TimH

iTrader: (11)

DV isn't in front of the airbox is it, which is where the OP said this is? I wondered if it might have been the fuel pressure regulator, but lack of clips on the thicker pipes rules that out I think.

But, I agree that the thinner pipe looks vacuum related...so maybe related to boost control solenoid?

Either way, it being trapped cannot be right, so I would remove airbox, free and/or replace the pipe and test again.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

No, I'm 99% certain that's a black plastic "in-line" MY93-96 recirc DV (looking at it from the underside)!

But if it has been fitted to a MY00, then it will have been modded to make it fit, as the MY00 TMIC has a cast flange for the OEM metal DV (assuming the OEM MY00 TMIC is still present). So it's position will not necessarily be where you'd expect it, comapred to a MY93-96 car, IYSWIM.

Simonds, can you post some pics up of the whole of your engine bay? - we need to get to the bottom of this aspect....

TimH

iTrader: (11)

OK - fair enough I do like a mystery

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

No it's not. Looks sort of similar, but it's not.

Got one on the desk in front of me.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

I've actually edited it:-

No, I'm 99% certain that's a black plastic "in-line" MY93-96 recirc DV (looking at it from the underside)!

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

What the hell is it then? Look's "exactly" the same (from memory, at least ).

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

Buggered if I know.

I was thinking something to do with the carbon cannister.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

If it isn't the early DV (and it's obviously odds on that it isn't, as Micky points out), then my sincerest apologies OP. Forget my ramblings, etc.

But if you could take a pic of the item a bit futher out, so we can see the other stuff around it and more of the engine bay etc, that would get our heads around (mine at least) what we're looking at, etc....

simonds1

No lol, completely wrong sorry dude! I said it was at the front of the car infront of the airbox? I've tried to show where it is here.......



It's the thing I've circled green in the close up view. Dunno what it is, but one pipe from it seems to go to a little cylindrical thing at the front? Carbon canister sorta thing is it? Then another pipe comes off it and goes to the main big air intake coming off the airbox, and then another seems to go back to all the boost pipework around the turbo/boost solenoid etc

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Yeah, tim was right, it's some kinda valve to do with the oil breathing system (if it is a valve, then ironically it would work just like a recirc DV - but, presumably, diverting oil fumes/vapours instead! ). But sorry tim (and micky ).

But if it defo has a vac pipe relating to the the BCS system, and is crushed/collapsed/split in anyway, then defo replace it with a fresh new one!

It may not be the reason for your problems in itself... but it certainly ain't gonna help your situation. So yeah, replace it FIRST, then go out for another drive, etc. and report back...

Splitpin

Simonds, have had the weekend off so not had a chance to look at your post in full yet - will have a proper squizz tomorrow. However, just to give the ball a bit of a kick...

Joz, that isn't the DV it's the canister purge valve. Orientation of the pic is a little confusing, but it's offside flitch panel we're looking down at. The airbox you can see in the upper left, timing belt cover in the lower right, and the MAF tube running across top of frame.

Simonds, that pipe shouldn't really be tight, sounds like it's trapped under the airbox and that's stretching it a little. All that stuff, the carbon canister included, is for vapour control/emissions compliance. No harm in you pulling the tube off and giving it a good visual inspection for splits. Air getting in anywhere it's not supposed to can cause all sorts of weird stuff. Speaking of which, make sure the elbow on the end of the canister purge pipe is stuck in its hole in the air link pipe (the big one that goes from the MAF tube to the engine). Looks like it is in your photo, but better to check it.

As regards the O2 sensor, it's not at all surprising to hear you haven't got the CEL despite leaving it disconnected, so no this is nothing to worry about. As you can see from your log, the O2 sensor signal line floats at around 0.34 volts when left open circuit. If I remember right it has to be either 0.00 volts for a certain period of time, or over 1.2 volts, again for a period of time, before the error state is set.

Anyway, I'm orf, more tomorrow/

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Yeah I realised my mistake SP, when simonds posted the engine bay pic - I did acknowledge it in post #40

simonds1

All sorted now. It hadn't actually been trapped or crushed, it'd just been pulled really tight and there was no movement in it at all, so I took that pipe off and have given it another route now which means it isn't tight anymore, it's nice & free.

