Well thats me banned!
I got 6pts & £800 fine for 55 in a 30 with only one copper giving me the ticket 
pleaded guilty mind on advice of Solicitor ...
16 December 2009, 11:40 PM
#62
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68% of ROWV accidents where the motorcyclist is not regarded as to blame involve a driver who somehow fails to see a motorcyclist who should be in clear view, and indeed frequently is in view to witnesses or other road users in the area. Failures of observation that involve drivers failing to take account of restricted views of one kind or another, and failing to judge the approach speed and/or distance of a motorcyclist, are not included in this category. Sometimes, accident-involved drivers in motorcycle accidents fail to see riders even when they are verifiably using visibility aids, such as daytime running lights and high-visibility protective clothing. This occurs in 7.1% of such cases (but the level of the use of these aids to visibility is felt to be under-reported by police). An example of such a case is given in Figure 7.
quote from department off transport
Yeah really stupid to suggest such a thing
quote from department off transport
Yeah really stupid to suggest such a thing
I am not sure you have read the first sentence. 68% of accidents where the motorcylist is not regarded as to blame.
Let's see the more complete stats of accidents where the motorcyclist was regarded as to blame and compare numbers
16 December 2009, 11:45 PM
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Firstly, hard luck on the persecution.....
Second, the problem is that of the other 32% of ROWV (?) accidents involve a disproportionately high number of serious and fatal incidents......
My pal is a paramedic and sees way more than you'd ever want to !
I also have a pal who was quicker down the strip at Elvington on his back wheel than most bikers could manage on two.... in the end "Trev" perma-banned him as he was deemed dangerous....
( to his insurance maybe ? ).
dunx
Second, the problem is that of the other 32% of ROWV (?) accidents involve a disproportionately high number of serious and fatal incidents......
My pal is a paramedic and sees way more than you'd ever want to !
I also have a pal who was quicker down the strip at Elvington on his back wheel than most bikers could manage on two.... in the end "Trev" perma-banned him as he was deemed dangerous....
( to his insurance maybe ? ).dunx
the stats only refer to accidents where the biker was not to blame. Unfortunately your paramedic friend would be mopping up a whole lot more accidents where the biker was to blame (like doing a wheelie into lamp post, hitting oncoming car whilst overtaking, etc).
Trout
17 December 2009, 12:06 AM
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Some stats for you...
Motorcyclists represent 1% of motor traffic but 14% of road deaths
Super sport bikes represent 25% of serious or fatal accidents but only 19% of registrations making them the most dangerous category
Around 85% of serious/fatal motorcycle accidents are made up of Right of way violations, going of on bends and overtaking/filtering accidents. The latter two being the blame of the rider.
The spread of these three types of accident are 60% ROWV, 20% bends, 20% overtaking.
So the accident rate is
15% other
51% ROWV
17% Bends
17% Overtaking
Of that 68% of ROWVs are regarded as not the riders fault
So of 100% of serious/fatal accidents then around 35% are known to be not the fault of the rider. Even if we allow half of the other category to be not the riders fault, e.g. mechanical failure, hit by a falling tree etc, then you have 42% of accidents are not the riders fault.
Or 58% of motorcyle accidents are clearly the riders fault.
Or 8% of all road fatalities, from far less than 1% of road users.
Motorcyclists represent 1% of motor traffic but 14% of road deaths
Super sport bikes represent 25% of serious or fatal accidents but only 19% of registrations making them the most dangerous category
Around 85% of serious/fatal motorcycle accidents are made up of Right of way violations, going of on bends and overtaking/filtering accidents. The latter two being the blame of the rider.
The spread of these three types of accident are 60% ROWV, 20% bends, 20% overtaking.
So the accident rate is
15% other
51% ROWV
17% Bends
17% Overtaking
Of that 68% of ROWVs are regarded as not the riders fault
So of 100% of serious/fatal accidents then around 35% are known to be not the fault of the rider. Even if we allow half of the other category to be not the riders fault, e.g. mechanical failure, hit by a falling tree etc, then you have 42% of accidents are not the riders fault.
