Bob Rawle

Block modification


Exedy Hyper Twin Plate clutch


HyperTwin specification


HyperTwin schematic diagram


Slave cylinder


cheers

Bob

greg320

iTrader: (15)

whens this race rom due for release bob?

Bob Rawle

Race Rom is in the final stages of beta testing, currently I have just finished evaluating RC4 and will get RC5 early next week, the new hardware required is complete and I have been using that this week. Obviously the system will not be released formally until its certain that all the major bugs are sorted, but I know that Ecutek are keen to get this done in january. I suspect/anticipate that we will shortly be able to start to programming customer cars with it. I have fed back a list of wants which should improve both the user experience and the tuner experience. I rec'd RC1 on Xmas eve, suffice to say you can guess what I have spent most of the festive season doing !!

So thats about it, its very close now.

cheers

bob

JP4

iTrader: (12)

Will certainly be interesting and am looking forward to it.

Shaun

Bob,
I went slightly higher comp than you have and it was still great. There was a question mark over how VPower would respond, ignition and DET wise. Fortunately it was not a problem and the engine provided more power with less boost @ 530bhp (it has recently made 543bhp with the new owner on another ECU with VPower). Running Q16 race fuel provided major improvements. Leaving boost as it was (under 2bar) on the standard fit GT3076 core turbo, it made over 600bhp by increasing ignition by 12degs.... it could of taken more but on an OE block case, tuning ceased.

I suspect you will be on to a winner with the potentially added reliability of the closed decking.

With regards to the clutch I ran one of the twin plates for 3 years. No problems with full bore launching and it is still going strong now.

What core and position turbo are you thinking of moving to?

The AET standard fit 3076 core worked extremely well on mine and provided the best of both worlds in my opinion. Great spool, mid range and top end for OE fit.

With a number of different options available now I would hope to see you push the boundaries more..... stick with OE position please!!!

Bob Rawle

Hi Shaun, indeed i agree that compression need not be a barrier on V Power, already the engine is running a very decent amount of ignition if the numbers are to believed, its a bit misleading as I still only have the std turbo in place but as a relative comparison to when it was standard its on or about the same ign in the mid range and probably about 3 degrees less in the high end. I put this down to the cleaner breathing and improved efficiency of the new engine, eliminating the usual oil fumes from the intake has paid dividends but thats why its done.

Turbo's, its a hard one, mid 500's on V Power with a 600 and something bhp meth map would suit me, I would like to stay OE and am very much thinking twin scroll and have had some interesting discussions on this. One criteria will remain paramount and thats to retain good "punch" so good spool is paramount.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Here are a couple more pictures of the engine build. I think this shows the closed deck approach up quite well.

Bob Rawle

With "proper" oil in the engine I was able to put a bit more of a map on it at the beginning of last week, the fuel maps have changed significantly in terms of level and map shape the difference in VE is significant.

Boost was set to 1.55 bar flat, I am using the standard two port solenoid with amended boost control pipes and the control is very good, sharp and focused. The boost won't hold flat, at 6k its down to 1.4 bar but we will see.

Now using bursts of full throttle and have so far ventured up to about 6000 rpm, mileage has not increased significantly and is now at 1280 miles, but its feeling better every time I drive it.

I am still using the standard top mount, the amount of oil film that is trapped in these appears endless although to look at it you would not think so. So far its been off for some sort of clean through three times, one more should do it and thats planned for early this coming week. The elimination of oil vapour from the intake is even more important when using higher compression.

I have mentioned already that the amount of ignition I am using is more than I expected, its worth pointing out that the numbers do not mean that much, all other conditions and components would need to be the same and the uprated oil pump itself could mean that the numbers appear better than reality, I will put a timing light on it and check it properly, maybe when she goes on the rollers for the first time would be the opportunity. By the end of this coming week I should have enough miles to give that serious thought.

Last week has also seen some intensive activity testing Race Rom, currently the ecu is using the latest beta and its looking very good, the new and revised tuning software is a credit to the guys from Ecutek and the effort that is being put in is tremendous.