I did actually think of buying some samco vaccuum piping and just replacing all of my vaccuum pipes. I dunno if you think that's a stupid idea?! It won't cost that much, and allthough I have looked at all the pipes and they seem fine, I spoze I'm never gonna be able to see a microscopic split with my naked eye sorta thing. Maybe that's overkill, but it was just an idea I had! I don't think a split in one of those vaccuum hoses can actually cause the problem I'm having anyway, but if there is some sort of leak I'm sure it won't be helping me at all.

Aye yeah, she's definitely in there.

I haven't had a chance to go out for another drive yet and do an ECU explorer log with my lambda sensor back on. It's back on now by the way, I re-connected it on saturday. Car doesn't seem any different at all. I also still haven't heard back from Bob yet. Thanks Splitpin, appreciate your message even tho you've had the weekend off. Look forward to hearing more from you!

dnc

Sorry to hijack, this is the kind of thread that made SN what it can be. Splitpin is almost Stig-like . As in TG stig not 'of the dump'. Some say............

tjmatt

iTrader: (1)

From the logs to me it looks quite clear:

The turbo is only boosting to the actuator pressure of about 7-8psi when you are seeing issues. Therefore a likely cause is that the boost control solenoid wires are a bit suspect and the valve is sometimes not bleeding the air required to increase the boost pressure past the 7 psi that the actuator. That or there is something moving and blocking the pipe where it bleeds.

It may be worth checking that the wires around the ECU haven't been chopped and stuck back together if someone had an aftermarket boost controller installed one time.

It certainly looks to be a boost control issue - if you had a boost gauge you'd probably be able to see it stick at about 0.5bar when its not working correctly.

Splitpin

Now you tell us! If it's a possibility that your foot wasn't down then that changes the outlook significantly, primarily removing the TPS from the top of the list of suspects and making things altogether more confusing. I've just had a look at those logs of the TPS tests you did and there's nothing there that sticks out as abnormal, so we'll assume for the time being that your observations were correct and you didn't actually have your foot down that time you saw the low TPS voltage.

If you can get some more log data, especially when the car's acting up, it'd help rule this explanation in/out.

Interesting. It should rev to around 1500 when started from cold but immediately starting to settle down to a stable cold idle of 1100 or so, dropping continuously to around 750-800 as it warms up. We can see from your logs that the coolant sensor's reading fine once up to temp, but have you tried looking at/logging this when your engine's stone cold and/or warming up? If it does something odd - like reading -40c when you first start the car up in the morning, or, as suggested with the throttle sensor, causing let us know.

Agreed regarding the possibility of this being a boost control issue, but to me it doesn't look anywhere near as clear cut. There's some data in this log that is contrary to what you're suggesting, which is why this is so confusing - and why I asked about the turbo and boost control setup before.

The ECU actively monitors the connection to the solenoid and an open (or short) circuit longer than 0.4 of a second is enough to trigger the CEL with code 44. That log extract Simonds posted shows a WOT sequence of over 5 seconds during which the turbo is notably failing to boost - yet as far as we know there's no CEL. This tends to suggest there's nothing major at fault with the connection to the solenoid, although agree totally it's something to look at.

In addition, as you say the maximum pressure recorded on the log is around where the actuator crack would be. However, it's in the higher end of that range and the behaviour of the turbo in the log is not consistent with what you'd expect in this scenario. There you would expect the turbo to spool normally, hitting actuator pressure at around 2400-2600 rpm and then continuing to hold pretty much the same MRP until the throttle is released.

In the first log excerpt, the engine is already at 2800rpm at the moment full throttle is applied, having got there on part throttle (so the turbo should be reasonably well spooled already). Yet, it still takes another four seconds to hit peak pressure. That's not what you'd expect in a scenario where everything was otherwise working fine, but the actuator was either effectively disconnected from its power supply, or the bleed outlet blocked somehow.

In addition, your theory doesn't easily explain the two rows of data at 13:30.3 and 13:30.7. Despite, as above, taking four seconds to get to a measly 8.7psi, in those two rows we are expected to believe that the manifold relative pressure more than doubled in 0.4 of a second, despite the log indicating that the throttle has been shut - corroborated by the drop in mass airflow voltage indicating a reduction in intake to idle levels (albeit that the boost duty remains at 81% for that. That bit's really weird, although may be explained by the custom map.

