scooby L

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the hatch the 1st STI to be quicker than it's Evo rival...

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Oh dear, this is getting desperate.

Yes it may have beem marginally quicker than some Evo variant round one specific track or whatever, but the fact remains that in 1999/2000 the Impreza was universally hailed as being way ahead of the competition in terms of value for money performance and ran away with every magazine review and reliability survey to boot.

Now I grant you the hatch is in many ways a better car than the classic, but the sad thing is the competition have caught up and gone beyond it in many respects.

It isn't put together as well as the classic was and suffers from the usual cost cutting exercises applied to most growing businesses as did the blob and the hawk.

Also Subaru were so desperate to shed the rally rep/asbo image they forgot to target the car into any other specific demographic or even niche so you have a vehicle that has no identity or clearly defined market.

It is also (to most) in many ways a dog's dinner styling wise and that does not help it.

Stickymicky's post kind of nails it on the head actually.

SPEN555

I think if it's a Saloon, Estate, Hatch, Two Door Supercar it's volumes are gonna be woeful. Compared to circa 1996-2000 the market has changed massively. We have a recession, fuel much more expensive, Car Tax through the roof for high emission cars, competitors offering better packages. Everything is going the wrong way for them at the moment.

They need to bring out a much more efficient transmission to compete with the competition or look ahead and try differentiate themselves by bringing out a hybrid that offers market beating performance, price, economy and of course reliability.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

I went to the joint Subaru/CVC Dealer as the other arf' wanted to change her Sirion. Daihatsu UK (run by IM) have no stock of new cars! They cannot get any and are unlikely to as the quote was "Daihatus may pull from the UK until the yen improves"?

Don't forget that the US/Canada Sales are for cars built there so no worries about the currency fluctuations.

Sticky Mickey. I have owned a Forester and a Legacy. The Legacy was by far the best quality Subaru I have ever owned and I would put against an AUDI/BMW/VW any day of the week.

scooby L

Your post outlined Subaru already had the right Impreza that did it all... I was pointing out they did not..

Desperate? Not at all..., vertually every thread on scoobynet you turn into "it's the hatches fault" argument.... same old same old.. I'd suggest it is you who is desperate... trying to justify your hatred of a great car to anyone who will listen.

I've pointed out Subaru sales are up worldwide, yet you still think "us" as a country has this huge influence on IM's marketing.... ha ha comical

I owned a 2000 classic and if you think it was better made than a 2008 STI then you are truely disllusional.

They couldn't build a 1999-2000 car now... why? becasue it aint safe enough........period...safety=weight, weight=lower performance without more power..more power=tougher emmisions....tougher emmisions=higher costs for Subaru and also new owners...higher costs in a ressession=people not buying.. is any of this sinking in? I can break it down into single syllables if you want.

I'm sorry you're so blinkered about your wonderful car..I really am... but I know what I'd rather be driving, and safe in the knowledge I'm driving the best built Impreza ever.
You keep with your classic mate and I hope you don't run into anything harder than a marshmellow and still know who you are ...

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

What a very sad and bitter reply.

Which bit of 'Now I grant you the hatch is in many ways a better car than the classic' did you not understand and you have the nerve to try and have a cheap pop at my intelligence. People in glass houses and all that!!! Oh and I can actually spell truly and delusional as well even with my obviously limited intelligence

Several times I pointed out I was only talking about the UK market, another fact you seem to have missed.

Anyway leaving your vitriolic diatribe behind answer me one question then.

Why have Subaru's UK sales declined by roughly double the average since the introduction of the hatch?

P.S. If i die in my 10 year old bag of crap I will make sure to leave a note in my will to get a mate to post on here so you can have a laugh and say I told you so!!! Happy now you saddo!

scooby L

I'm sorry my spelling is not up to scratch... obviously I'm now not alowed an opinion? I'll try harder.. (and stop being patronising)

"what a sad and bitter replay" no..trying to point out how blinkered and repetative your posts are...

"Why have Subaru's UK sales declined by roughly double the average since the introduction of the hatch"
I've answered this one, many times... each time you still blame it squarley on the hatch...so have it your way, when IM go under I'll post a note on here saying "well done F1, why didn't IM or any of us listen to you" ha ha ha.. you are so funny....


I didn't wish death on you F1, stop throwing your toys out the pram... god forbid I slate a classic!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Me patronising? You have a cheap pop at my intelligence with the one syllable comment and then spell like a retard. Not my fault is it?

As for the rest of your post why not just answer my question eh?

scooby L

see above

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes, I see a post where you avoid answering the question by saying you have answered it many times.

Let's pretend I am as dumb as you allude to me being and I can't remember your answer because actually right now I can't

The question is simple and here it is again:

Why in your opinion have Subaru's UK sales declined by roughly double the market average since the introduction of the hatch?

