andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

ring them up and do your research, thats where all the RUBISH comes from, and taking about rubish, you want to start practicing what you preach, continue using morrisons e85. is that the e85 that comes in 25ltr drums labled e85 that you put in your garage at ta oulton last year. sorry dunc i think you are the master of speaking rubish

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Andy - that was Zen's Sunoco E85 mate. Absolutely nothing to do with me and none has ever been used in my car. Speak to Paul.

p1prodrive

iTrader: (3)

Well they took it away from my local morrisons but thay just means i will have to travel further to the next morrisons..lol

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

here is a news report dated feb 28th this year.

February 28, 2010
Morrisons to withdraw biofuel from forecourts
Category: News — Post by: Tags: biodiesel, biofuel, morrisons, Petrol forecourts, petrol stations — redadmin @ 9:00 am
Supermarket chain Morrison’s have announced plans to withdraw the B30 biofuel from 144 of its forecourts. They will also stop selling E85 fuel.

A statement from the Morrison’s website confirms the removal of the fuel from forecourts, “We remain committed to making quality greener fuels available to our customers as part of our aim to help with cutting carbon. We continue to urge the government to re-think its decision on removing the fuel duty incentive, putting forward the case for sustained investment in the manufacture and supply of quality bio mix fuels.”

“We apologise for any inconvenience caused to those drivers who have been buying B30, who will now need to fuel up with standard diesel (which has up to 7 per cent bio content).”

It comes as a reaction to the withdrawal of the government subsidies for biofuels, meaning that the cost of biofuels will be set to rise. There is currently a 20p tax relief on B30 and other biofuels on the forecourts, but is to be removed in April.

Environmental groups urged the government to cut the annual spend of around £550million on biofuel subsidies as some of the fuels were harvested from crop where rain-forests had been obliterated to make room for the biofuel producing crops.

“Biofuels may reduce carbon emissions in transport, but it is critically important that they do not increase them elsewhere,” says a spokesman for the Environmental Transport Association (ETA)

Many cars are already able to run on B30, which is made from 50% recycled cooking oil and 50% British rapeseed oil. E85 is made from 85% ethanol and 15% petrol. However other biofuels are made abroad using ingredients such as palm oil, which while the emissions are safer to the planet, palm oil production caused the deforestation of great amounts of rain-forest. In places like Africa, where ownership of land is traditional with no legal red-tape and deeds to prove ownership, huge areas of land are being taken over for biofuel crops. This is destroying the livelihoods of local farms and villages.

Current European targets are aiming for at least 10% of fuels to be bio-fuels, but environmentalists are calling for a change given the imbalance of benefits and harm. Following this news the future of bio-fuels on UK forecourts remains in doubt.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I'm saying there is other ways than the need to strip your vehicle down and run 100% e85.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I missed that news item - thanks for that Andy. I will still use Morrisons E85 for as long as it is available and hopefully a change of government will see a review of the removal of the subsidy and common sense will prevail.

If they don't I will find an alternative supply of it or suitable alternative.

As for the environmentalists - perhaps they should look into where and how E85 is made. I can almost walk to the farms locally where the sugar beet is grown.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Steve - I am sorry but I disagree, to be competitive in club pro it will need power, lightness, handling, braking and to be driven well. The cars that topped the class last year had all three and were lots lighter than mine, had substantially more power than mine does now and were well driven.... but things move on.

An example is that Zen's old green car is in the same class. That sets the benchmark for the level of power/weight IMO but there are other examples in the same class. To get to the same power/weight I would need to be running 800bhp+ let alone the positive impact that weight saving has on braking and handling and overall circuit times. I cannot simply strap a big rotated turbo on and expect 800bhp reliably - it cant be done - and then to outbrake and out corner and out drive. Not gonna happen.

My car has had its use as a daily driver. i have done 73000 miles in it over the last 4 years. Nearly 18,000 since this time last year (and the same the year before). It is time to give it less mileage and more track/competition use and get a different daily driver instead.

I love the responsiveness and flexibility of the MD321V - it is quicker to 100mph than most higher power cars because of that as proven at the marham day. The fuel choice is a personal thing be it E85 or methanol or race fuel it really doesnt matter. It will deliver the same results.

I am in no hurry to succumb to the lure of rotated big power set ups that may not actually be quicker in the environment that is want to drive the car in.

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

ok sorry you just wound me up a bit with your approch

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Sorry back at ya - I didnt realise there was any truth behind the Morrisons rumour. A real shame but hopefully they will change their mind.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Nothing on Morrisons website about the withdrawl of E85

ZEN Performance

I dissagree with you Duncan on the 321v vs rotated setup. Like for like, ei 2.5 engine not 2.35, and AVCS not v5 heads, the latest GT35R turboed cars I've done or mapped have been a match for your car response wise with significantly greater power. That said there is a significant cost element, which is a serious concern for guys like you that dont have unlimited budgets (contrary to what some people seem to think!).

I will post the graphs later!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Are you talking about Clive's car Paul ?