Agreed. Certainly worth looking and trying to rule in/out as many possible explanations as possible.

The MRP parameter in the select monitor effectively is a boost gauge, albeit one that relies on what the MAP sensor is telling the ECU.

Simonds1, some more logs, with the O2 sensor connected, both of a normal/good acceleration run from around 2200rpm up to mid 4500's (genuine WOT ) for comparison, and another genuine WOT run when it's acting up, would be very handy.

Also (and apologies for the brain fade if we've done this before), do you have a standard or aftermarket dumpvalve, and when Bob mapped it, did you ask him to add some overt "pops and bangs" on lift-off?

tjmatt

iTrader: (1)

Splitpin I agree with everything above but will point out that the logs that I've taken before can be a little misleading. I have often seen spurious zeros or meaningless data and also noticed that some values appear to be correct but for the iteration before (or after). Basically the update rate isn't all that fast and it its also possible the CPU is actually quite busy and doesn't update the values that are acquired over OBD that often either (or at least not all at the same time) therefore its possible to get some updated data and some delayed.

Also of note: if you do not have a valve bleeding air out of the waste gate actuator pipe then the wastegate will start to open before the 7psi set point and slow the spool - but I agree it should probably be much faster than it was.

The same principle applies to closed loop boost control where the controller will go to near 100% duty cycle right up until the last point it can before reducing it to prevent overshoot. This means the wastegate it shut for the entire spool. Therefore if you don't have it bleeding any air at all (pipe blocked, wires dodgy) it will slow the spool.

Comparing the two logs at about 2800 rpm however shows something interesting - the first has a small amount of boost but that would only push it to a richer part of the map, but actually has a lower injector duty than the second log. This could again be down to issue with the update speed of the data being returned (esp as result 2 was second gear and values change fast)

The best thing it to try and get result in 4th gear - you'll get lots more (hopefully meaningful) data. Bit harder to find good road conditions though...

Splitpin

We're getting off-topic and into discussion of the way ECUs actually work here but the explanation you offer above does not apply in this case. It's not possible for the CPU to be "too busy" to update the diagnostic data, because the source for the diagnostic data is in the same areas of RAM (and updated at the same time as) the values the ECU actually uses to control the engine. It's not like there's a separate piece of code that goes around copying off numbers and sending them to the data port, and can be de-prioritised if the CPU is too "busy". Not on this ECU anyway.

That might be the case on some of the newage ECUs running in OBD2 mode but it does not apply to the 99-00 JECS, which communicate in native select monitor mode only. SSM data requests are pulled direct from the current values in the microcontroller's RAM and the entire outgoing datagram is a snapshot of the data correct at that point in time. It is not possible for one packet to contain information that was "delayed" from some point in the past, it simply cannot happen.

As I've said previously it is possible to miss transient changes in value "between" samples (especially on that 0.4 second refresh rate), but having a row of a datalog which contains a mix of current values and "delayed" ones is not possible on a JECS.

If there are errors in Simond's log data, the only point at which they could creep in is if ECU Explorer is introducing them, although given how simple the software is - it gets one packet of data, displays (and logs it) and goes back to get another, it's difficult to see how a delay of this kind can creep in at the PC end. About the only explanation for duff figures would be if the software is very intolerant to communication errors of the sort caused by electrical interference in the diagnostic signal line, the USB-serial port not being tied properly to the JECS ECUs non-standard serial timing or so-on. Under those circumstances though you'd expect it to display obviously garbled info rather than errors too subtle to immediately notice, Even then you'd expect the software to disregard any packet with a checksum error.

As you say, more log data would be very illustrative here.

simonds1

Lol Yeah I'm sorry for not being sure about how far down my foot actually was, I understand that that makes an almost impossible problem seem even more impossible for you guys to try and help me with! Have just been out and logged some more data (with lambda sensor connected back up) and this time I am 125% sure that I was fully on the throttle whenever I say I was

Here's a link to the log file, same mailbigfile thing as before so will only be available to download for 5 days or so.....

http://mbf.me/6hgt

The refresh time was hovering around 196ms, and also I had chosen the "convert injector pulse width to duty%" option because I'm sure someone mentioned that before? I'm sorry if that causes problems with comparing & contrasting to my first logs, as I didn't have that option on then.

