Trout

iTrader: (1)

Now who is completely out of touch with the real world!!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

How much of the wages of Santander, HSBC, Barclays, Goldmans, Morgan, Deutsche, etc, etc are you actually paying?

SunnySideUp

I don't actually get your point .... is the £75,000 too high or too low in your world?

SunnySideUp

Where the US goes, we will surely follow ....

"The White House "pay czar" has extended limits on the pay of executives at four US firms who were given government bailout money.

Under the restrictions, announced by Kenneth Feinberg, employees will not be able to earn more than $500,000 (£307,770) per year"

It's a start!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Which underlines your lack of connection to the real world.

jonc

Doesn't matter, the "retail" banks will all have "casino" bankers, RBS, Barclays, Lloyds, NatWest, BoS, HSBC etc, etc. and all deal in derivatives, bonds, equities, currency, credit, options, futures etc etc. Its not just the Merill Lynches, UBS, Goldmans, JP Morgns etc of this world.

Is £75k enough for all traders, including ones that continually brings in millions for their employer? If you brought in big business regularly, is a "well done" and a pat on the back good enough for you? If you were the employer, do you think that employee would stay knowing that even though he/she brings in huge business, they would will not get any pay rises or any bonus? As the employer what would you do to keep that person who continually brings in the millions from going to another employer with better rewards ?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Jon,

you are trying to describe the operation of the Free Market to an obstinate socialist. I don't think he will be able to understand what you have written

Trout

StickyMicky

Flicked through all of thi, and i am still none the wiser on what Restrictive Stock is

hodgy0_2

probably what it says on the tin

the stocks have certain restrictions regarding their liquidation --
time limits etc
amount that can be sold in any one time etc

Leslie

Whats a "reposte" anyway? cant find it anywhere, with or without an accent on the e.

Les

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I think it is an Olde Worlde 're-post'

SunnySideUp

Of course not, that would be the renumeration for the best trader. The also-rans would get much less.

Remember some salient points:-

1. They failed big time - what penalty did they suffer? NOWT!

2. They are owned by us, the Taxpayer - they receive what WE tell them they can!

3. They make NOTHING - just simply move a finite amount of money around, like pass the parcel ... simple (don't beleive it is anything but).

4. There is Quantitive Easing (printing money and pumping it into the system) - this, they claim, is profit!! Ha Ha Ha!! Simply more money to put in the parcel they pass around to each other.

They are not worth the cost of the leather seat they sit on ...........

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Pete,

over the years I have found you to be quite an amusing poster but your naivety is really taking the biscuit over this.

They paid 'NOWT'. So the tens of thousands of bankers who lost their jobs paid 'NOWT'.

'They are owned by us' a fraction of the UK banking sector has governmental interest and two banks are effectively nationalised. One of which doesn't really do any investment banking at all.

Oh, and £75k. That is a second year graduate salary at the Big Four and the Magic Circle. Cap banking salaries there and there will be no talent left of any kind in the banking sector.

SunnySideUp

Capping salaries worldwide for Bankers would put a stop to the overpayments.

Where would they go then? Can they make steel? NO!

Can they make Cars? NO!

Can they actually make anything? Not with those fairy liquid hands - NO!

They would take the cap or get a job in BurgerKing - simple.

This is, of course, only a dream for most decent hard working people in this country. Why should a Soldier die in Afghanistan for less than £20,000 a year .... and some jumped up money mover think that £20,000 wouldn't even carpet his lounge?

It stinks and it needs to be stopped - call that naivety if you wish, but I would sooner stand next to a soldier and demand his right to a decent living than I would stand beside a Banker and claim he was worth his millions.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

That's right they aren't making steel, or cars or any other dead end industries.

A lot of the redundant bankers have been investing their redundancy packages and setting up their own businesses and employee people and creating wealth.

jonc

Can you make steel? NO
Do you make cars? NO
Would you be able to get a job in Burger King? NO

I don't know why you're making such a fuss over bankers and steel workers since you believe there hasn't even been a recession.

Can you make millions for your employer? NO
Through investments, are you able to provide liquidity for loans and mortagages allowing millions of people to buy homes, cars, holidays etc? NO
Are you able provide cash and liquidity to thousands of businesses and keep then solvent? NO
Are you able to provide decent returns for thousands of savers? NO
Are you able to provide life and accident cover? NO
Would the industry you work in be able to support much of the UK ecomony and keep the wheels of industry turning? No.

Banks can't do this on savings alone. They have to trade on the markets to provide these services. You can't tar all traders with the same brush. Not all traders traded in CDS/CDOs. Some traders have brought in millions trading in other financial instruments. Not only that, banks also employ staff who provide other services, consultancy and advisory services, IPO's, merger and acquisitions, strategic financial management, fund management, research etc. that bring in revenue generated by fees. Cap their salary/bonuses, they'll just leave the banks and join or start up their own hedge fund.

