SunnySideUp

There are a few statements made which concern me somewhat ...

1. Removal of CATs ... isn't this illegal? How do they pass the MOT?

2. No Warranty offered on re-maps, at £650+ I would want a copper bottomed guarantee! Why no warranty?

3. Re-maps are customised to the car at a particular state of tune at a particular point in time. As time passes we know that things change with the vehicle - if the custom map is so tight to that car then it would need tweaking as the car ages .... if it isn't changed then it could do a lot of damage.

Just to be clear with what is being said ... the standard map is loose, generic and covers all events.

The re-map is customised to that car, it is tight, non generic and cannot cope with all events.

Therefore, as it is so customised, when the car ages the fueling will be wrong - maybe too lean and will blow your engine or hole a piston ........ the standard generic map, being so general, can cope with the ageing process very well.

This is why the standard map is so much better - the reasons stated for it being poor (it's ability to cope with all situations) is actually a massive benefit when the car gets older ..... the customised map will start failing as it was mapped so tight years previously.

Time bomb .....

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

I'm bored now

ZEN Performance

You would have to take that up with the people that do it. The law now states that a replacement cat has to be EU marked, but it doesn't say about removing the cat altogether.

What exactly would the warranty cover? All remaps from reputable companies are in effect warranty covered by law and your statutary rights. However if you remap the car, then kill the engine through overheating the oil on track because you didn't upgrade the car to suit the new power level and your intended purpose, I think any mapper would laugh at a warranty claim. If you paticular worried about the warranty, ask your mapped, get a factory approved/developed remap (like the PPP), or don't bother and buy a faster car in the first place.

Those are your words not mine, publishing them on the internet doesn't make it fact. Besides I thought just a a day ago you were telling us all how cars were so consistent. Anyway, cars do change over time, but most of these changes are taken car of by the strategies in the standard ECU anyway. The biggest single thing that seems to affect the mapping is a build up of carbon on the piston crowns. The best way to avoid that is to not run it as stupidly rich as subaru do (to keep the heat down with all the cats and restrictive exhaust). By making physical changes to serious reduce the carbon buildup, this side of things (which affects mainly the ignition requirements) is taken care of. However some cars do change noticable over time, especially those with new uprated engines, typically people do spend time and money to have things tweaked over time, although modern aftermarket ECUs and the latest OE ecus have most of this well covered from the start with the learning functions you often write about.[/quote]

Your words not mine. A remap that doesn't cover most events isn't a good remap, and on the later ECUs you can cover pretty much all events with the additional sensors that are present.

With a cheap generic reflash this could be the case, but not because the map or running conditions change over time, but because it's crap in the first place.

If the fuelling is changing significantly over time, then fix the problem rather than work round it. I see little sense in having the car running less than ideal for 75% of it's life only to have it work "okay" for the last 25%.

The P1 (a UK car) is a classic example of a car that does suffer like you describe if the MAF sensor degrades or breaks (because of the poor design). Did subaru make a mistake with the map on this?

Perhaps that's just down to your opinion, and I guess you're happy with your standard car. If you're content to waste your time here because you don't agree with what other people want to do with their car, that's your problem, but plenty of people get more enjoyment from their car for tens of thousands of miles doing exactly what you say is foolish, just for the sake of winding them up!

scooby L

It Stops him barking at the neighbours dog though

Mark'sWRX

Why has nobody mentioned that Powerstation include a 'Comprehensive Warranty' on their remap and upgrade packages. SSU keeps asking why nobody guarantees their mapping. Well they do!

Had to laugh at the, 'Why don't Subaru remap the cars to do 50mpg?' question, Pete.

You know very well that most have experienced a few % improvement from a remap, not 100%!