So here's a rough explanation of what was happening and when......

39:44.1 - Really really brief uphill 2nd gear full throttle accelerate. Car went well and seemed pretty normal.

42:25.6 - Uphill full throttle accelerate in 3rd. Car went well and seemed pretty normal again.

45:22.6 - Level ground, really really brief full throttle accelerate in 4th. Car seemed to start picking up good and normal but then I had to let off.

47:44.7 - Uphill full throttle accelerate in 2nd gear and the car was RUBBISH! Barely moved, not boosting, caught in the act thank god! Was thinking it wasn't gonna faulter on this journey cuz it'd seemed good up until now.

51:42.6 - Just incase any of you notice my revs seeming a bit odd around this time, it was me trying a full throttle accelerate on a flat bit of road in 4th, and my clutch slipped lol.

52:02.4 - Level ground, full throttle accelerate in 3rd, and the car seemed okay to me. It definitely didn't do it's 'fault', but it also didn't seem to go as well as it could've done. I dunno, it's so hard to tell whether the car is actually slower than it's meant to be or not, because I might just be getting used to the power, or it might actually have faultered in some way. I don't know! Just generally doesn't seem as quick as it should be, even when it 'succesfully' accelerates now. But maybe that is just down to me being used to the power.

57:27.7 - Level ground, 3rd gear full throttle, then into 4th full throttle accelerate. Car seemed good and went well.

58:13.2 - Level ground, quite brief 3rd gear full throttle accelerate. Car went well and seemed normal.

58:50.7 - Level ground, quite brief 4th gear full throttle accelerate (no clutch slip this time!). Car seemed good and went well.

00:30.9 - Uphill, full throttle accelerate in 3rd gear. Car seemed good and went well.


That's all of the 'important' parts I noted down to mention. Everything else is just boring driving around in between the accelerating bits. So it only really faultered once on the whole journey, whereas the last log I did - same journey & same accelerating points, it faultered 3 times! I hate intermittent faults!!! Grr! Oh, by the way... even though the times I've noted down there are very specific, they are only to give you a rough idea of where to look in the log if y'know what I mean? But yeah I'm sure you can work that out by looking at them. I hope they help anyway.

Well, I had a standard dumpvalve when Bob remapped the car back in March 2009, but around August time it started to develop a problem where rather than accelerating when I put my foot down, it would just sound like I was driving a massive aerosol can around. Wooooossssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh of loads of escaping air, but no acceleration. I checked all my pipes and decided they were good, and decided that the dumpvalve must be the problem. So I decided to get myself a 'Forge Motorsport FMDVV5013C Piston Re-circulating' dumpvalve. I fitted that in August 2009 and that solved the problem lovely! Standard dump valve spring was SO easy to press in with my finger when I had it off the car, whereas I could nearly stand on the forge one without moving it. So I assume my standard one had just worn out from old age or something. Anyway, I'm waffling now sorry!

Wires all look fine to me, as do all the vaccuum pipes around that area. I am only the second owner of this car, the person before me hadn't touched it at all in regards to changing it from standard, so I'm sure no aftermarket boost controller has been fitted. Bob did 'modify' some of the boost pipework when he remapped the car. He said it would enable it to hold the boost better. Don't really know in detail what he did. Don't know at all infact!

On the subject of boost pipework, do you think it's a good idea for me to buy some samco vaccuum tubing and replace all my vaccuum hoses just incase one of them is at fault? Or do you think that's overkill?

Couldn't agree more! I'm still quite amazed at how willing people that I don't even know are willing to help me with this problem! It really is awesome, and like dnc said, it's what these forums are all about. So yeah, massive thanks again everyone. I think that's everything for now? I look forward to your responses!

simonds1

Forgot to respond to this bit before, and wanted to confirm that I have had NO Check Engine Light on at any time during all of this

tjmatt

iTrader: (1)

Off topic but it IS possible to have some non-updated data if the UART buffer is small. The reason is that the UART will be on a very low interrupt priority, and other tasks won't be and can take priority. You will notice if you do a lot of logging that the log update rate reduces as the engine speed/load increases. Why would that happen if the MCU wasn't busy doing other things (like detecting more and more crank and cam sensor zero crossings).


