rolling road disaster
#31
in all fairness i think you have had a bad result from what normaly will go ahead with no issues but this is just me and being over causios on what ever i do, personaly i would not trust the jdm base map and evey car i have bought gets a quick visit to bob rawle and a tank of vpower before i go and has the car mapped for uk fuel, then i go on to a rolling road to see what it can do. i think you need to put it to a lesson learnt as said most make you sign a disclaimer and i am shocked you did not have to.
if i were you and as already mentioned i would either buy RICH RHH 2.5 block and have API fit it, for one i doubt it would cost much more than a built 2.0ltr and in my opinion the 2.5 is a much nicer lump.
or if you are after a new block be it 2.0 or 2,5 i would still give david a call at API, he and his team really know there stuff and you will not be sold something you do not need. top company, top service and you may even get a bacon roll thrown in.
best of luck.
steve
if i were you and as already mentioned i would either buy RICH RHH 2.5 block and have API fit it, for one i doubt it would cost much more than a built 2.0ltr and in my opinion the 2.5 is a much nicer lump.
or if you are after a new block be it 2.0 or 2,5 i would still give david a call at API, he and his team really know there stuff and you will not be sold something you do not need. top company, top service and you may even get a bacon roll thrown in.
best of luck.
steve
#32
Did it? Unless you know something about the OP's car that isn't on the thread it isn't directly specified whether it was running lean or rich. The direct quote is:
It's unclear from that which side of scale the mixture had gone off. If the quote re. "extra fuel" reads as read then it may have been rich. Although, in practice, a standard ECU won't "throw in extra fuel" once in open loop mode, so the comment as it reads is wrong.
Trio, do you have the dyno plots to hand, and so can tell us what the AFRs were? Would also, for academic purposes, be interested to see how much cooling airflow had been directed into the intercooler.
The run on the rolling road proved that a re-map was needed as the afr on the graph went off the scale, the ecu was retarding the timing and throwing in extra fuel to compensate for the knocking
Trio, do you have the dyno plots to hand, and so can tell us what the AFRs were? Would also, for academic purposes, be interested to see how much cooling airflow had been directed into the intercooler.
#33
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
splitpin yes i do have the readouts from the rolling road session, but for me making sense of them is not easy as i didnt really understand what was happening at the time and it was the first rolling road day i have been on.
the way i understood what the guy in charge was telling me was that the engine was lean and ecu detecting knock, retarding the timing as a result and using more fuel to combat the knock, (does this make sense?) il try and post a picture of the print out.
i presumed they would do basic checks prior to the session just to make sure the car was in a fit state to take the abuse, the car wasnt even on the rollers that long, 5mins at the most with one power run, i think they were having problems setting up the dyno to my car, something to do with my car having locked diff, it wasnt till half an hour later when i left the garage i realised my car was not as it was and had developed a rattle
wether the rolling road was the cause or the problem had been festering since i bought the car, il never know, all i can do now is fix it the best way i can, having no money at the mo doesnt help matters but it need fixing.
i rang dyno demons today but the boss who i spoke to yesterday was off ill, so i only spoke to the mechanic. he said the bottom end has a slight grumble and i might get away with just a freshen up of the engine as it is. i expect this means replace the defective parts, maybe a new crank maybe not depending on the damage, bearings, rings, gaskets, oils ect, he quoted in the region of £1500, i would like to do the rebuild as cheaply as possible but i want it done right firts time, my head is telling me this is probably not the best idea?
ive also spoke to one of my local subaru specialists Cotton competition near preston) this guy was very helpfull and explained to me what he could do for me, he will not do a freshen up of the engine, and a full rebuild is my best option with a price of £4-£4.5 grand all in, he explained that is a false economy to not do a full rebuild and its only asking for trouble futher down the line, i really need to speak to a few more engine builders before i make up my mind, api will be my next call tommorow, although i feel there to far away from were i live, id like the work done closer to home really.
thanks tristan
the way i understood what the guy in charge was telling me was that the engine was lean and ecu detecting knock, retarding the timing as a result and using more fuel to combat the knock, (does this make sense?) il try and post a picture of the print out.
i presumed they would do basic checks prior to the session just to make sure the car was in a fit state to take the abuse, the car wasnt even on the rollers that long, 5mins at the most with one power run, i think they were having problems setting up the dyno to my car, something to do with my car having locked diff, it wasnt till half an hour later when i left the garage i realised my car was not as it was and had developed a rattle
wether the rolling road was the cause or the problem had been festering since i bought the car, il never know, all i can do now is fix it the best way i can, having no money at the mo doesnt help matters but it need fixing.
