Splitpin

Hey, newbie. You assume wrong, in just about every possible way, so either read the thread before posting, or b*gg*r off.


Succinct enough for you Joz?

pdang

YOU insist that the Subaru ( Boxer) engine has a wet sump,the moment the "wet" sump is filled with new(4.5 liters) oil the crank/bearings are covered (THIS WOULD NOT LEAD TO INSTANT ENGINE FAILURE IN A MILLION YEARS),so why do you need to disconnect the crank sensor????Unless you cant think fer yourself and you want your buddies (fellow *********,who probably got me banned second time round),to back you up??? *** off *****!!

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

so youre saying that 2 engine builders are wrong and 2 experts in my opinion are wrong and you use the vocabulary like youve just done you should be banned now be a big boy and go and smoke some more dope tosser

pdang

2 engine builders????? AND "2 experts ????? Out of how many builders and experts????
As for vocabulary,the USUAL Hypocrisy,from this full of (dumb) **** website,and you wonder why its going down hill!!!! (bull**** to you, yer dumb ****!)
As I said I should be banned coz I dont agree with the " majority" tossers!

micaredwrx

iTrader: (3)

Splitpin

No they're not. I don't know where you got your ideas from but you clearly don't understand what wet and dry sump systems actually mean in practice. A wet sump simply means means that the oil returns directly to the sump and "lives" there.

In a dry sump application, the oil returning via gravity to the bottom of the engine is removed by a scavenge pump and stored in/recirculated from an external tank.

Wet sumping doesn't mean that the crank is bathed in oil, as you appear to believe. There probably aren't any car engines around that even splash the reciprocating parts, let alone anything more than that. Read back through the thread and all this will be explained to you nice and simply. The oil level on a normal Subaru engine is three to four inches below the axis of the crank, and there's a windage/baffle tray designed to prevent oil splashing directly back up.

Therefore, because your initial theory about the crank being bathed in oil is wrong, the conclusions you have drawn as a result are also incorrect.

If you stop and think about it, it would clearly be impossible for the Subaru engine to function properly with an engine oil level as high as you appear to believe is the case. If it was sufficiently full that the crank or rods were dipping in it, it'd cause fecking havoc once the engine was started and getting splashed everywhere - including into the cylinders behind the pistons.

Because the rotating/reciprocating parts of the engine are not, as you suggest, bathed in oil. The engine itself is, in entirety, above sump to the tune of a number of inches. Disconnecting the crank sensor therefore becomes advisable so that all the air in the oil system above the sump can be pumped out and oil flow re-established without the engine being under combustion loads.

Grief. Dude, I'd never heard of you prior to today so haven't a clue why you were banned last time, or indeed who was responsible. However, I could probably hazard a guess given that in two posts so far you have demonstrated a thorough misunderstanding of the subject you're posting about, made it obvious that you couldn't be bothered reading the earlier parts of the thread (within which you could have learned a lot), and have then made abundantly clear that you'd rather hiss and spit than discuss.

On that basis, I guess the rest of us should open up a sweep on how long it takes for your next ban to take effect. If you want to post on grown-up threads, it would be in your own interest to grow up, you might actually learn something. If you choose not to, well, by the sound of things you know where that leads, and presumably had to promise to be good before being allowed back.

The bottom line is that you're actually doing quite a good job of demonstrating some of the common misconceptions people have, so if you want to carry on in the same vein, go for it. If you don't learn from it, someone else will.

Hopper

Setright,
As far as I know I am running the standard fuel pump.
The car was ordered from new with the PPP and when I asked what it included I was told there were three things, a blue pipe from the turbo (think that's right) the exhaust box and a re-programmed engine management chip. There was never any mention of an uprated fuel pump.
Now you've got me all worried again . . . .

Setright

Sorry Hopper!!

Not trying to make you worry, quite the opposite. Please look into fitting an uprated fuel pump before you start caning your engine again.

Ask Prodrive if they really only sell those three things, and don't recommend/demand a fuel pump upgrade too. What I am getting at, is that you might still be able to make Subaru UK take responsibility if they omitted the pump, making your engine failure inevitable.

There is no doubt for me that fuel delivery is the root of your engine failure, it's common on Prodrive upgraded cars, where the uprated fuel pump corner has been cut.