It does however from that log still (to me) look like the boost control solenoid is not working at the points at which you have issues and you are just seeing actuator boost. I would definitely check the wires that run to the solenoid, as well as check that the two pipes either side of the solenoid run free without being pinched by anything if the engine is rocking.

Splitpin

Matt, you're talking generalisations. I know how these ECUs work, at hardware/code level, and what you're saying doesn't apply here.

I do a hell of a lot of logging and notice no such thing.

It doesn't happen. SSM command response is totally consistent irrespective of engine running conditions. As you say this is off-topic so will go to pm. Simonds, thanks for the second log, will have a proper look at it later.

simonds1

No worries, thankyou for helping me with all this! I still haven't heard back from Bob I was hoping he'd email me back like "yeah, I know exactly what's wrong!", but I'm starting to think this is gonna be a pretty un-solveable problem without a lot of trial & error of me replacing things. At least we can narrow down the things for me to try replacing I spoze. Ah well, see if anyone comes up with anything!

simonds1

Hey guys, just trying to keep this going. I've just been out and done another log () and I think I've noticed a pattern. I've just been back over all my previous logs to check, and the pattern is pretty much true in all of those aswell. In the sections of the logs when the car is suffering from the non-accelerating problem, the ignition timing is always about double what it is in the sections when the car is accelerating successfully. Forgive me if I'm pointing out something blindingly obvious or irrelevant here, as I really don't understand enough about what I'm actually looking at.......but does that mean anything to anyone? Seems odd to me?

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Splitpin, over to you......

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Have you sorted that pinched vacuum pipe - can't immediately see from above that you have?

simonds1

Yes tim, I have sorted that. Didn't make any difference at all I'm afraid

c_maguire

The BTDC readings for the ignition timing are a symptom of your problem rather than a cause. I have an MY00 UK car same as you with virtually identical mods plus ported headers and a VF30 turbo, and have used ecuExplorer as a diagnostic tool for a long time.
From the first 2 logs you posted (not ideal as has been mentioned because you needed to be in 3rd or 4th gear for both from a similar start speed then WOT) it appears to me that your problem is a lack of boost pressure.
Before investigating this in more detail you should flush through your two-port boost solenoid with petrol or carb/brake cleaner to see if things improve. If not then you can move on to check the cracking pressure on the wastegate actuator and of course remove the small lengths of boost piping between turbo nipple and wastegate (t-piece in middle and also the brass restrictor pill in the turbo to t-piece section) to check for damage and that the pipework is clean inside (can get oil contaminated).
Don't buy any of that crap Samco 3mm vacuum tubing because it is just silicon tube and therefore doesn't retain its shape under pressure or vacuum.

Kevin

simonds1

Thankyou for that c_maguire allthough I think I'm gonna need a bit of help in regards to doing that! I know it's very annoying when someone asks a question that's already been asked about 1,000,000 times on here without bothering to search for the answer first.....but......I am either incapable of using the search function on here properly......or.....it is useless! More than likely the problem is me, but anyway, I have found a few articles on cleaning the boost solenoid but none of them give clear enough instruction and I believe if I try and do it on what I've read so far, I am gonna bugger something right up! I've read things so far such as "is the boost solenoid the one with 'Denso' written on it?" and someone's answered "yeah that's the boy!" and then I go out now to look at mine and there are three things there, all saying 'Denso' on them lol......so yeah that helped! Also found another article saying to take the top pipe off etc......but as you can see from the photo I've taken below, none of the pipes go to the top of any of those Denso things?! So yeah I am quite confused and would hugely appreciate a bit of help as to what exactly I have got to do plleeeaaassseee

I suppose a good start point would be to find out which one is actually the boost solenoid (A, B, or C below), and which pipes I have to spray in or take off etc?.......



Thanks very much in advance guys! Appologies that I am so stupid

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

A - 2-port Boost Control Solenoid
B - MAP sensor (looks after market, like a Apexi one)
C - Pressure Exchange Solenoid

...I think! lol