I don't think it will turn into a bar fight John. Webbie may have some buddies, but he scorches our *sses no matter who if he finds we go over the top

Your point has been noted. But two wrongs still don't make a right (I never have made a comment about Tiff BTW: he is still a very amuzing presenter, and if you knew how sad car programs are over here, you'd understand how much I appreciate him as a presenter. As for his driving: we had lots of discussions on this very BBS about that, with about 50 % on each side.)

I personally prefer to keep quiet about his skills, because I'm one of those idiots that can't even do a 50 yard powerslide, let alone a 3 mile one

And sure, newbies have every right to make comments, no discussion about that I think ?

 

Way Hay - you lot dont half beat up on the newbie do you...... next you will be ganging up on trackday newbies.........oh wait a min......!


Martin

 

Thanks for your comments Theo.

 

OK chaps... You've made me get the webmaster account out!!! LOL
let's all take a chill pill here.

Firtsly..
Blue6. Welcome to ScoobyNet!! LOL

Now onto the topic..
Blue6's first post was completely accurate.

John's post that followed displayed his usual layalty to respected members of the scoobynet community and may have seemed a little agressive to Blue6. If you hang around long enough Blue6 you'll realise he didn't mean any direct offence, just being a little over-protective maybe!

In adition to this...

John, there REALLY WERE circustances that you are unaware of that made your comments re spectators *slightly* unfair.. but also...

Blue6, surely you MUST agree there is merit in what John says. Neither of you are wrong here...

John's comments re spectator safety are nothing short of bang one, but as Blue6 said, the situation was differnt to how you would imagine.

Can we just agree that we're all right, and we are in-fact arguing about stupid little details rather than the big issues.

Now kiss and make up!!!!

All the best

Simon

 

and you can stay out of this as well Theo!!!! you big trouble-maker!!!

 

I'll still get me coat!

Naughty Si LOL

I aint kissing Blue6, he's not my type.

 

I'm willing to call it quits. Can I take it we're all back in our prams now? As a point of interest,any of you guys/galls off to the 'Ring with Wheeltorque in April?

 

Phew

 

<spit> <pfoooa> <spit> <gargle>

I just kissed JF Si. That's what you wanted right ? RIGHT ?



<ball and chain firmly attached, so could not possibly comment any further>

 

Leave me alone Theo, i am not into Hairy women!

Is the wheeltorque event closed circuit and no Bikers? If it is i may be up for it in my quick car. If not i will do the ring in the Impreza with the rest of the guys.

 

JF, yes the Wheeltorque event is indeed a closed circuit with no bikes. Two days full circuit i.e. Grand Prix & Nordschleife.

 

Hmmm, i may just be up for that then.

I dont like the thought of sharing the track with the bikes after my last visit.

Thanks for the info.

 

well then !!!!!1 now the dust appears to have settled ????
1st...... Has everybody forgotten "the motorsport is dangerous" bit on entry tickets ?????
2nd......T N is a bloody good RACE driver, and is a well paid TV presenter being paid to make a mediocre tv show interesting to "joe Public".
3rd...... Everybody.... no matter how good they are makes mistakes at sometime or another.

may be a newbie but just had to put my tupence worth into this one...

TIM..

 

Just for info, I lived with a civil litigation lawyer who assures me that you cannot absolve yourself of your liabilities and the word 'motorsport is dangerous - enter at your own risk' isn't worth the ink they use to print it with. It simply trys to convince people that they can't take any action which is totally incorrect.

 

And thanks to "civil litigation lawyers", most of the fun things in life are being killed off.

No-one has any responsibilities, just rights - and money is the solution to everyone's problems.

(To keep on topic, Tiff's an entertaining driver, but isn't smooth enough in races and the Autocar Sideways Challenge is geared to reward drivers who don't go sideways! )

 

Tiff & the PI was this really the topic?
Is Tiff Loose?

Lift off oversteer. LOOS?
LOOS is a major consideration that gets big priority for run of the mill vehicle development.
Everyone wants to suppress the excesses in this area - except the rally driver.
Loos is the biggest cause of loss of control in Imprezas and Evos - especially when they have been modified.
These are simply the facts.
I have noticed on many occasions that our wetter the better customers are surprised when this happens and many have no answer until they have been coached on the subject. This is a key learning for Scooby drivers.

In respect of Mr Chester ( Blue 6.) I am not in the least surprised at his outburst.