Cut all the clever retorts etc. and just answer that one question.

scooby L

see above ( you don't have to scroll far )

StickyMicky

Fair play fella, but why do most people seam to choose AUDI/BMW/VW instead then?

It may well be the best quality Subaru going, but it still is getting its *** whooped by the competition.

For example, today has been a slow day at the car wash, we have done 1 bmw, 3 audis and a merc, i know of 2 weekly regulars that have a legacy, one an old model big subaru stickers on the back window *shudders* and an old bloke with a new shape one.

I would estimate the regular audi a4/a5drivers at about 80/week and the bmw 3 series drivers at around 150/week
Not worth me mentioning the VW lot as we get a LOT.


I could sit and look out the office window at the cars driving by, and get the same results, the facts are that apart from the impreza, you don't see many subarus at all.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

More fool them then I've owned 3 Imprezas to date & would happily own many more if they carried on with their original performance car ambition. I'm confident that there will always be demand for performance cars in whatever guise that takes in the future + let's not forget the halo effect ...

TX.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Pretty good chance that you'll continue to see very few of them for some time yet!

TX.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Me being a Legacy fan can quite easily say the Legacy has always been the best car Subaru have always made. Its a crying shame I.M don't exploit it properly by offering sensibly priced models and importing the turbocharged versions - this would give a mature alternative to folks who have grown out of the Impreza and its increased ugly/tackyness from MY00 onwards (even if the MY03 onwards are technically much superior).

Like you say, there are plenty of reasons why they aren't a success, quite obvious IMO

- Subaru, especially the Legacy doesn't have brand recognition like BMW, Merc and VAG. Badge snobs will dismiss the car as a rally wannabe's car (true to an extent ).

- UK variant Legacys are overpriced compared to the competition

- Lack of competing options; The H6 isn't powerful or fast enough to be the "top line" car. The diesel whilst economical is still behind in performance. As such neither variants can compete with a 5 series or A4/S4.

The only thing it has is AWD; which VAG have, and BMW could, if they wanted to import their ix AWD versions of the 3/5 series.


To me, I.M smarts of Rover in the mid-late 90s. They developed their new Metro replacement; The Rover 200/25, a Corsa/Fiesta sized car. What did they do? They got greedy, and priced it ABOVE that of a Focus or Astra; both larger and better specced cars (read here: Rover 200/25 / MG ZR development story ). In 1996 a 216SLi with the options cost over £16K OTR, (I know because thats what my grandad paid for it!). No wonder they had airfields full of them.

I feel I.M are doing the same thing, thinking its cars are "premium market" vehicles and pricing them as such, when really they are beneath that level, they need to be much cheaper.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nope, nowhere above do you answer the question. Oh well, no surprise really as we both know that woeful sales of the new Impreza are the reason.

scooby L

So true

Again, spot on,

Bingo, and now the Yen is so strong they cannot even give the same discounts offered by other marques.

Subaru's also have higher running costs, don't ask me why, they just do. The combined depreciation and running copsts over 2 years made both my Spec B and my STI more expensive to keep than my Porsche Cayman for the same period, putting off most "business customers" as a viable company car option.

Hatch sales are crap yes... but not the main reason Subaru UK are doing so bad. It's the marque as a whole that is currently flawed from top to bottom... From marketing to the product, from ecconomics to image.

StickyMicky

Glad you mentioned that as i have been feeling the same, i can remember mentioning that i thought the brand would crash and burn, waaaaay back when exwebclown was telling us he was selling SN, and i felt i knew why, (because subaru was going to go **** up anyway lol)

You go on something like Xpower forums now, and you see the remains of a true crash and burn, long term MG specialists shutting up shop as the scene is dead, the privateer race drivers unable to find funding because nobody is arsed about seeing an MG on the grid.

Subaru appears to be going the same way, some Subaru specialists have also appeared to take a step back and cast the nets a little wider then one brand, it makes sense..

StanS

iTrader: (3)

Subaru are relatively small fry in term of car sales compared to Audi/VW, Merc, BMW, Ford so a niche market. I don't think they are (20 years on) seriously trying to compete in those bulk markets (rep mobiles, etc). So sadly in a recession, they are going to get hit, but fortunately have other strings to their corporate bows.
Scooby owners buy scoobs because they accept the fact that there is no such car as a perfect car - every car is a compromise. Back in the late 60's and 70's I was into Lotus and owned 5 in that period. Bits fell off on a weekly basis and maintenance was on going but you accepted that as a Lotus owner. You also accepted (as with the Impreza nowadays) that there were few better "drivers cars" on the road when they were going well - pulling over 1g sideways on 4.5 J rims, and 0-60 in 6s (in std trim), which was quick in those days !!
Trying to compare cars in terms of bulk/niche market aims is always tricky. I hope Impreza stay aimed at the enthusiastic or motorsport orientated driver. I am also delighted with the Hatch, which imho is much improved on the 98 I owned for 8 years.