i rang dyno demons today but the boss who i spoke to yesterday was off ill, so i only spoke to the mechanic. he said the bottom end has a slight grumble and i might get away with just a freshen up of the engine as it is. i expect this means replace the defective parts, maybe a new crank maybe not depending on the damage, bearings, rings, gaskets, oils ect, he quoted in the region of £1500, i would like to do the rebuild as cheaply as possible but i want it done right firts time, my head is telling me this is probably not the best idea?
ive also spoke to one of my local subaru specialists Cotton competition near preston) this guy was very helpfull and explained to me what he could do for me, he will not do a freshen up of the engine, and a full rebuild is my best option with a price of £4-£4.5 grand all in, he explained that is a false economy to not do a full rebuild and its only asking for trouble futher down the line, i really need to speak to a few more engine builders before i make up my mind, api will be my next call tommorow, although i feel there to far away from were i live, id like the work done closer to home really.
thanks tristan
#37
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moved to the Darkside
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaron
#40
Scooby Regular
#42
What type/age of car do you have? An STi 5 or 6 isn't it? If so, it seems on the basis of that print to be running far too rich - beyond the standard fuel map and, assuming it was being invoked, the high det fuel compensation (which has a relatively limited ability to add fuel).
the way i understood what the guy in charge was telling me was that the engine was lean and ecu detecting knock, retarding the timing as a result and using more fuel to combat the knock, (does this make sense?) il try and post a picture of the print out.
i presumed they would do basic checks prior to the session just to make sure the car was in a fit state to take the abuse,
i would like to do the rebuild as cheaply as possible but i want it done right firts time, my head is telling me this is probably not the best
idea?
idea?
Can you tell us a bit more about the setup of the car on the dyno btw? Was the bonnet open or closed, and was there a fan or (or air duct from one) applied directly to the intercooler?
Also do you know whether the engine was actually being monitored for knock at the time the runs were conducted, and if so, how? Bloke with headphones on or bloke looking at little electronic box?
Finally, what fuel did you have in when this happened?
It does say 42, although "AT" is listed as 14, so the workshop wasn't that warm. Hmmmm....
Last edited by Splitpin; 08 December 2009 at 12:41 AM.
#43
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
It could be:
- temp sensor just left loose in engine bay
- car has cone air filter in engine bay and temp sensor has been put in mouth.
- temp sensor is properly mounted after IC and reflects true(ish) charge temp.
Nick
#44
Early ECUs will not add any significant amount of fuel causing that rich running as a result of detonation. All the speculation about how it was running on the dyno is pointless, poor cooling on the dyno does not kill the engine bearings in one or two dyno pulls. But scoobynet was never a place to let truth stand in the way of a good arguement or witch hunt.
#45
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Butty the workshop was bloody freezing on the day with the large roller door open, and yes its a standard ecu, the only mods the car has are a panel filter and 3inch cat back exhaust, car is v5 type-r v-limited, i always use v power and would not use anything else.
When the car was running on the rollers they had a large fan infront of the car around 2-3meters away which kept kicking in and out, but the bonnet was shut, the guy in the car held a small hand held thing, cant say what it was, it seemed to be linked to the engine and computer using wires, i have been told they should have been using det cans to monitor the engine and aborted the session if anything was untoward.
I think i have decided that a fully forged rebuild is in order, dyno demons will use a sti crank, acl bearings,rossner pistons and eagle rods, new oil pump with a roger clark part fitted to make it even better (cant remember what that was called) and all other consumables, they will also map it on a safe map for running in, then the final map once run in, for a price of around £4500 i need to find out if this included the vat as i forgot to ask at the time.
i also spoke to david at api who was very helpfull and informative, he told me exactly wat he could do for me using similar parts to the above at a price of about £4100, this includes new crank and trimetal bearings, api branded rods(550bhp), new weisco pistons ,rings and rebore, overhauled heads and with new valves as nesessary, api rebuilt and improved oil pump, new cambelt gaskets and oil filter, lightened flywheel, ported headers, and recovery from where the car is at the moment, this seems a very good price and hassle free.
my other option is my local subaru specialist (cotton competition), now i mentioned api to him and he seemed to think there rebuilds were a cheap option, not using the very best parts and maybe re-using certain parts that he just would not do, cotton comp has given me a old invoice of a rebuild they did recently, this rebuild was for a 2.5 ltr engine, so some parts i would not be needing that were on this invoice.
theres included cosworth rods and pistons, sti crank and acl bearings, 11mm high output oil pump, modine oil cooler, apr head stud kit, FULL engine gasket set, head skim and bore, bronze valve guides, recut valve seats, new thermostat, cambelt, uprated fuel pump,all consumables, flywheel clutch and ballance, safe map for running in and final map all for a touch under
£4000
ive also have to have the car recovered to there workshop at an extra cost, add another £200, so really there around the same price although api include the lightened flywheel and ported manifold, now im scratching my head wondering whos going to be best to do the rebuild
which seems the best bet to you guys?