I could tell a story about a bloke who attended one of our courses some time ago who brought his friend along - unannounced. During the course, the bloke received some rather strongly worded feedback as a result of his unsafe and irresponsible conduct on track from two independent sources on two different occasions.
I can only surmise that the bloke took this personally. This is a shame (for us) as we always try express feedback as feedback not criticism.
Subsequently, to my utter astonishment and contrary to a private verbal agreement, the bloke (with his friend at the wheel) were seen driving around the proving ground without any direct supervision, permission or training!

It was these actions that were largely if not wholly responsible for me dissuading spectators from attending our Wetter the Better courses.
The story goes that the bloke didn't even have the good manners to announce his departure.

We can all get things wrong and fail to communicate effectively.
It is very easy to criticise anyone’s behaviour and it is far, far more rewarding and difficult to look within, for that is where the real learning is to be found.

In respect of the Autocar Sideways challenge Mr Chester certainly did not attend so his comments are at best second hand.
I certainly did less well than I anticipated and said so at the time. I also apologised profusely to Autocar at the time for the error and thanked them graciously for their good natured and kind words in print.
I stand by what I have said, “at the end of the day I messed up”, who has never done that? - The bloke in our story?

Looking within we can all learn more than we care to admit. Mr Chester would be less offended if he looked, honestly to himself before criticising others.

I have to say that Mr Chester’s comments contrast with those of the rest of the postings on the subject. I thank you all for that.

In particular JF’s comments regarding safety are all entirely valid.

Mike PD is also making noises that we should all take heed of. The H&S situation in the UK is set to become draconian in the extreme. Organisers of events cannot be seen to tolerate gross breeches of misconduct - for some bloke will sue their *** off!


Don Palmer the Wetter the Better


[This message has been edited by Don Palmer (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

'scuse me folks - on what basis are people drawing conclusions that any one driver is 'better' than another? - perhaps there is some mighty rule book in print that contains the correct procedures? - ah!, I thought not!

Since driver ability is purely a subjective assessment and most of us males would never concede to being worse at it than the next guy, I think this is a silly argument.

I am also a bit concerned about those 'instructors' who may be tempted to think that they are an authority on this subject - please guys, there are no written laws on what is or isn't right as far as driving goes - hell there are people on the roads (legally) whose licenses were issued before you even had to pass a test !

I think mr TN has crashed enough times in front of the cameras for all to know that you wouldn't trust him with your car keys ;-)

and of course no-one is infallible and immune to the possibility of having an accident, no matter how frequently they are exposed to driving 'on the limit'.

to get back to the original topic - I presume that the folks editing the video/guy shooting the thing in the first place, thought it would be more entertaining to leave the 'spill' in the video - rather than
go through hundreds of takes waiting for Tiff to get it right :-)

I can remember one rally preview prog where a certain presenter was required to slide an EVO impressively around a slippy bend - when the shot was finally 'in the can', the grass was covered in marks from the previous attempts that went wrong - ho ho.

 

pwebb

Hi Mate

Of course there is no golden book, but...

There are many different aspects of driving, and all of them (as far as I know) can be measured...

- Road driving. Your ability is measured by things like the driving test, advanced driving courses, roadcraft, etc

- Race driving. Your ability is measured by your results. If you are good at it, you win.

- Car control. Your ability is measured by the question "Can you make the car do EXACTLY what you want" and if not, how close can you get (how accurate are you).

It is car control that I picked up on, and the fact of the matter is, Tiff is a) fighting with the wheel all the time, and b) regularly spins. This means he is a) not very accurate, and b) not very good at making the car do what he wants (unless he wants to spin).

I am always the first to support Tiff in terms of his entertainment value and presentation skills (he has revolutionised the RAC coverage IMHO - and is by far the most enjoyable top gear presenter (also IMHO)) so it is nothing personal. He is also a pretty decent driver, by normal stadards, it is just when he is heralded as a god that it makes me feel like speaking up.

Cheers

Simon

 

All due respect to all parties involved, I have to find myself siding with Blue6.
For someone who has put forward their argument as thoughtfully and articulately as he has, I feel you have been rather harsh in your defence. He has made some very valid points.

I have enjoyed a bottle of wine with Mr P in his own home and I don’t think his integrity is at all in question. However, facts are facts and many people were witness to the results of the Autocar test.

Regardless, I think it is a bit unfair to welcome criticism to someone I admire so much (Tiff Needell) whilst we are biased so much to others.

We are all entitled to our opinions, as long as it is never derogatory or inflammatory, may both men keep up their excellent contributions to British motoring!

 

Just to stick my oar in

1) Road driving. Tiff has not crashed on the road.