Or 58% of motorcyle accidents are clearly the riders fault.
Or 8% of all road fatalities, from far less than 1% of road users.
17 December 2009, 07:14 AM
#66
Did he video you, is there cctv in the area & were there any witnesses? From what i gather you have admitted to it anyway so thats now over with, I can not imagine you can back track the court proceedings unless you get some representation to look into it for you, but it would be almost a definate to have a representative to contact Adrian as he would explain the route to take to try and quash the ban etc.... I'd say its not worth your while but then im not you
I take it this was a Solicitor you asked in passing rather than representing you? By the Book mate 'mind how you go'
17 December 2009, 11:35 AM
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Les/Pikey,
but isn't that the point. Sometimes a pretty tame accident can kill someone. Just catches there neck as the wrong angle or whatever and gone.
Sometimes there are very big accidents and everyone gets away with it.
However, one thing is clear, there are a disproportionate number of deaths and serious injuries on big bikes than anything else on the road. I have, sadly, seen it right in front of me.
And the police will have seen it many times over. So this time I side with the justice system, combined with the earlier ban.
but isn't that the point. Sometimes a pretty tame accident can kill someone. Just catches there neck as the wrong angle or whatever and gone.
Sometimes there are very big accidents and everyone gets away with it.
However, one thing is clear, there are a disproportionate number of deaths and serious injuries on big bikes than anything else on the road. I have, sadly, seen it right in front of me.
And the police will have seen it many times over. So this time I side with the justice system, combined with the earlier ban.
I was not trying to advocate near vertical wheelies on the public road, I was only guilty of little ones which are easy to control anyway. You are right about the bad accidents on the very powerful 'bikes, I have learned to drive defensively on my 'bike these days and never trust anyone waiting at a cross roads for instance when I am cruising past.Luckily for me in the days when I was falling off every 'bike I every owned, there was very much less traffic about.
Les
17 December 2009, 11:43 AM
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I was told when I did my test that the majority of bike accidents were 'no other vehicle involved' so biker going too fast for conditions or more likely their own ability.
However, where a vehicle was involved in two thirds of cases the biker isn't to blame which seems to be bourne out by the stats above.
In the past few years I have been bounced off by a driver on the wrong side of the road and my mate has been knocked off twice, once on a roundabout by white van man chnaging lanes and another white van changing lanes on a straight bit of road. In both cases the vehicle failed to stop. He's also fallen off opn his own but that was at the Nurburgring so slightly excusable.
5t.
However, where a vehicle was involved in two thirds of cases the biker isn't to blame which seems to be bourne out by the stats above.
In the past few years I have been bounced off by a driver on the wrong side of the road and my mate has been knocked off twice, once on a roundabout by white van man chnaging lanes and another white van changing lanes on a straight bit of road. In both cases the vehicle failed to stop. He's also fallen off opn his own but that was at the Nurburgring so slightly excusable.
5t.
17 December 2009, 12:01 PM
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Some stats for you...
Motorcyclists represent 1% of motor traffic but 14% of road deaths
Super sport bikes represent 25% of serious or fatal accidents but only 19% of registrations making them the most dangerous category
Around 85% of serious/fatal motorcycle accidents are made up of Right of way violations, going of on bends and overtaking/filtering accidents. The latter two being the blame of the rider.
The spread of these three types of accident are 60% ROWV, 20% bends, 20% overtaking.
So the accident rate is
15% other
51% ROWV
17% Bends
17% Overtaking
Of that 68% of ROWVs are regarded as not the riders fault
So of 100% of serious/fatal accidents then around 35% are known to be not the fault of the rider. Even if we allow half of the other category to be not the riders fault, e.g. mechanical failure, hit by a falling tree etc, then you have 42% of accidents are not the riders fault.
Or 58% of motorcyle accidents are clearly the riders fault.
Or 8% of all road fatalities, from far less than 1% of road users.