No matter what else happens, get one of the reputable tuners on this website to fit a better fuel pump...fast

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

pdang, I'm not having a go, but quite apart from you thinking (catasrophically wrongly!) the Subaru has a dry sump, etc, etc, you've got muddled big style, as I expect you thought this talk of "wet" and "dry" cranking was to do with wet and dry sumps? That's not the case. As mentioned, if you had bothered to read through FIRST before your vitriolic posts, then you just... just... MAY have realised that the term "dry cranking", was when the fuel doesn't inject into the cylinders i.e. by isolating the crank and/or cam sensors - as abundantly explained numerous times within this thread.

Hopper

Setright,
Okay, I will look into it.
I will have a look on the site to read up on any threads relating to it also.
When I had the engine done at API, one of the things written about in the literature given by them mentions not caning the car unless there is at least a quarter tank of petrol in the tank.
I have been very careful to abide by that one since the rebuild. I now refill when it gets to a quarter tank in case I get 'involved' at any point and forget.
Apparently the engine can suck in a lot of air instead of petrol when the car is low on fuel.
I wonder whether the uprated pump would reduce the risk of this.
BTW looking on the Prodrive site there is no mention on there about a fuel pump being part of the package.
Are you sure you are not confusing my model with another?
Below is the link to the pack as fitted to my car.
http://www.prodrive.com/up/03MY%20WRX%20PPP.pdf

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Yes Hopper, we need to readjust our thinking that 1/4 full is now actually "E"

If you do find it below that, then don't let the "red mist" descend.

pdang

I did suggest the Subaru engine is dry sump! Read it again!!
As you clearly are a man of knowledge, in 999.999% (name one) of wet sumps the crankshaft (the wonky bit at the bottom of the engine) rotates/sits in a bath of (engine) oil.The reason dry sumps were invented was to reduce "drag" on the crankshaft as it rotated,thus increasing power,but not at the expense of reliability. .
The vast majority of engines produced, Ford,Vauxhall,Nissan,Toyota,Hino,Suzuki,Mitsubishi ,Scania, etc ( please correct me). are wet sumps.
This is the CHEAPEST way of producing reliability, however I clearly demonstrated this is NOT the way to obtain optimum power, motorbike engines or Flat engines,boxers, inc. Subaru and Porsche ( but maybe not the Ford 4 cyl. boxer of the 7o's).are dry sumps.But my arguement still stands, a dry sump engine has only a micro-coating of oil covering the crankshaft until the engine is continuously running,oil pressure does not build up any quicker because the crank sensor is disconnected!!Feel free to read MY threads *******!
As I said previously ******** like you (and yer mates) got me banned before.

pdang

Yeah, Splitpin has already agreed its a dry sump engine ( As I suggested in my first post, (if you can find someone to read it to you))!someone on this forum recently asked why politicians think were all dumb ****s?????

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

I think it's your powder kegg-like aggression that got you banned, TBH.

It's not about the oil film already present in between bearing and crank pin that's the issue. It's the fact that when you do an oil change you lose the "lock" and therefore when you refill, etc. you now have air sitting above the the level of oil in the sump. This air needs to be purged out of the system via the breathers... SLOWLY. That's why the crank sensor is removed/unplugged, as it allows the engine to spin on the starter only at around 150-200rpm rather than at initial cold start-up combustion speeds of c.1500rpm. If you do the latter, then the air could be driven out through that bearing surface taking some of that oil film with it... which could lead to metal-metal contact. That's the theory.

<<< It's all been written before.

pdang

FOR THE ILLITERATE IDIOTS, who cant read or think for themselves (congratulations your not alone)

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

lol dont waste your breathe

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Interesting thread, I am still trying to understand all the technical information mentioned here but if this was true there would hardly be any cars left on the road as others have said. I have seen this done by a Subaru specialist though and asked them what they are doing and explained the same reason as others here.

Does anyone know if Powerstation follow the same procedure as I am going there for some work soon.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

pdang, the Subaru sump like virtually all production car sumps IS a wet one! It doesn't, however, refer to the crank sitting "wet" in the oil! it simply means that the oil lives in the sump pan below the level of the crank, with a mechanical, engine-driven oil pump to distribute the oil.

A "dry sump" system is when the vehicle has a remote reservoir with the oil in and is actively pumped by an independent-to-the-engine outboard pump. The advantage of these is that you don't have the extra depth of a sump pan below the crank, so can't hit an obstruction in the road and cracking it, with catastrophic results. Plus it'll save weight, etc. This is why dry sump systems are typically found on competition and and seriously modded track/rally cars, etc.