2) Tiff has a proven record in driving. He may not be the best in the world, but if anyone on here had a comparable driving record, they would be "heralded as a god [sic]".

3) Car control. Tiff is doing what the director wants in cars that he doesn't own. He is insured. He admits he is like a kid when it comes to fooling around in cars (re-read no 1 for some context on this comment).
People are willing to let him out in some of the most exclusive machinery available (current F1 cars, McLaren F1 etc etc).

I don't know the chap, I only know what I see, and I think it is a poor show to have a go at *anyone* on a public BBS (Mr Prescott excepted ).
I have had the pleasure of meeting Don, and hold him in the same high regard.

Really, what are we trying to achieve here?

KF.

 

Going back to the original topic: I'd be willing to wager that in the majority of lift off oversteer moments on the roads in Imprezas, the car would have made it round if the driver had stayed on the throttle. I haven't been driving them that long, but from my personal experience it can sometimes seem like you might be in trouble when in fact the car is coping ok with the situation. One thing I've found helpful is, when I approach any bend, just mentally say to myself "Don't lift off". Makes it much easier to do the right thing if you plan it ahead IMO.

P.S. Anyone know where to get this P1 video?

 

If you REALLY want to learn to train your brain into the "Dont lift off mid corner" mantra go rally a Hillman Imp (or an old 911 ). LOL

 

John Prescott? Now dont get ME started!

 

LOL - I'm afraid I might die before I learned the lesson though John!

 

Hi KF

As I said... it is only "3) car control" that I would dissagree with the "god" status on.

"3) Car control. Tiff is doing what the director wants...."

Do you know this to be the case? I don't want to go too deep into this as it would be genuinely insulting for Tiff, and this is not something I want to do (like I say, I have no problem with *him*, just the *god* status).

Look... nobody is saying he's useless... he is obviously a good driver, but his car control is far far far from god status material. That is all I'm saying, and I have nothing to gain by saying it.

I am not trying to be derogatory towards Tiff... I am not saying he's crap, etc... merely that he is not a *god* of car control. Nothing more.

best regards

Simon

[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

SDB,
Don't take my response as a challenge. It was merely stating some things that may change peoples perception of Tiff.

The comment was directed at those that feel the need to vilify <B>any</B> individual. It is unproductive and unnecessary.

Don, said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Looking within we can all learn more than we care to admit. Mr Chester would be less offended if he looked, honestly to himself before criticising others.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KF.

 

Don Palmer, the reason that I elected to leave your Wetter the Better course was that whilst driving the circuit I knocked one of the water cannon covers off, which from other people I understand has occured before.

You then proceeded to 'F' and blind at me in a wholly unwarranted onslaught, following which I asked you to refrain from using such profanity as it caused me offence. You then asked me to walk in the mud to recover said cover.
Due to my absolute disgust with your attitute I elected to leave the venue with my friend at the wheel.

I am not surprised by your comments in an attempt to divert from the original point in question, it confirms my opinion of you.

 

Interesting.

On the wet handling course, there is a dip off circuit, which often fills with water.
Don thought that it was 4 foot deep.

I (mumble mumble breaking point mumble) found out that it was in fact more like 6 inches(ish). Despite heading towards it at a manly (and potentially extremely painful 40mph), was only ever calmly told by Don to "steer left... more.... more...". The pitch of his voice changed, but he never swore, and was never anything other than professional.

Methinks there may be something else to be said here...

BTW. If you hadn't said anything Blue6, I wouldn't have known that it was you Don was refering to.

KF.

[This message has been edited by KF (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KF:
<B>BTW. If you hadn't said anything Blue6, I wouldn't have known that it was you Don was refering to.

KF.

[/quote]


Me neither.

It's a shame this otherwise interesting thread is degenerating into a slagging match.

Personally, I'm not in the least bit interested in who swore at who etc.

Rich

 

You will all be as pleased as me to know that John and I have agreed to start again.
We both learned a lot from the conversation we just had on the phone.

I wish to claim the award for the best “kiss and make up” on the net this month.

I am delighted to be able to do this since the situation has stuck in my craw for far too long – it stuck out because I failed to resolve the situation on my own – Scooby did it for me too!

Thanks guys for all the support and thanks to John for the feedback.

Just to keep to the original point….


I too think that Tiff can drive – he doesn’t always manage to show it in the most consistent manner and needs a lesson or two in the values of other people’s property – he does very well on skin thickness and exceptionally well on entertainment - which is the business he’s in.

Don Palmer Wetter the better – who’s coming to Bedford for the Bigger the Better then?