Beside, if your derision of bankers is because of the current state of the economy, (much of which was caused by the sharp rise in defaults on sub prime mortgages in America), the small number of UK bankers aren't solely to blame. Some of the blame must be shouldered by the estate agents, the mortgage brokers, insurers who also traded in CDOs, the public who took on debts that they couldn't possibly manage, who lied on their mortgage applications, who reacted with a knee jerk and withdrew all their cash from the banks creating a run on the banks which resulted in one being nationalised and one going completely.

But most of all blame should also go to the FSA, setup by Gordon Brown (who incidentally can't make steel, or make cars or make anything tangible with his nice, soft, callus free hands, but is highly paid and expensed (their bonus?!!), was happy to send the poorly paid, poorly equipped soldiers you mentioned to fight in Afganistan), that failed to regulate the industry that it was setup to regulate.

Leslie

Ha Ha Trout, it was the acute accent on the e at the end which threw me, no such word in French that I can find.

Last time he used French he got it all wrong too, it even looked Spanish but that was also incorrect!

Les

Trout

iTrader: (1)

He might have meant riposte of course?!

SunnySideUp

Yes, next question ....

Yes, I have many thousands ££££'s in Investments used for loans and mortgages (note, this is my own money - bankers use other peoples!)

Not my job to do that - and, as I made clear, there is a finite amount of money in the system .... Bankers make NOTHING.

Imagine, 10 Oranges - there are just 10 Oranges in the world .... A Banker sells 9 Oranges for the price he paid for 10 and makes a profit and pays 1/2 Orange in Tax. 1/2 an Orange he keeps and takes a 1/4 for himself .... THERE ARE STILL ONLy 10 ORANGES!!

Pardon? That's Insurance not Banking .....

My industry supports many, many, many companies and thus the economy.

Next question?

jonc

Look, I'm not up for tit-for-tat match but what I will say is this. There are many industries that "make" nothing. Doesn't make them useless or worthless. Bankers/traders working in the finance sector may "make" nothing tangible, but what they do do allow their employers to provide assistance, assistance for businesses that would otherwise fail; provide returns on peoples investments (including your own!) and pensions; allow people to get on the property ladder, in fact anything you care to mention on the services that the banks provide, it's a service industry.

Bankers make mistakes, they're only human, but not all bankers and traders lost money and clearly you know little of the finance industry and how it works. At the end of the day, regardless of industry or business people, including yourself, are in the business of making money and profit. We just go about it in different ways.

SunnySideUp

You are quite correct ....... but my point is that they should not be paid the £millions that they are for making nothing .......

Why should a young solier die for less than £20,000 and Bankers mop up ££££££££££££££'s ??????

jonc

Then why should you be highly paid for what you do, when a soldier will make the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom they provide you and everyone else in this country for a measly £20k? Where does it stop?

SunnySideUp

I make something which means that many soldiers do NOT have to die ...... I can sleep - Bankers should be ashamed of their greed.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Being highly paid and making nothing tangible is far from unique to the banking sector.

So, other than being a well left of centre socialist vision where does it stop? Why should some people get paid more than others, I am curious?

SunnySideUp

We are not talking just getting paid a few thousand more than someone else ...... we are talking sickening, vomit inducing, immoral, unethical, blatant greed!!

We are talking obscene amounts of money, for making nothing!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

SSU - I don't really think you are in touch with a lot of careers around the city. There are plenty of places around London and beyond where seven figure sums are commonplace in earnings/bonus/profit share. And these are not banking or banking related jobs. There maybe some high peaks in banking but it is a long way from unique to the sector.

SunnySideUp

Well, trout, it's about time things changed - don't you agree?

If the single thing which comes out of this mess is the ending of excesses then it will have achieved something.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I guess that is where we disagree as I think that there are a lot of smart people who are generating a lot of wealth for all.

It is clear that sub-prime was a complete disaster for all involved - and that includes national governents, banks, regulators and treasuries as well as private banks and financial institutions.

It was also a disaster for all those businesses and homeowners who borrowed far more than they knew they could afford. No-one is innocent here.

However to tar all bankers for the choices and behaviour of the few is ludicrous.

Also your view of the zero sum game is amusing. If it was so simple there would be no Soros or Buffet there would only be an average poverty for all.

SunnySideUp

There is a finite amount of money floating around ... fact. There is no way Bankers can make more ...... so, they are getting paid millions for simply moving this money around.

Now that Governments have pumped more money into the system, Bankers are claiming that THEY are somehow MAKING this extra money and are therefore deserving of millions of pounds.

It's wrong, it's immoral and it's a sham.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

SSU - there is money in the economy. What makes the money move around the economy is the exchange for goods or services. So any extra profit anyone who is exchanging goods and services for is benefitting in the same way.

Why do you think only banks benefit from this? They are not making extra money - the level of QE is a fraction of the overall amount of money in the system and if you were paying attention the use of QE was primarily through technical means rather than simply putting more money into the system.

You view of the zero sum game is so naive as to be laughable. If it was so simple then I am sure that treasuries around the world would find it so easy to run their economies and control boom and bust. Indeed that is what Brown promised - but like you he was just as naive.