The settings for the special features have been transferred across from the very early beta I had in the ecu when the engine was std, obviously testing of things like flat shifting and launch control has been limited due to its new state, the auto throttle blip settings are a mile out, for example, since the engine response in its new form is dramatically different. One nice touch is the ability to flat shift on part throttle if you want, talk about being lazy !!

Race Rom has progressed significantly and I have been getting a lot of questions about what, how and when. A separate thread is probably in order so as not to mix this one up too much.

One very high priority now is brakes, the car is in great need, mapping it last week showed them to be totally shot !!

I am seriously considering options, having experienced Performance Friction replacement front brakes with performance Friction rear pads on OE discs this is a strong contender, but has anyone any other suggestions? Interested in first hand accounts.

cheers

bob

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

I have nothing much to add other than the block looks amazing. Keep up the good work Bob

gussy

iTrader: (2)

Bob I can recommend what you are doing with the brakes (PF) .I have the same set up on mine tbh ran that set up for the scoobysprint championship and also the grudgement days and had no problems whatsoever with brake fade or stopping power even from cold. J Felstead is running the same set up on his as well.

Shaun

Bob,
Glad to see you are looking to stick as OE as possible!!


Brakes......

If you want a really good set-up, then I would not hesitate to recommend the AP 6 Pots. This is what I had on the Spec C and with the grunt that thing had, I never had one problem whether on road or gunning it on track. I never touched the rears..... I would suggest the car did not need anything altering there.

My 400bhp JDM Hawkeye has the PF discs and pads at the front. Currently I am very impressed with them, but they do not give me the same bite as the AP's did. I have yet to give the car a workout on track, so it will be interesting to see how they hold up with some abuse. I am expecting them to be "fine", but I also expect them not to be as good as the AP's. However "fine" is good enough for me, as this car is not going to be used for any competition.

Would the Spec C of been "fine" at mid 500's on PF's (nailing it on track).... I don't know. I was braking hard at circa 150mph consistently down the back straight of Snetterton with the AP's, without any issues whatsoever. Not sure the PF's would of taken that, but then that is faily extreme.

If I was making a choice and funds were not a problem (the PF set-up was already fitted to the JDM Hawkeye, so it makes no sense just to change them now without any testing - but AP's will go on if the testing proves negative), I suspect I would be fitting AP 6 pots to any 500+ bhp car used for track, asap.

MaDaSS

Can't fault Shauns real experiences there. Maybe one other option is the Bluestuff NDX pads Bob. Plenty of tests and track abuse from various ppl on here using them to good effect. Thing is, do u wanna spend money more than once on brakes? Pads are gonna be around £200 F n R and that's if u keep same discs. Could be worth a try but as Shaun and others know, AP are the best on a track car. Car sounds awesome, nice1.

Bob Rawle

Thanks all, Shaun I have to agree that the AP setup is probably a no brainer, they do work very well under all conditions, I had AP four pots on the STi5 and never had any complaints even at the lower spec level. I experienced the PF brakes when I was over in Slovenia mapping last year, one of the guys had them on his Hawkeye UK Sti which I had remapped, on the last day we had some social time and he took me out and about in it which was impressive, there is a mountain pass which was built by prisoners of way, its "proper". Each corner is a hairpin and is cobbled not tarmac (the bend that is) so consistent and reliable stopping power is VERY essential else you literally drop off a cliff. How they would stand up to hard track use is something I am not sure of either.

Shaun does your current car just have front disc and pads plus the PF calliper or has the car retained the OEM callipers ?

Had the top mount off my car this afternoon and flushed it through using 5 litres of brake cleaner, goodness where it held all that oil film, anyway its squeaky clean now, took it out for a bit of a run then removed the top mount again to check and nothing showing at all. So getting set.

cheers

bob

Shaun

Bob,
Current car has the PF discs and bells. Not sure of the pad compound.... they may be DS's. The Calipers are still OEM. Like I said I am impressed with them overall. From my use so far the only negative is the feel.... whilst they do not feel wooden (which some people have said, but you need to actually use these brakes properly and that won't happen), they don't feel as "sharp" as the AP's did.

