performance with jenson and lewis... but common sense and mutual respect kept them both on the road

Vettel was runing less downforce to compensate for the lack of the new diffuser tips... and actually had more top end speed..so hardly a diss- advantage (apart from turn 8 where no one could match Mark)

ODWOC

Just to clarify, Vettel was running this upgrade before Webber

Petem95

I think this comment from another forum sums things up nicely;

This whole incident has increased my respect for Webber massively. IMO he did nothing wrong at all, and acted like a gent after the incident, and yet the team seem to have gone against him and have just sided with their blue-eyed-boy Vettel who showed his true colours.

Lost a lot of respect for Vettel and the Red Bull team. I hope Webber can take the championship with RB, then jump ship. I've no doubt Vettel is a star of the future, but he showed some serious arrogance there expecting him to be allowed through into pole as if he's the defacto number1.