Anyway, I think Pavlo has put this discussion to bed, now.

porteouz

iTrader: (1)

Rearange this common phrase.... a broken record like

scooby L

I've got one too

bull rag time red to a

ZEN Performance

Hopefully Pete will have had enough time in between designing missiles and darning his flat cap to google up some info on what he's been so doggedly arguing about to cut'n'paste into a knowledgeable reply about fuelling beyond a basic definitely of what AFR and lambda are.

allza

I fail to see how you, ssu, cannot realise how a car be more powerful and more fuel efficent too. Subaru's run overly rich off boost and part boost hence using more fuel than required to do so. Why? Well thats because it cools temperatures inside the cylinders and helps prevent pre ignition. This then means the engine is safe no matter how it is driven and allows room for poor fuel. However when using better fuel you can use a better ratio afr which is leaner and also more ideal for power at that application. At full throttle it will most probably run leaner than before too but with more boost than before it will be also using more fuel than before. However this is pretty irrelevant to people when they say that their mpg has improved because obviously they wont be driving around at full boost everywhere. You only need the extra fuel pump capacity as it will use more fuel at WOT but in normal driving and most of the time it will use less. Also a higher flowing fuel pump will create constant pressure no matter what the fuel demand is as it can supply more than the engine can consume, which cant be said for standard pumps and so could risk running too lean.

SunnySideUp

At last!! Someone stating that a warranty is supplied with a remap and upgrade package!! That's where my money would go - they clearly have 100% confidence in their map - brilliant stuff

Regarding the very first issue on the thread ... the mpg % increase ... which I still maintain is a myth - but either way - let's assume a claim of 10% increase ... on a car doing 20 mpg - thats 2 mpg!!!

I'd like to see the person who can prove that 2 mpg increase to me!! 2 mpg!! ha ha ha - even I, with my superior intelligence, would have great difficulty trying to prove a +2 or a -2 mpg change .... to claim that anyone can is the stuff of legends (but we are on SN, so anything can happen!)

k-kustom

iTrader: (4)

Youve got some READING to do fella..^


Lol.. This thread has made it to a few other websites now..

SunnySideUp:

You are So FLAWED in these arguments and pretty much everything else you have said, its beyond a reasoned discussion, and become Borderline Hilarious..

Trolling and Flaming in these ways just winds respectable tuners up, and confuses lesser informed enthusiasts..

You are so wong in your 'intelligent' arguments... HA HA HA

Much fun

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Since when has being wrong stopped Pete from arguing?

If everyone just accepts that the opposite of what Pete says is true is true then there shouldnt be any confusion

SunnySideUp

And the vested interests can still mop up on others ignorance

SunnySideUp

I've always been an internet legend .... glad that I have a wider audience.

IB must be laughing - all this attention can only be good for the advertisers!

SunnySideUp

Tuners and mappers are like the Church ... they always have 'reasons' to suit the argument.

It is stated that the re-map is specific to one car, in one state of tune at one point in time - a 'custom' map - hence the very high price.

By definition this re-map will gradually become 'wrong' as the engine ages/changes tune - possibly with disastrous results. Unlike Subaru, the mappers do not (generally) issue free updates.

As has been stated, the Subaru standard map is no good as it has to work for granny as well as a rally wannabbee, it also has to alllow the engine to run on V Power and also Camel pi55.

It is so loose/generic that it is superb at adapting to changes (like the engine getting older) - unlike the specific custom map.

However, if we are now seeing that the claims are being voiced that the Custom map is also very adaptive and variable .... then, it too, is generic and not customised to a particular car at all .... of course, this would be a bit inconvenient to disclose.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

My god you really are clutching at straws.

Do some reading Pete as suggested by Paul, there is a vast amount you can learn. Try and read up on what the most power efficient AFR is and then do some research as to what AFR's subaru genius factory mappers set their maps at and do the maths to work out how much petrol is getting wasted down the exhaust pipe. If just half of that wasted fuel is turned into power then the car will not only perform better but it will be running more efficiently and economically if the other half was 'saved'.

Facts have never been your strong point have they ?

SunnySideUp

Why would Subaru waste petrol down the exhaust pipe??

The last time I had petrol running out of the cylinders due to a mis-fire I blew the CAT apart ........