Genuine outboard dry sump systems are an unnecessary "profit margin-hurting" expense for manufacturers (unless for "no-expense spared" super and hypercars, etc.)

Hopper

It does take some understanding mate, but take my advice and stick with the word of the experts, you can easily identify them on this (overlong) thread.

Regarding Powerstation or anywhere else that you entrust with your car, always ask what their procedure is and if it doesn't meet your requirements go elsewhere.

Otherwise tell them the way you want it done and wait there while they do it. That's what I will be doing in future, if not doing it myself.

This site is a mine of information and there are some truly helpful and considerate people posting on it.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

But by that reasoning, ALL sumps can be be regarded as, effectively, dry ones.

Technically, oil contained in a sump attached below the crank is referred to as a "wet sump" system. End of.

pdang

So after 5 days YOUR saying the engine still has oil pressure????The engine would need 2 valves, one at the bottom of the engine block (below the crank AND another below the cylinder head/s ( unless you think the cylinder head is perminantly pressurised??? After (less than)5 days the majority of engine oil will be below the crank, (in a dry sump engine,as I previously suggested) BTW oil pressure will build up faster at, 1500 rpm, than it will at 150-200rpm
So at the very least its as broad as it is long!!

pdang

Wot like my £3500 (NEW) Suzuki 400cc single cylinder motorbike. Betcha cant find a motorbike with a wet sump, no expense spared super somethin, eh? Ha,Ha!
P.s you have just confirmed stuff I've said, cheers dude

johnlogie

iTrader: (4)

Cars dont lean on there side going round corners, bikes do?

And u must be a girl if ur ridin a 400cc bike

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

That's right, bikes and serious modded/competition/supercars etc are invariably fitted with dry sumps, due to combatting the leaning (for bikes) and high cornering "g" issues... Super grippy, fast cars can suffer oil surge away from the pick-up pipe on regular wet sump systems.

pdang, to be fair I was referring to cars - so my comment was relevant.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

That's basically what I said in post 180! I could see reaction and counter-reaction leading to hyperthetical 'blows'
In the middle of all this is HOPPER, trying to sort out his problems!
Hopper - if your car is a WRX and not the STi an uprated fuel pump was not part of the PPP conversion.

JohnD

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Yes Hopper, I can only apologise (for myself, at least) for getting "involved" of late. Sorry.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Also, what about poor old OP, morfo?! I bet he's completely miffed with the way this thread has gone

But hey, when a thread is innocently titled "Oil change.....", we all know what's what to expect........

pdang

Well your saying technically,but if the crank doesn't rotate through a "bath" of oil then (un?)technically its a dry sump.The boxer engine cannot be anything but dry sump ( see MY previous post) otherwise there would be Massive drag/leakage on the crank AND pistons. There are a number of companies that will modify your wet sump into a dry sump, it aint difficult,and it doesnt reduce reliability. As for cornering on bikes( I've owned 1000cc world superbikes, SP1 etc) oil would be forced into the sump allowing plenty of lubriction to the crank,the reason for the dry sump is power AND ground clearance,(again show me a modern bike that has a wet sump).

gallois

purely from an outside perspective, and just looking at the theory behind cranking the engine after an oilchange.

1. there will be an amount of air trapped between the oil filter and the oil pipework above the filter, although oil is drawn in and pumped from the pick-up pipe in the (wet) sump, oil will be pumped through the filter pushing this air pocket potentially to the bearings (as well as the heads, it is not a linear system, more like a tee'd system, with oil travelling to all the engine parts simultainiously, so assuming that the air in the system will be purged in the heads is incorrect.

2. dry cranking the engine at low RPM's without ignition will be far kinder to any momentarily oil starved bearing surface because as well as the much lower RPM, there is no ignition to dramatically increase the load that big end bearing is forced against the crank.

3. an engine normally stopped, left for days or even weeks will not have the air lock to worry about, so dry cranking will be unnecessary.

whether the above significantly increases the lifespan of the bottom end is subjective, but i will be doing it as a safety precaution, just as i never go above 3000rpm until i reach almost 90deg, overly cautious? perhaps, but i'd rather not take the chance. (btw, the impreza temp gauge reads normal from about 50-60deg).

dj219957

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_sump


this clears the argument up better

http://www.stotfoldengineers.co.uk/S.../tag/oil-drag/