The AP's gave me total confidence as I knew what they could do for me (and tried to prove that to some degree lol).... for road use the PF's give me confidence.... I just don't know if that would be the same with hard track use. Maybe they will be fine.

I'm sure there are others on here that can provide some better feedback, who have had both set's on a single car.

In many ways I can negate any "feel" changes as long as the hardware perfoms the same. You can come to accept that whilst they may feel different, they actually perform the same... thus confidence is unaffected in reality.

Zisis

Shaun, do you know which type of PF pad you have at the front? I have the same setup (PF front two-piece discs with OEM Brembos) and I tried the Z-compount (road use pad) and was not impressed at all by their performance. The only good thing about them was that after literally burning them at track, their performance was exactly same as before.

Shaun

Not sure if they are PF or Ferodo DS2500 pads. I would need to double check with API who fitted the kit.

LitchfieldImports

Glad your enjoying the engine Bob its taken a lot of work but I think we're finally got a package that is going to work well. I did another one today in a MkII Type-25 Spec C and the engine is very good, especially with a large turbo

I look forward to trying yours again with your RACEROM magic applied

If your thinking of a bigger brake kit you should try one of our Alcon equiped cars, they are superb with great pedal feel.

Regards

Iain

Bob Rawle

Hi Iain, yes the formula seems to be very much on the money, when we did that Irish car before Xmas I had avery good feeling about it. Your Type 25 customers are being spoiled. Well worth all the effort and I can only say thanks again for that.

Sounds like I should pop over again, end of this week the engine will have close to 2000 miles on and I think another oil change will be in order. Should be able to finish the top end off then and see what the std turbo will bring, not sure about 400 bhp but we will see. Can also do some "proper" Race Rom FFS and LC testing as well.

Then, yes it will be turbo time, looking forward very much to that and all that goes with.

I have not ever been an Alcon fan but have to say I have not had a car with them on either so I would be interested in doing a bit of a "test".

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Following an email from Iain last night I took the car over to Litchfield Imports and Dan did the oil change, semi synthetic again, no fully synth for it yet, no need and its only just cleared 2000 miles.

Turbo decision is made, plan is to go to that stage early March when Iain's billet range starts to become available. It will mean several changes to the car, headers, up pipe, down pipe, inlet manifold will go JDM to eliminate the tumble valves and baffled sump probably. 800cc injectors. Looking to go a step up on the current LM500 which the billet wheel should allow.

Initially i think I will leave the top mount in place, just to see what it will cope with, but it will get a front mount pdq after that check is done.

More mapping yesterday evening and tonight, now the intercooler is completely oil film free I have been able to wind in some more ignition, I have now profiled the "Road" boost targets and wastegate duty maps so its much more progressive and not an "on-off" switch any more, 'Race" I have left as was since the instant response is ideal for competition use. This will all change when the big turbo goes on but meantime its good to be able to take advantage of the opportunity to do some extra R & D.

Oil consumption: - one of the 2.5 gripes is usually oil consumption, I am very happy, then, that so far this engine has used ... zilch. Literally it has not used any either during the bedding in stage or in the last 1200 miles with the semi synth in. I have driven it over the range of conditions you would expect, its had plenty of full throttle use plus also long motorway cruises which historically I always found generated the highest oil consumption. So clearly the Cryo treatment has paid off, the quality and attention given to the build is also a big contributor. Lets see how it behaves in the next 2000 miles.

Shaun very good meeting up, I envy you the drive in that Spec C !!

cheers

Bob

Shaun

Bob,
It's been like passing ships in the night! All that time we have known each other in a "virtual" way and never actually met face to face! Iain's remark he made to the both of us, is still making me chuckle.