Thanks Tristan
When the car was running on the rollers they had a large fan infront of the car around 2-3meters away which kept kicking in and out, but the bonnet was shut, the guy in the car held a small hand held thing, cant say what it was, it seemed to be linked to the engine and computer using wires, i have been told they should have been using det cans to monitor the engine and aborted the session if anything was untoward.
I think i have decided that a fully forged rebuild is in order, dyno demons will use a sti crank, acl bearings,rossner pistons and eagle rods, new oil pump with a roger clark part fitted to make it even better (cant remember what that was called) and all other consumables, they will also map it on a safe map for running in, then the final map once run in, for a price of around £4500 i need to find out if this included the vat as i forgot to ask at the time.
i also spoke to david at api who was very helpfull and informative, he told me exactly wat he could do for me using similar parts to the above at a price of about £4100, this includes new crank and trimetal bearings, api branded rods(550bhp), new weisco pistons ,rings and rebore, overhauled heads and with new valves as nesessary, api rebuilt and improved oil pump, new cambelt gaskets and oil filter, lightened flywheel, ported headers, and recovery from where the car is at the moment, this seems a very good price and hassle free.
my other option is my local subaru specialist (cotton competition), now i mentioned api to him and he seemed to think there rebuilds were a cheap option, not using the very best parts and maybe re-using certain parts that he just would not do, cotton comp has given me a old invoice of a rebuild they did recently, this rebuild was for a 2.5 ltr engine, so some parts i would not be needing that were on this invoice.
theres included cosworth rods and pistons, sti crank and acl bearings, 11mm high output oil pump, modine oil cooler, apr head stud kit, FULL engine gasket set, head skim and bore, bronze valve guides, recut valve seats, new thermostat, cambelt, uprated fuel pump,all consumables, flywheel clutch and ballance, safe map for running in and final map all for a touch under
£4000
ive also have to have the car recovered to there workshop at an extra cost, add another £200, so really there around the same price although api include the lightened flywheel and ported manifold, now im scratching my head wondering whos going to be best to do the rebuild
which seems the best bet to you guys?
Thanks Tristan
#47
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Butty the workshop was bloody freezing on the day with the large roller door open, and yes its a standard ecu, the only mods the car has are a panel filter and 3inch cat back exhaust, car is v5 type-r v-limited, i always use v power and would not use anything else.
When the car was running on the rollers they had a large fan infront of the car around 2-3meters away which kept kicking in and out, but the bonnet was shut, the guy in the car held a small hand held thing, cant say what it was, it seemed to be linked to the engine and computer using wires, i have been told they should have been using det cans to monitor the engine and aborted the session if anything was untoward.
I think i have decided that a fully forged rebuild is in order, dyno demons will use a sti crank, acl bearings,rossner pistons and eagle rods, new oil pump with a roger clark part fitted to make it even better (cant remember what that was called) and all other consumables, they will also map it on a safe map for running in, then the final map once run in, for a price of around £4500 i need to find out if this included the vat as i forgot to ask at the time.
i also spoke to david at api who was very helpfull and informative, he told me exactly wat he could do for me using similar parts to the above at a price of about £4100, this includes new crank and trimetal bearings, api branded rods(550bhp), new weisco pistons ,rings and rebore, overhauled heads and with new valves as nesessary, api rebuilt and improved oil pump, new cambelt gaskets and oil filter, lightened flywheel, ported headers, and recovery from where the car is at the moment, this seems a very good price and hassle free.
my other option is my local subaru specialist (cotton competition), now i mentioned api to him and he seemed to think there rebuilds were a cheap option, not using the very best parts and maybe re-using certain parts that he just would not do, cotton comp has given me a old invoice of a rebuild they did recently, this rebuild was for a 2.5 ltr engine, so some parts i would not be needing that were on this invoice.
theres included cosworth rods and pistons, sti crank and acl bearings, 11mm high output oil pump, modine oil cooler, apr head stud kit, FULL engine gasket set, head skim and bore, bronze valve guides, recut valve seats, new thermostat, cambelt, uprated fuel pump,all consumables, flywheel clutch and ballance, safe map for running in and final map all for a touch under
£4000
ive also have to have the car recovered to there workshop at an extra cost, add another £200, so really there around the same price although api include the lightened flywheel and ported manifold, now im scratching my head wondering whos going to be best to do the rebuild
which seems the best bet to you guys?
Thanks Tristan
When the car was running on the rollers they had a large fan infront of the car around 2-3meters away which kept kicking in and out, but the bonnet was shut, the guy in the car held a small hand held thing, cant say what it was, it seemed to be linked to the engine and computer using wires, i have been told they should have been using det cans to monitor the engine and aborted the session if anything was untoward.