Motorcyclists represent 1% of motor traffic but 14% of road deaths
Super sport bikes represent 25% of serious or fatal accidents but only 19% of registrations making them the most dangerous category
Around 85% of serious/fatal motorcycle accidents are made up of Right of way violations, going of on bends and overtaking/filtering accidents. The latter two being the blame of the rider.
The spread of these three types of accident are 60% ROWV, 20% bends, 20% overtaking.
So the accident rate is
15% other
51% ROWV
17% Bends
17% Overtaking
Of that 68% of ROWVs are regarded as not the riders fault
So of 100% of serious/fatal accidents then around 35% are known to be not the fault of the rider. Even if we allow half of the other category to be not the riders fault, e.g. mechanical failure, hit by a falling tree etc, then you have 42% of accidents are not the riders fault.
Or 58% of motorcyle accidents are clearly the riders fault.
Or 8% of all road fatalities, from far less than 1% of road users.
Last edited by Gear Head; 17 December 2009 at 12:09 PM.
17 December 2009, 12:06 PM
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Les what are you fibbing for?? i have found secret footage off you
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
If you are into bikes you will know some one who has had a tumble. My mate came off on way to scarbourough and is in a wheel chair for rest off his life now.
Also an accident at end off my road last week. Car driver is being prosecuted for pulling out on a bike.
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
If you are into bikes you will know some one who has had a tumble. My mate came off on way to scarbourough and is in a wheel chair for rest off his life now.
Also an accident at end off my road last week. Car driver is being prosecuted for pulling out on a bike.
17 December 2009, 12:50 PM
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Les what are you fibbing for?? i have found secret footage off you
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
If you are into bikes you will know some one who has had a tumble. My mate came off on way to scarbourough and is in a wheel chair for rest off his life now.
Also an accident at end off my road last week. Car driver is being prosecuted for pulling out on a bike.
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
If you are into bikes you will know some one who has had a tumble. My mate came off on way to scarbourough and is in a wheel chair for rest off his life now.
Also an accident at end off my road last week. Car driver is being prosecuted for pulling out on a bike.
I never got around to doing a "stoppie" and my good old 30 year old Bonnie wont do either a wheelie or a stoppie, probably a good thing-or so Trout might say!
The ZX12R I used to have took a bit of beating too, those were the days!
Les
17 December 2009, 01:21 PM
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This is the photo I took of Les on his trip to France last August ...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_duoAE0mCew...motorcycle.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_duoAE0mCew...motorcycle.jpg
17 December 2009, 02:14 PM
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Les what are you fibbing for?? i have found secret footage off you
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
YouTube - Insane Street Bike Stunts
I dont know how to explain the bike bit. But if you look at it this way my bike out accelerate evos scoobys etc. and it cost less tha 3K
Yeah, and you get soaked, cold, get called a power ranger, are far more likely to be injured in an accident and oh look......you've just lost your license on one.
Bikes were all the rage until the Mini came along. Kind of says something doesn't it.
17 December 2009, 02:25 PM
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Iv never been called a power ranger?
Iv never got soaked or cold mate, My bike is a toy so doesnt go out unless weather is lovely.
Im not going into the car vs bike debate. As i like both both have there ups and downs
Bikes less tax less fuel less insurance quicker, IMO you cant beat going out on a nice night on the bike. But in a accident your more likely to become road jam.
Terminator X can see your point mate which is y i have both lol (although they are just ornaments at moment)
Sammy yes banned 9 month
Iv never got soaked or cold mate, My bike is a toy so doesnt go out unless weather is lovely.
Im not going into the car vs bike debate. As i like both both have there ups and downs
Bikes less tax less fuel less insurance quicker, IMO you cant beat going out on a nice night on the bike. But in a accident your more likely to become road jam.