It was good to finally meet and chat all things Subaru.... I think you will have something special there, once you have really started to get going on the modifications.

Just remember what I said.... 600bhp on VPower with that nice new standard position turbo that is being worked on, or was it 650bhp. I can't remember!

Looking forward to some hopeful new boundaries being pushed by you and everyone else supporting this project.

johnfelstead

Actually i am not using PF and have never used them on my current MY05 JDM STi.

Brakes wise i used X-Spec fast road pads with X-Spec grooved disks all round in 2009 and the start of 2010, great combination for fast road use, you won't fade them on the road and they work well from cold. I won the standard class at both rounds of scooby sprint i entered using this brake setup. Only real downer was the dust, they are like a ceramic Pagid which leaves small dots of black ceramic on the wheel, which are a pain to clean off. After using a polish on the rims post a good clean they improved in terms of cleaning the crud off, but they were still a pain and looked quite bad on light gold wheels with not a huge amount of use.

Towards the end of 2010, just before scooby shootout i tried a set of the new EBC bluestuff pads as part of their product evaluation via scoobynet. I have to say they are damn good pads for fast road use. The bite from these is immense, they work really well from cold, and to date i havn't managed to fade them on the road. I was using these pads with the X-Spec disks when i finished 2nd overall at scooby shootout.

I've also done 8 laps of the nurburgring with these and they worked a treat, which is basically a good fast road brake load test. I did try them on the GP track too whilst out there, i didn't manage to fade them completely, they did drop off very slightly once very hot, but still braking better than any other fast road pad i've tried on track at the high temp end. I had to stop running in the end as i took the temps so high the brake fluid boiled and i lost all brakes, that was after 15 minutes of spanking everything on track (plenty of 911's). The disks were knackered after this run, but that's simply down to taking them to circa 1000 degrees C, my fault for not aranging cooling for that environment, as i didnt know the GP track would be open before arriving there.

I'm about to try them using EBC's own disks, but i suspect they will work just as before, so a great fast road option for you to try Bob. There is no need for any two peice disk setups unless you want to do serious track work, the problems with the Newage cars brake wise has always been pad related when used on the road IMHO.

P.S. I'm a southerner now, moved to hampshire, so if you want to try my car brake wise you are welcome. It's just sprung a small oil leak around the defi sensor takeoff today so i'll have to sort that first, but if you are in no rush to make a decision i'd be happy to pop over when i'm sorted.

hpoolsteve

iTrader: (4)

Subscribed...... GREAT THREAD

Bob Rawle

Shaun I know, as you say after so long in the virtual world to bump into each other at iains's was a great opportunity to talk rather than type. Like you I want to try and do things in stages, its very tempting to just blitz everything but the real pleasure and enjoyment comes from evolving a project and also letting others gain from it. I am certainly looking at your thread very closely indeed there are some options there for my car as well.

John thanks very much for the input, given your very high standards of ability if a brake setup provides you with a result then its certainly going to be good for most people. I hadn't realised you were in "our" neck of the woods, it would be great to meet up, my car has standard brakes which are the actual original parts it left the factory with, and as you can imagine its not good if pushed.

Race Rom testing plus also the "lure" of just driving the car and tweaking for the new engine has accelerated the degradation.

Not much more to report on the car, I have been testing another race Rom RC today, I will add something on that to my race Rom thread.

I have spent time looking at the idle control settings, whilst I have had no problems in this area its was noticeable that immediately after a reflash the car was having to "learn" before it became plug and play. there are several maps that are available and I now have the car starting and idling straight away, given the way the ecu is now being programmed this is important, made some changes to the throttle mapping to calm down the take off from idle, it was perfect for the std engine but too aggressive for this one. I have also "softened" the boost response a little more for "Road" as it was still somewhat "on/off".

Ignition maps, I have now got to the "det line", that means the maps are running the engine on the point of det, for me this is denoted by the change in engine tone as the cylinder behaviour modifies. I am also seeing light spikes as I run hard through the rev range, this is a normal part of mapping a car, I mention it particularly since its of interest to me given the high compression ratio I have. Increased the rev range and now up to between 6500 and 7000. i have set a Road limit of 8000 and a Race limit of 8300 for now.