ZEN Performance

No, that is a 2.35 without AVCS vs your larger 2.5 with AVCS so not a fair comparison if you want to look at response. This is a 2.5 with cosworth cams, ported heads, sleeved block, mahle pistons and solaris running on v-power making the same power as yours does on 100% e85 with a much wider power band.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Hmm. So with ported heads and cams and rotated turbo and pipework. Big financial outlay to end up with the same power admittedly on plain vpower.

It may well be a step I take at some point but no budget available for that

ZEN Performance

Don't be stupid duncan! I'll show yours on v-power too, which initially was about 495/8 hp IIRC. I'm sure yours would be more now on v-power, but I think the 35R setup with E85 on this car should be good for about 660hp, plus as you know it will pick up some improved spoolup. The biggest difference is the spread of the power, as you'll see shortly.

You will see that the Cosworth cams and big turbo do affect the torque in the midrange a little (after full boost is achieved), and I would expect to lose maybe 30ft-lb over milder cams at say 5000rpm, but the spread of torque is much better overall, and well worth it IMHO. I did look at your v-power graphs but they were rather poor in comparison, as at the time the keeping ahead of the stock ECU was proving difficult and the resulting graphs not so great, but peaks of around 490hp. I have ommitted the torque curves as they clutter the graph.

Red is the other car running 2.0bar, but with some boost control finesse required.
Green is the other car running around 1.9 bar with the boost control sorted.
Amber is your car running unknown boost, suspect around 1.8-1.9 bar.

ZEN Performance

BTW, the above is strictly to illustrate that sometimes additional power can be had for little or no loss of spool or response, and that there is a place for a rotated turbo setup in some cases.

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Paul, just your opinion.

How do you feel an externally gated rotated 3076R would compare to Duncans 321V?

The 35R graphs make for some interesting reading.

ZEN Performance

I don't want to be drawn on any conclusions, only things I have actually done, witnessed first hand or have results for.

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

i have just been over looking both my graph from last year and the three graphs you have posted up paul, it looks to me like the three graphs that you posted up have 500rpm better spool than my t04z and more power until 5000rpm they are all making better power than mine upto 5000 rpm then mine takes over, my graph was done on a 2.5, ported v5 heads kelford cams with a 0.82 housing. i presume that if mine had avcs at the time of the graph then this may of been a bit closer to the other 3 for spool. very nice graph paul
i still think 321v is the right turbo for that car at the moment, the only down side that i can see is that you have to ring its neck to get decent power from it at this level, i cant see duncan running 2.2 bar as it stated on the graph he posted, in timeattack, as i think the life of the motor would be drastically shortened.
andy h

ZEN Performance

Hi Andy,

Yes the AVCS can be good for about 500rpm of spoolup, but it does depend on the cams and turbo etc. The example I've shown I consider to be very good for the spec, I don't know what gear it was run in from memory but that will have an effect on the spool, I'm pretty sure it was 4th for both cars with duncan's being a longer 2006 4th ratio.

Important bits to know about comparison car.

2.5 Engine
Std intake manifold
Hyperflow monster FMIC
Non billet GT35R with ported shroud and 0.82 ex housing
GT-Spec 3 bolt headers
Solaris ECU
Cosworth cams, std size uprated valves, ported smallport AVCS sti heads.
3" exhaust with screamer pipe returned into downpipe.

Fai17

iTrader: (2)

Very interesting read Paul.

Thanks

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

thanks paul. looking at those graphs, you have defo got a point, the power band is so much greater on the rotated setup shown,

andy h

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Point taken on the power band Paul. Is it the boost or the revs that shorten the life of the engine ? As we both know it is a fine balance between power and reliability. Going back to stevebt's point, increasing power is less reliable than losing weight in my opinion as that surely only reduces stress on everything else.

Andy - I ran 2.4 bar peak at silverstone last year but most of the season was at around 2 bar.

ZEN Performance

Bit of both works the engine hard, especially if taken to extremes. But it might be possible to flow some more air and not tune the whole thing to within an inch of it's life, and get more power for no loss in reliability.

How many miles has your engine done since it's "temporary" rebuild?

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

I can't wait to get mine finished the ticks will be all in the right boxes.
Forged 2.5 - check
AVCS heads - Check
Cosworth Cams - Check
GT35R although mine will be front mounted - check
Solaris - Check

Should be very good to drive once finished and hopefully make some good numbers in all the right places.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Although my plans were shelved, I was going rotated over standard position (2.35ltr, AVCS, Solaris, GT30/35).

The comments by the likes of Paul about how rotated turbos make themselves known above 450bhp and proven results being the deciding factor: https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...ter-turbo.html

Daz: Am sure yours will be a monster

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I'm on about extreme stripping out which you appear to be doing. It can't be that important to strip every single thing out and if weight is that major why haven't you moved onto a carbon prop??

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Steve have you seen the cost of the carbon prop ?

If you have then that should answer the question

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Paul - my zengine has now done 13,000 miles since last June.

ZEN Performance

Not bad for a fixer-upper!