Terminator X can see your point mate which is y i have both lol (although they are just ornaments at moment)
Sammy yes banned 9 month
17 December 2009, 02:36 PM
#79
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A single policeman's evidence IS enough to convict you -- circumstances depending off course
20 December 2009, 04:16 AM
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guilty
all solicitors are the same , they are all from the legal system , i l let u win this one , give me a result on my one , scratch each other backs its called the bar , i ve been in trouble most of my life , up intill 1995 when they shot and killed my pall who was carrying a pen tourch , i got away and was sentanced to five yrs , bullets just missed me i went to jail... they went to carribean for rehab and help, i got ptsd,now with major issue s im violent and hate people , but at end of the day like you i broke the law its the same , my solicitor milked it to the max , but had a good reputation , u need ian freeman he gets every one off at ten grand an hour ???? we got no chance, post was for wrxpike too, good luck , but i agree you have omitted the offence so case closed ,
20 December 2009, 11:47 AM
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20 December 2009, 12:42 PM
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This is the photo I took of Les on his trip to France last August ...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_duoAE0mCew...motorcycle.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_duoAE0mCew...motorcycle.jpg
Heck of a lot older than the one in your picture Pete- you must do better next time!
Les
20 December 2009, 01:13 PM
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Les, I'm sorry but I feel I have to be a cvnt and call you out on something...
Firstly, I'd like to start by saying that I disagree with a lot of what you say on Scoobynet. Nevertheless, I respect your posts tremendously. The reason that we don't see eye to eye is likely a result of different personality types and, I suspect, age...I'm 31 fwiw.
My general impression of you is that you are the first to advocate the 'safety' line in any thread where risk is being discussed. You strongly opposed my view that driving with a hands free phone system wasn't an unacceptable safety risk. It seems, from that thread and many others of a similar nature, that you are the kind of person that always looks to take the lowest risk approach even at the expense of fun or convenience. This attitude is, I believe, why we probably disagree a fair bit on SN because I do have a more liberally approach to risk.
I expect your attitude is a result of your years of military service and aviation. I can imagine that flying planes for military or commercial purposes is something of a responsibility and so you are used to being very straight-laces and by the book. Furthermore, you articulate yourself well and are capable of defining and defending your points of view on the forum. I respect all of these things.
However.....
I fail to see how you can in any way support "doing a wheelie" on any public road or where any innocent member of the public could be affected. Now I don't have a bike, nor have I ridden one. There is a very, very good reason for this; I know that my 'liberal' attitude would cause me to take an unnecessary risk at some point and I would kill myself or someone else. Despite being an absolute acceleration-freak, I do not allow myself to show any interest in bikes for that reason and that reason alone.
So, I'm the first to admit I cannot refute your claim that wheelies are safe and easy. My gut instincts tells me that they are not 'easy' and that you probably have to be a half decent rider to do one. I also suspect that even a decent rider trying one for the first time is bound to be taking a fairly high risk. Is there not a chance that he panics when the wheel comes up for the first time and does something wrong? I liken this to RC heli's - I spent ages comfortably 'hopping' and 'zooming' around on the training gear and many hours in the simulator. I knew exactly what to do when the helicopter properly took off. Despite this I, like most newbies, instantly binned my Blade 400 the moment it was more than 1ft off the ground. This was simply a direct result of the panic that ensues when you realize that it's a) actually happening and b) it's up to me. This effect can be witnessed the first time you slide a RWD car, first time you do a big trick on a snowboard/skateboard/whatever, and in many other walks of life.
Furthermore, simple logic dictates that riding on one wheel must be inherently less safe than ridding on two. Firstly, the contact area with the road is halved, secondly, steering inputs are reduced/removed and thirdly, the rider must surely have to concentrate on throttle moderation more than the road and conditions around him, etc.
What I'm driving at....in my usual long winded way.... is, "how can you (of all people) possibly belittle this behaviour on a bike when you are the first to criticise anyone who does anything that can be perceived as a "risk" - even if it's just cruising down a motorway at 85mph?"
I suspect the answer is that you are a biker and love biking. I suspect that you view the occasional risk in pursuit of your passion as acceptable. If that is the case, I ask that you respect that other people also like to take such 'risks' in pursuit of their own enjoyment or convenience
Firstly, I'd like to start by saying that I disagree with a lot of what you say on Scoobynet. Nevertheless, I respect your posts tremendously. The reason that we don't see eye to eye is likely a result of different personality types and, I suspect, age...I'm 31 fwiw.
