Ferry

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the information, I did not know it's your design/product. Looking forward to those pics. You received an e-mail regarding the induction kit today (via Tom Hayes of RCM).

Bob Rawle

Hi, you have email with some pictures, once my own car is back with me I will add pictures of that as well.

best regards

bob

MadUsa1

Hi Bob, I'm actually quite interested to see the performance of the standard Turbo (I assume a VF43) with this new engine and those Cosworth heads.

Do you have any graphs available?

Is the Turbo able to keep up any sort of boost to 8000rpm?

toyney83

iTrader: (3)

Hi bob. Must say this is a very interesting thread. Just a quick question. With the ej257 having problems with thin liner walls, is the plate insert good enough to stop the liners from balloning?

MadUsa1

Just to confirm - does the MY2010 2.5L come with a nitrided crank as standard?

What about the earler 2.5L STI engines, did they also have a nitrided crank?

Bob Rawle

Hi, the std turbo is not able to keep up with a std engine let alone my build, the best I could do was to maintain about 1.18 bar at the red line, it will run 1.6 bar happily mid range but dies very quickly, I did a Delta dash run or two on it which showed it was 390 to 400 bhp. I wouldn't claim any more than that, torque was v good being well over 400 ft lbs and it felt it too.

Is the plate insert going to stop ballooning, I guess you have to say will it stop it at "x" level of boost and torque since the answer is very much dependant on how far you are considering taking things. My own view is that its a huge improvement on any other method of strengthening, since this was done mid last year several other companies have followed the lead.

I am targeting 550 of each, based on other cars I have mapped using similar spec parts (not the engine though) the torque should be at least that BUT I will be limiting it, no more than 2 bar boost, more likely 1.8 to 1.9 area. It would be nice to test it to destruction to find out through, if someone wants to foot the bill I will happily do that !!

But the key to this is not only the plate, the engine parts have all been cryogenically treated, thats not a chemical treatment btw as someone posted elsewhere, but a form of "heat" treatment that involves freezing the parts to minim 200 deg C. This stabilises and toughens the components treated minimising distortion. A process I used in my aircraft industry days and widely used by F1 companies.

Crank, Subaru nitrided or not the cranks of the different model years almost randomly, to be honest I never checked on the older cars particularly, the 2010 short engine was chosen as the starting point because I knew id definitely had a nitrided crank. I think from memory the EJ257 cranks were/are all nitrided. I'm sure some one will correct me if thats not the case.

Update on the car itself, been waiting on the custom engine bay fuel lines being made up, afaik thats all complete so its theoretically possible to say it is virtually finished. I am off to Germany this coming week to map a few cars so I will not be able to do anything with it until at least the following week.

cheers

bob

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Good progress Bob

Was chatting to Mr F through this build and the plates looked great. They will hold it well but it will still get the deck shuffle IMO but at what level that will start is anyones guess. Probs beyond the 550 target.

The EJ257 cranks in the hawk engines were not nitrided but they still work well, my old 650bhp ej257 still ran the std crank without probs. Nitrided is better though.

toyney83

iTrader: (3)

i see what your saying bob. im actually thinking of going down this route with my own short motor. please point me in the right direction if im well off the mark here but could you not have custom liners fitted and then close the block. as a stronger option?

Bob Rawle

Hi, you can do whatever you want to be honest, replacing the liners has its own pitfalls though, its been done in that very configuration I will say and an engine is in a car and being used in anger. Thickening up the liners reduces the available volume for coolant so you have to watch that aspect.

My engine was deliberately left with the std liners BUT has had Cryo treatment which makes a significant difference. As to wether it will warp/distort or whatever time will tell, but so far its only used 1.4 litres oil in 18,000 miles so it not moved at all yet, but that has only been at around the 390 to 400 mark with mid 400's torque. My liners are much different to the std one after this treatment.

Thanks for the crank clarification Duncan as I said I had never paid any real attention to it but good to know.

cheers

bob

brightblue

Any updates ??