SPG

Whilst sales of the WRX Hatch may be down, sales of the n/a 1.5 and 2.0 are good, with the 2.0 currently out of stock! Is the Hatch such a failure then?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well the sales figures would say it hasn't been great in the UK and let's face it you hardly see any. It isnt difficult to be out of stock of something if you don't import any btw!!

SPG

But they are importing them? May delivery.

With the recession of course sales will be down, but things are on the up for Subaru as a brand in the UK. Brand awareness is much greater for their models than it was, during the recent snow for instance, brochure requests went up by something like 45% so i'm told.

Worldwide Subaru sales are massivly up, it's the UK that struggles, I put this mainly down to fuel costs, rfl and the pressure to buy 'green' etc. Plus the fact it never ceases to amaze me that there are people out there that have never heard of Subaru, and some of the ones that have just think they sell 'boy racer's cars'.

I do not believe its to do with Subaru selling 'plasticy' horrible looking cars.

The new Legacy and Outback are fantastic cars, quality and design in my view is excellent and certainly deserves it's place competing with the likes of Audi etc

Time will tell of course, but the future looks good for Subaru with some exciting new models and hybrid engines to arrive in the next couple of years

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Now that is what I call spin - how long have you worked for IM?

45% brochure request increase, maybe they should start charging for the brochures

SPG

Don't work for I.M, just love Subaru!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

So did I, which is why it is so sad to see them ***** up their UK market by alienating a large proportion of their customers who put them where they were in 2007 and trying to go after a whole new market with a car that overall is just not as good as its competitors.

Never mind, life goes on

EdwardH

Stateside and in Canada, Subaru has a very different brand image; you know, outdoors, family orientated, utility vehicle etc. The cars are more mainstream there.

Clearly in the UK , IM have tried to play down the street racer image and reposition themselves; I can't say whether this has been successful although media reception of the more mainstream models has been poor.

I'd say the new hatch based cars are pretty rare and STI's are like hen's teeth. So in many ways it is beginning to feel like Subaru in the UK is heading back to where it was in the hay days, of 96-01.

I had a PPP Impreza Turbo back in 00 and 01, and it was a fantastic car. I've had a blob eye WRX wagon for the last 4 years and that has been great too, although not as rewarding as my first.

If I'm honest I've always loved big wings and gold wheels but as I am forty this year then something a little lower key suits me; a new WRX-s or STI sounds good.

My point I guess, is that Scoobies are still great cars, but I think Subaru has got it's packaging wrong in the UK too often, to be truly mainstream.

renny

iTrader: (2)

You don't like the hatch then?

billythekid

As much as it pains me to say (long story) on the whole, around the world, Subaru are doing quite well in recent months.

Lots of countries have new car sales drives on (i.e £2k scrap in here) and Subaru is doing ok.

Toyota have lost a lot of sales in the last 3 months, and a lot of them have gone to Subaru.

I cant tell you what the situation is with IM though... they are a LTD so its not as easy to get the full picture. I doubt they are having an easy time though - any company that relies on importing its product at the moment will be having a hard time..

Andy Murdoch

Success in Motorsport sells cars - fact. Ford's heavy investment in the Focus rally programme proves the result. I'm sure if the Impreza hatch was competititive Subaru wouldn't have pulled the plug so quickly.

Let's face it the Scooby hatch is no better looking than a Rover 200. If I wanted to convert to a hot hatch my hard earned would be handing over for a RS.

I assume Subaru still want to charge you £2K for replacement set of wheels and tyres as the std 17" are lost in the bodyshell. The RS has 19" std rims which look so much better out of the box. The RS also has lower emissions so road tax won't be the annual rip off that Subaru ownership is going to cost. I live near S&S who are apparently the top sales in the UK but I can honestly say I hardly ever see a Impreza hatch on the road.

It will be interesting to see how long they persist with this model. I certainly wouldn't buy one.

John Hughes

Again it's down to opinions, and whether your allowed to express them without insults flying. You and a few like you on this site don't like it when someone has the audacity to disagree with your hatch hating stance. I can think of very few reasons why you could hate a car and it's drivers so much, but carry on if your blood pressure can stand it. One thing does niggle me though, and I've posted asking for an explanation before, do you really think that anyone who bought the Subaru hatch did so without testing the opposition? For me 6 cars tested – outright winner by a country mile the hatch Impreza STi. So who knows about the hatch and it's competitors?

By the way still loving it, and I will be buying another car (new) in about 8 months, and at the moment it looks like it will be another STi hatch. Life does go on.