My general impression of you is that you are the first to advocate the 'safety' line in any thread where risk is being discussed. You strongly opposed my view that driving with a hands free phone system wasn't an unacceptable safety risk. It seems, from that thread and many others of a similar nature, that you are the kind of person that always looks to take the lowest risk approach even at the expense of fun or convenience. This attitude is, I believe, why we probably disagree a fair bit on SN because I do have a more liberally approach to risk.
I expect your attitude is a result of your years of military service and aviation. I can imagine that flying planes for military or commercial purposes is something of a responsibility and so you are used to being very straight-laces and by the book. Furthermore, you articulate yourself well and are capable of defining and defending your points of view on the forum. I respect all of these things.
However.....
I fail to see how you can in any way support "doing a wheelie" on any public road or where any innocent member of the public could be affected. Now I don't have a bike, nor have I ridden one. There is a very, very good reason for this; I know that my 'liberal' attitude would cause me to take an unnecessary risk at some point and I would kill myself or someone else. Despite being an absolute acceleration-freak, I do not allow myself to show any interest in bikes for that reason and that reason alone.
So, I'm the first to admit I cannot refute your claim that wheelies are safe and easy. My gut instincts tells me that they are not 'easy' and that you probably have to be a half decent rider to do one. I also suspect that even a decent rider trying one for the first time is bound to be taking a fairly high risk. Is there not a chance that he panics when the wheel comes up for the first time and does something wrong? I liken this to RC heli's - I spent ages comfortably 'hopping' and 'zooming' around on the training gear and many hours in the simulator. I knew exactly what to do when the helicopter properly took off. Despite this I, like most newbies, instantly binned my Blade 400 the moment it was more than 1ft off the ground. This was simply a direct result of the panic that ensues when you realize that it's a) actually happening and b) it's up to me. This effect can be witnessed the first time you slide a RWD car, first time you do a big trick on a snowboard/skateboard/whatever, and in many other walks of life.
Furthermore, simple logic dictates that riding on one wheel must be inherently less safe than ridding on two. Firstly, the contact area with the road is halved, secondly, steering inputs are reduced/removed and thirdly, the rider must surely have to concentrate on throttle moderation more than the road and conditions around him, etc.
What I'm driving at....in my usual long winded way.... is, "how can you (of all people) possibly belittle this behaviour on a bike when you are the first to criticise anyone who does anything that can be perceived as a "risk" - even if it's just cruising down a motorway at 85mph?"
I suspect the answer is that you are a biker and love biking. I suspect that you view the occasional risk in pursuit of your passion as acceptable. If that is the case, I ask that you respect that other people also like to take such 'risks' in pursuit of their own enjoyment or convenience
21 December 2009, 12:38 PM
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Saxo Boy,
The crux is where you say that you have not ridden a 'bike and consequently you have not done a wheelie. You also did not read my post closely enough to see that I only admitted to doing small wheelies even while cornering, as much as anything because near vertical wheelies are alarming to other people and I would not advocate doing that on the public road anyway. Done in a way that others are not affected, a wheelie is not dangerous and your point about contact areas are not significant. A small lift while cornering means that you have excellent adhesion on the rear wheel to be able to do it anyway and I can assure you that the machine will continue to go round the corner as a one wheeler for the short time that that the front wheel is clear perfectly well. The bike "sits" into the corner quite safely. You will have to accept my experience in that respect. It is only too easy to find yourself doing a mini wheelie on a modern bike believe me if you are winding it up a bit. Near vertical wheelies or "Stoppies" on a public road are out of place and it was not my idea to encourage that. If it looked like that then I must have put it badly. If you want to do that, got to a disused airfield as we used to.