Bob Rawle

Hi, I think the phrase is "getting there"

Due to me wanting the fuel lines to be installed an a particular way had to do a dummy fit and then make up the braided lines from that but these things never go right so that had a few iterations and will probably change again, wiring for the Bosch pump is all installed and the fuel pump controller now operates the switching relay for that so everything is ecu controlled with nothing running permanently. The in tank pump is modulated at 100% duty full time as well so no staging going on for different engine loads.

Intercooler pipework was "ok" but needed several tweaks to get it in as it should be, it meant losing a couple of mounting brackets (intercooler pipe) but they were not really required in any case. the induction caused a bit of a head ache, I was simply going to use my BRD 80mm maf kit, but then it occurred that the large cone K & N filter that kit uses would possibly fit in the inner wing/bumper area, I avoid that system of induction normally as the filter ends up being too restrictive due to size constraints but this was an opportunity, and it works, but it needed a new induction pipe to carry the maf making and it took a few iterations to get that done.

Ultimately the car will run speed density but I want to use the maf at the outset so I have been able to do maf and SD maps to the same power level.

Currently the car is "complete" bar it needs a trip to Forge Motorsport to get some frills adding (charge air temp sensor boss etc) and it also needs an MOT !!

I am hoping to be starting the first mapping in about two weeks time, nothing serious just general road mapping to see how everything beds in and to get it running around 450 or so of each, then I can push it up to its final level. I expect to need to tweak installations having driven it for a short while as components to settle.

cheers

bob

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Watching this with interest, Bob!

Bob Rawle

Hi all, well it lives, just need it MOT'd and some frills sorted then I can get it on the boil, having been without it for so long I have to say its not been at the front of my mind but getting excited now !!!

I'll get a map on it so I get it all settled then we will see.

bob

Shaun

The suspense is killing us all!!!!!!

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

about time

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Any chance of a few piccies, especially the induction

Bob Rawle

I will post some pics etc up as soon as I can sort it all out I am going to bring the car back to Swindon on Monday.

It has been a long(ish) time but all good things etc.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Right the car sat in the garage since last Monday and I realigned some bits that with a second look at I wasn't happy with, still some more reorganising in the engine bay to do but I decided to get my digit out and do a bit of mapping on it. I only managed an hour before I had to scoot off to the physio but I think I have a map on it that has taken it some way towards its goal.

First thing I did was to remove the Race Rom patch so I was working with the rom file on its own.

Boost is set at 1.6 bar for now, it holds that flat across the rev range with no drop off.

The ignition map I was using on the engine with std turbo, intercooler and injectors is still the same now, having realigned the load axis to stretch out the head room at this level of boost I didn't need to touch it, I had set it a couple of degrees off the det line and fully expected to have to retard it but no it was very happy to the point that I can probably add some in, that was not for todays excersise though not enough time.

I set the afr's to what I call "GC8" levels, normally a I run a new age engine a touch richer.

Cam timing has been left at the same level as before but I fully expect and hope I can make more use of this now things are as they should be, the VF43 simply stalled completely if I used anything significant.

So having got the maps to where they would support full throttle I then did several pulls at increasing boost adjusting fueling and boost control maps as I went, finally I was able to use wot without being tentative.

I did take logs as I worked through all this and also a couple of Deltadash runs at the end, not much point me quoting the figures from those as they will only attract adverse comment I dare say.

From the logs maximum mass air was 381 gm/sec at a maf voltage of 4.64 volts and 83.4% injector duty, fuel pressure is set to 3.5 bar atmospheric for now. bear in mind that gm/sec figure is from a 80mm maf system not the std sized one so its not a "true" figure but rather a reduced scale number. (i.e. higher in real terms)

I took it to about 7000 rpm and it still makes increasing power at that so the peak is going to be a bit higher I would hope, but we will see.

Spool is good but I want to work on that, cam timing and the boost control system itself should improve it (choice of boost control pipework and solenoid).

No pics yet I still haven't had any time for that.

So a brief update I was planning on another session over the weekend but thats not going to happen as I am tuning both days now.

If I can get time before then, and I suspect I only need another hour on the road to get it to the point, then I can scoot off to SRR and/or RCM and see what its got. Maybe both would be good since there are debates relating to "old" and "new" Dyno Dynamics software producing differing results.