I think i have decided that a fully forged rebuild is in order, dyno demons will use a sti crank, acl bearings,rossner pistons and eagle rods, new oil pump with a roger clark part fitted to make it even better (cant remember what that was called) and all other consumables, they will also map it on a safe map for running in, then the final map once run in, for a price of around £4500 i need to find out if this included the vat as i forgot to ask at the time.
i also spoke to david at api who was very helpfull and informative, he told me exactly wat he could do for me using similar parts to the above at a price of about £4100, this includes new crank and trimetal bearings, api branded rods(550bhp), new weisco pistons ,rings and rebore, overhauled heads and with new valves as nesessary, api rebuilt and improved oil pump, new cambelt gaskets and oil filter, lightened flywheel, ported headers, and recovery from where the car is at the moment, this seems a very good price and hassle free.
my other option is my local subaru specialist (cotton competition), now i mentioned api to him and he seemed to think there rebuilds were a cheap option, not using the very best parts and maybe re-using certain parts that he just would not do, cotton comp has given me a old invoice of a rebuild they did recently, this rebuild was for a 2.5 ltr engine, so some parts i would not be needing that were on this invoice.
theres included cosworth rods and pistons, sti crank and acl bearings, 11mm high output oil pump, modine oil cooler, apr head stud kit, FULL engine gasket set, head skim and bore, bronze valve guides, recut valve seats, new thermostat, cambelt, uprated fuel pump,all consumables, flywheel clutch and ballance, safe map for running in and final map all for a touch under
£4000
ive also have to have the car recovered to there workshop at an extra cost, add another £200, so really there around the same price although api include the lightened flywheel and ported manifold, now im scratching my head wondering whos going to be best to do the rebuild
which seems the best bet to you guys?
Thanks Tristan
DO a search for feedback on here for both companies THEN make your mind up.
David doesn't cut corners or use less than optimal parts: he's one of the get the job done right, pay once, leave happy brigade!
#50
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no, no warranty was talked about at the time of purchase, and i was warned about the importer i was buying the car from( wrc imports based in bradford) to be honest i think the car, to the best of my knowledge was in good order,it never gave me any cause for concern up until this weekend, i was told by people on here that a remap was the first thing i should have done to make sure it was good to run on our 99ron fuel, i choose not to do this in the hope it would be fine, i didnt really want to spend £600 on something i couldnt physically see, i now realise this was a big mistake, a big lesson learned there i think.
both api and my local specialist seem to be offering a great package, both have given me lots of info and gone out of ther way to help, i dont doubt that both will give me a suberb forge engine, both using quality parts, i think its now just a matter of deciding which i trust to leave my car with.
thanks Tristan
both api and my local specialist seem to be offering a great package, both have given me lots of info and gone out of ther way to help, i dont doubt that both will give me a suberb forge engine, both using quality parts, i think its now just a matter of deciding which i trust to leave my car with.
thanks Tristan
#51
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The valleys butt :)
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You won't go far wrong with API mate. Had mine rebuilt in may 2007 and to this day I'm still happy with the service I received. I've done 30,000 Kms with no issues what so ever.
They came all the way to south wales to pick it up too!
If you pick your car up off them on a saturday then look forward to a brekky roll!
They came all the way to south wales to pick it up too!
If you pick your car up off them on a saturday then look forward to a brekky roll!
#52
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeh david seems a great bloke and very helpfull, with a no bull**** approach to the service he provides, i think my mind is made up now, im just not to happy about shelling out 4-5 grand that i really wasnt expecting, thinl i will be keeping this car for some time to come.
Thanks tristan
Thanks tristan
#53
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northants
Posts: 574
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My bottom end went a few months back, i managed to pick up a complete newage engine and gearbox off ebay for £1200 and it cost me £450 to have it fitted including a service etc. Buying a second hand engine is always risky, so far so good with mine i've done 1000 miles and it's good as gold (touch wood).
A rebuld will give you piece of mind but cost a lot more. I spoke to zen performance and he said bare minimum £2750 but they do a pukka job and strip it right down soa ll parts are checked thoroughly. Just depends how much money you want to spend i suppose
A rebuld will give you piece of mind but cost a lot more. I spoke to zen performance and he said bare minimum £2750 but they do a pukka job and strip it right down soa ll parts are checked thoroughly. Just depends how much money you want to spend i suppose
#54
Api 2.5 Short Block (bare)
Semi closed deck
Api rods
Mahle pistons
Arp bolt set
2.5 crank
Linered 2.5
This engine set up produced 455bhp 505lbft with graphs to prove it.
If you are interested then please pm me and I will give you more info.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post