You have to have a two sided attitude to military flying. In the first place you accept that it is basically a dangerous pursuit and you learn to operate the machine from the normal point of view as safely as you can. However-if you want to be effective as an attacker then you have to be able to fly the aircraft in such a way that you can deliver a weapon without being shot down first. Low level attacks mean just that and you then have to learn the ability to fly very low using any rising ground to hide behind during a bombing run. The requirement is to be able to release the weapon before you get taken out by a missile etc. and sometimes being chased by a fighter at the same time! This is the other side of the game and you have to accept that and also be prepared to train to be able to do it. Wheelies on 'bikes are small beer compared with that side of the job. Luckily people don't get that bit wrong very often. When operating like that you are at least able to project forward to what is likely to happen in such a situation and act accordingly.
When I was wittling on about use of mobile phones I was trying to get across that they are distracting however they are used and in a car you are very close to the possible future accident. It takes only a short period of inattention to suddenly find you are heading in a totally wrong direction with a very short space of time available to avoid the trouble ahead. Relative speeds and distances are high and short when referred to cars on the road, taking your attention off the road even for a very short time is pushing it to say the least. You are very close in speed, distance, and time to the car coming in the opposite direction. I was advocating trying to avoid that situation as far as possible.
Yes I love my biking as you say, but I would not cause any undue risk to anyone else on the bike either
I hope that will help you to understand my way of thinking. As ever it is all a matter of degree and relative importance.
Les
The crux is where you say that you have not ridden a 'bike and consequently you have not done a wheelie. You also did not read my post closely enough to see that I only admitted to doing small wheelies even while cornering, as much as anything because near vertical wheelies are alarming to other people and I would not advocate doing that on the public road anyway. Done in a way that others are not affected, a wheelie is not dangerous and your point about contact areas are not significant. A small lift while cornering means that you have excellent adhesion on the rear wheel to be able to do it anyway and I can assure you that the machine will continue to go round the corner as a one wheeler for the short time that that the front wheel is clear perfectly well. The bike "sits" into the corner quite safely. You will have to accept my experience in that respect. It is only too easy to find yourself doing a mini wheelie on a modern bike believe me if you are winding it up a bit. Near vertical wheelies or "Stoppies" on a public road are out of place and it was not my idea to encourage that. If it looked like that then I must have put it badly. If you want to do that, got to a disused airfield as we used to.
You have to have a two sided attitude to military flying. In the first place you accept that it is basically a dangerous pursuit and you learn to operate the machine from the normal point of view as safely as you can. However-if you want to be effective as an attacker then you have to be able to fly the aircraft in such a way that you can deliver a weapon without being shot down first. Low level attacks mean just that and you then have to learn the ability to fly very low using any rising ground to hide behind during a bombing run. The requirement is to be able to release the weapon before you get taken out by a missile etc. and sometimes being chased by a fighter at the same time! This is the other side of the game and you have to accept that and also be prepared to train to be able to do it. Wheelies on 'bikes are small beer compared with that side of the job. Luckily people don't get that bit wrong very often. When operating like that you are at least able to project forward to what is likely to happen in such a situation and act accordingly.
When I was wittling on about use of mobile phones I was trying to get across that they are distracting however they are used and in a car you are very close to the possible future accident. It takes only a short period of inattention to suddenly find you are heading in a totally wrong direction with a very short space of time available to avoid the trouble ahead. Relative speeds and distances are high and short when referred to cars on the road, taking your attention off the road even for a very short time is pushing it to say the least. You are very close in speed, distance, and time to the car coming in the opposite direction. I was advocating trying to avoid that situation as far as possible.
Yes I love my biking as you say, but I would not cause any undue risk to anyone else on the bike either
I hope that will help you to understand my way of thinking. As ever it is all a matter of degree and relative importance.
Les
21 December 2009, 01:54 PM
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Near vertical wheelies or "Stoppies" on a public road are out of place and it was not my idea to encourage that
As I said I'm not placed to comment on riding techniques so I'll take your word that small wheelies are no different in terms of 'safety' to - for example - trailing the throttle a little into a bend in a car in order to tuck the front end in. That said, I'm having a hard time picturing in my head a bike cornering whilst pulling a small wheelie. Seems like it would just crash!
Last edited by LG John; 21 December 2009 at 04:09 PM.