I wonder what my Subaru has that stops my CATS being blown apart? What with all this neat petrol being wasted ....

No smell of fuel either ... funny - seems mine is burning every last drop that my map allows into the engine?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

The adaptive strategies are within the core ecu code. Whether it be a remapped car or a standard car it is capable of adapting.

However it can only adapt within a range of parameters.

The primary example is fueling.... the ecu code allows on a newage for around 25% fueling corrections either of the 'norm' (taking aside a further 15% that is also there in closed loop). This is to allow for environmental/weather conditions as well as other conditions that happen over a period of time such as weakening of fuel pumps, carb build up, air filters clogging and general wear and tear. These margins are not changed within a remap process, it just resets the 'norm' or baseline 0 correction figure to be for what that particular car is at that point of time. That car will then have a better and wider range of learning for future conditions than if it wasnt remapped.

It is common to see cars from the factory that are far from centred on that correction scale and subsequently have less room for adaptive strategies than a remapped car would have.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

its not being wasted down the exhaust pipe, it is being wasted in the cylinder.. the burn is not as efficent as it can be on the standard subaru maps.

As has been explained over and over the AFR can be run leaner than the standard subaru map which then burns more efficently giving more power.

I mapped a car last month to 658bhp.. the AFR is leaner than a standard subaru map.. it uses more fuel than a standard subaru on boost but the AIR to fuel ratio is leaner.. this car does 27mpg on a motorway cruise, but took two tanks of fuel to do 140laps of brandshatch.

Simon

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

If it was doing this, the engine would have exploded by now (or it would do if you revved it over 3000 rpm)

allza

Your car is definately wasting fuel. However it means it has an excessively large safety margin with regard to detonation and heat. As all the maps are generic they will have to map it to be safe under the worst tolerances and climate. However even remaps have knock control and allow for any changes that may happen over time.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Eh?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

lol - just read that back myself.

Heyho .. quoted now

SunnySideUp

Understand your first paragraph

The next paragragh presents a problem, doesn't it? Are you really saying that the ECU's are flashed uniquely to the car as they leave the production line? ie. do Subaru give each car a different map?

I would have thought, and have been led to believe, that Subaru flash the very same map on the cars rolling off the production line .... this is the main reason why re-maps are being sold (because the generic Standard map is no good).

Do they flash the same map? If so, you cannot see cars with different correction scale settings, can you? Obviously.

If they do not flash the same map, then what you are saying is that each car has its own custom map ........ which kind of defeats the whole 'generic' argument?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

They flash the same map but there are manufacturing tolerances in the build and in the thousands of individual components - these can combine to make some cars run better than others straight from the factory.

SunnySideUp

Where does this unburnt fuel go then?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

sorry I couldn't understand what you were getting at.

to be fair the standard subaru map is not wasting the fuel.. it is using it to cover a few bases.. being generic and not even tested they have no idea if a car is safe of not so make it rich to try and make sure and to cover themselves - someone using rubbish fuel and towing a caravan with it for example.

SunnySideUp

You said that you see some cars which are not centered on the correction scale ..... some are, some aren't.

If the map was the same, this error in the centering would be identical in every single car ..... and why it couldn't happen. Subaru would ensure the correction scale would be centered ... once done right it would stay right.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Not so much saying that the standard subaru map is no good (although the original hatch sti map could possibly be classed like that) but they can be summed up by Cheryl Cole - Weak, Limp and Lifeless

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

No Pete - you aren't following the important part. Every individual part has to be manufactured. Every time a part has been made there is a minute difference to the previous part or the intended part. There is a set of blue prints for all the parts and for the engines but there are also acceptable manufacturing tolerances for all these parts and indeed for the build process itself. If a part falls outside these tolerances it is binned but the very fact that there are tolerances does mean that every car has the potential to be unique.

The law of averages states that some will be just right on the scale but also some will be under the zero correction (if we are taking the fueling as an example) and some will be over.