But for now even at this stage its a bit brutal ... likes going sideways !! On light throttle town use it still drives like a stock car though.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Bit more of an update, I managed another mapping stint today, worked on the cam timing and a few other things which realised a big torque and boost response improvement yielding general gains everywhere in addition.

Ok so to describe the car .... the only way to describe it is "brutal".

I am now getting 431 gm/sec at 4.94 maf voltage and. Thats at only 1.6 bar. So I think its maxed my 80mm maf kit !

I can get a bar of boost by 2700 rpm in 6th, full boost by 3000 rpm.

In 4th foot to floor at 2000 rpm I get 1 bar at 3200 rpm with 1.6 at 3600 rpm.

No surge at all everything is very clean.

I have, however, now hit 100% injector duty at 6200 rpm and 1.6 bar using GC8 afr's. Fortunately the fueling stays as it should for some way above that but ... I am using 800cc injectors at 3.5 bar atmospheric fuel pressure, Bosch Motorsport pump.

Delta dash produced some silly numbers again !!! Even allowing 18% loss instead of my usual 21.8%.

Need to find some time to take it to the rollers now and see what its really up to. Nothing more for me to do. ... edited to add that dyno is now booked

DD is showing "all square" with torque just above power at the moment.

Coolant temps v good so far running at 78 deg "normal" and not going above 84 deg during hard runs, charge temps are dropping initially then slightly rising, today no more than 24 deg from a 18 deg starting point.

happy so far

cheers

bob

brightblue

Cheers for the update, been following the thread with great interest.

Bob Rawle

Right just to say its been on the dyno ... once I have sorted some hosting out I will post the graphs.

V Power only no additives just pure V Power.

Given that, I was more than happy, nearly achieved my methanol objectives as it was.

More when I post the graphs, interestingly my DD power at the wheels in 4th gear was within 1 bhp of the rollers in 3rd gear.

Bob

Bob Rawle

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Must be "interesting" on the road Bob

TX.

Bob Rawle

A few observations on the graphs.

Losses were 19.66 percent, I have used 21.8% typically with Delta Dash runs, the car was run with the diff locked.

Boost was kept limited I saw no sense in raising it beyond this, on the road the car holds 1.6/1.65 bar flat to the red line.

Charge temps initially dropped by 2 degrees then rose by five degrees, Hyperflow FMIC seems very effective even given the air flow is from the dyno blower.

Mass air flow gms/sec were 425 max on the dyno against 431 max I logged when mapping.

The car was road mapped first, I had rewired the Bosch pump afterwards which ran it a bit harder and so the fueling was over rich on arrival.

We did some throttle controlled runs to settle things down.

At a throttle controlled 1/1.2 bar circa 420 bhp.
At a throttle controlled 1.4 bar circa 460/470 bhp

Throttle controlled means the runs were not at WOT but the throttle was only part open and used to hold the boost, like a road mapping run.

All runs were done with the bonnet shut, the above graphs were as that, it was not held open to assist cooling.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Hi, yes it is "very" interesting on the road as the response is extremely fast, its a real hoot trying to drive it normally, but it will "pootle" around in 5th gear at 1500 rpm without any bother at all. Despite the cams it drives normally. Idle is raised slightly to increase cam lobe surface speed.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Normally I avoid this as its typically not always possible to get a large enough filter into the inner wing spaces, but in the case of the hawk it was possible to do this ...

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Thanks Bob. It was the filter size that I was interested in...

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Some very nice figures achieved there Bob, I am interested in your air filter as well as I would like to change my APS cone filter for a larger type.

Are these the final maps or is there some further tweaking to be carried out?

Bob Rawle

Hi, since I cannot resist tweaking the car will never be "finished" as such, looking at voltage stabilisation for the Bosch pump, oil cooling options, fuel cooling options and it would be rude not to have a meth map as well.

I need to take some pics of the engine bay to show the rest of the induction set up. the filter option works as there is the space behind the hawkeye bumper

cheers

bob

Shaun

Nice figures Bob.... it's at the same level as my Spec C was with a similar build.

With your compression ratio you should **** 600bhp if you were to use Q16, as I did.

20% Meth mix would be interesting.

I can say (after owning a car at this level) it's too much for a road car..... but it's so much fun.