The engine is definitely run in now.

cheers

Bob

johnfelstead

Hi Bob, I moved darn sarth with a new job in Feb, just south of Andover so only an hour away. I've been meaning to get in touch since, you'd love the kit i'm working with now, mainly 60's-80's F1 and still the CanAm cars and sports cars.

I managed to install the new brake disks and pads today, had a look at the oil leak and it looks like i'll need to replace the adaptor the defis install into, so hopefully can get that sorted this week.

When i bought my car it was still on the OEM disks and pads, they were apauling, a couple of hard brakes and they faded badly, pretty dangerous for the type of car and weight these newage cars carry. The Brembo calipers are pretty good for the majority of people i think, just a pad and disk swap will sort most issues if not doing serious track work. I've driven a couple of quick TA newage cars in the last 2 years and they do definately benefit from AP 6 pots and larger disks on track, but i dont feel the investment is needed for road use with these new materials for the majority.

Everyone drives differently of course, so may load the brakes up more than me, but i've been pleasantly surprised how good they are.

Arnie_1

Great thread Bob, can't wait to see how it develops.

John, is this your first Scoob since you sold the legendary Classic STi you used to have? I remember when you first got it and documented its first washing and detail job.

johnfelstead

Thats going back a bit now! My first STi5 Type RA limited (bob mapped ) went to a top chap who is still using it, i think it would maybe have 120K miles on the clock now. I then had a couple of none scoobs for long comutes and cheaper fun, then bought another STi5 Type RA Limited, sold that to an enthusiasts who didnt really use it much, then it went to another enthusiast where it sadly got written off, that one wasn't as nice a car at first but i sorted that out eventually, (again Bob mapped )

I pondered buying a supercharged Porshe 928 for a laugh, but it was a nightmare trying to buy the thing, and when i eventually did get to drive it i was massivley underwhelmed, so bought the JDM STi i have now.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Just found time to have a look on here Bob. Very interesting and it will create a lot of interest.

What material was used to create the closed deck?

Bob Rawle

John just give me a shout and I can pop over as you say we are very close now, I am turning somewhat green over the projects you must be getting involved with those are "real" cars.

Shaun still has the std Brembo callipers in place, I know he has noticed a different "feel" about his brakes which I thought probably related to that, compared to AP six pot full setup.

I am not a heavy last minute braker, I prefer to carry speed forward and use the brakes very little in fact, obviously on track in "serious mode"its a different story but whilst I do plan to track it I probably won't need the absolute ultimate.

pads and discs sounds like the most effective way forward at the moment, the car had 9000 miles on it when I bought it 12 months ago still with original discs and pads, its now got 26k on it and still has the same discs and pads !!

So I do need to do something fairly quickly, I'd prefer not to have the wheels get too sticky with dust but thats a low priority against effective stopping power.

I clearly remember the RA's, the session we had setting up the AVC-R for road and the track boost was one of the lasting memory's I will have, blasting it through the lanes to simulate track environment was brilliant stuff.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Hi Harvey, material choice was very carefully made, coefficient of expansion and material hardness compatibility were paramount. The Cryogenic treatment was key to ensuring the combined materials stayed as stable as possible under all conditions. The tolerances and fits used during the machining process are also key to the end result. Base material of the inserted deck is obviously Aluminium as is the block itself.

Anyone interested in using one of these blocks as the basis for a build would be best to contact Iain and I know he would be pleased to discuss requirements.

Look forward to being able to demonstrate it to whatever level I have it when I am up in February even though it will probably still be work in progress from a mapping perspective.

cheers

Bob

johnfelstead

I'm pretty light on brakes on the road too, but it's always nice to know you can stop properly when needed!

I remember the AVCR runs well, nice roads out there. Give me a buzz when you can.

cheers
john