finalzero

From what I know, that's the belief a law abiding muslim is supposed to follow and is actually discussed in the religious hadiths (commentry books quoting statements from prophet Muhammed) so you are actually bang on with that line, just a shame no one actually bothers to take notice.

Leslie

As I keep saying, its not so much the religion which is at fault but those who misuse it. Chase them instead!

Les

Martin2005

So if these words were uttered by Adolf Hitler the source would still be irrellevant??
The fact that it a lie is irrelevant? The fact that it's so obviously hypocritical is irrelevant (ask the average Aboriginal how they feel about this supposed statement/speech by the Aussie PM)?

This viral email was a very deliberate attempt at stirring up trouble, and sure if you couch it in somewhat acceptable language that doesn't change the motives behind it.

Really really not a good example to use.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yes, it would be, if slightly out of character.

Getting caught up with whether this was actually uttered by the source its attributed to is missing the bigger point. The sentiment was entirely reasonable. If a organisation such as the BNP have deliberately mis-attributed something they devised to an authority figure to give it more credence then, yes, that is indeed wrong, BUT it doesn't change the fact that the sentiment is reasonable and corresponds to a moderate and rational viewpoint held, I'd argue, by people of all faiths worldwide.

It is perfectly possible to have a common position with someone who's views on many other issues you would find abhorrent. I happen to agree with the sentiment that we should live in peaceful harmony with people of different religions, but that they should, first and foremost, respect the laws of the country they inhabit or accept that the the country in question may not be for them. We've just heard from FinalZero that this is the position advocated in religious hadiths for Muslims.

It is myopic and an oversimplification to say that just because a reasonable sentiment has been expressed by a normally dubious/questionable/reprehensible source that it tarnishes the viewpoint. It is not solely an issue of where an idea/statement comes from, it is the content of the viewpoint and how it is subsequently taken up and used that matters more. Are we to say that anything that originates from the BNP is to be disregarded out of hand? Or that anyone who sites anything that originates from the BNP invariably holds all their views? Are we to tell Muslims that portions of the religious hadiths should be disregarded on the basis they happen to correspond with a BNP view, or tel the BNP they they can't be reasonable due to the crossover.

Ns04

The Zohan

spot on, good god every time you mention 'live by our rules and our customs or go' some soft brained leftie calls you a fascist, compare ytyou to hitler and the start of nazisim and plays the all now to familiar racist/fascist card to shut you up!
It is not being a fascist at all wanting to protect your values, your way of life is common sense. I find it hard to imagine wanting to go to another country which i stand at odds with their laws, their traditions and customs and wanting to settle there. Unless i wanted to change it all maybe

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Exactly, and the irony is that the very people who some have argued would find such a viewpoint offensive (in this case, regular Muslims) apparently have texts of religious guidance that advocate pretty much exactly the same viewpoint i.e. adhere to your religion, respect other religions and don't expect that your religious values make you exempt, or take precedence from the laws of the land!

This is what we need to hear more of to combat the misconceptions and misinformation that the likes of the BNP would normally want to exploit to incite intolerance, distrust and hatred!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

PS I get too involved in these debates, I should really just get back to prompting Tam into posting bewbies!

Luan Pra bang

The old testament the start of the koran and the Torah are all basically the same book.

Petem95

All crappy works of fiction tho

Luan Pra bang

I like to think of it as historic fiction like the davinci code, some true facts tied together with a ridiculous story.

dlatch

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer"

UK should be converted to atheism and all believers to be expelled immediatley
then and only then can we reinstate common sense

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

As long as they follow Christian values, the lack of morality in this country is half the reason it is in the state it is now.

bluenosewrx

iTrader: (2)

At least we agree on something,lol

Mac

Leslie

It is a fact that when this was a largely Christian country, people were far more law abiding, less selfish or likely to be rip off merchants, and people used to think of others rather than just themselves. Now that there is so much more secularism. look at what things are like now!

Some the very worst situations we have seen in history is that of religious persecution. Advocating that is a very immature or selfish reaction and puts you in the same league as some very evil dictators.

Les

Alan C

There's a BIG difference between a lack or taught morals, ethics and right and wrong for which I have agreed the bible can provide in part, to potentially asserting that Atheistic secularism is to blame (I know you didn't say that out loud)... Secularism is politically biased towards separating the state from religion. Atheism is a natural by-product or function of that.

In other words a lack of belief in a God doesn't automatically mean your void of morals or ethics and therefore to blame for the mess we're in (which I agree is pretty bad...).

There's enough sexually repressed or devout religious people about willing to punish both belief & non-belief to more than redress the balance regarding poor ethics and morals.....

Leslie

Why has this country descended to its present state of moral degradation Alan?

Les

Alan C

I do supect you're blaming the lack of belief in God to the moral decay we see today, so my answer will be tempered along those lines.

I liken it to those right wing preachers who point to the fact that because I don't believe in God, then I'm going to go around murdering, pillaging and eating babies. But I really should be asking why do you think this is the case? Why am I not murdering people as we speak?

Humans don't get our innate morals from the Bible... they are 'programmed' into us.. Question for you... What did humans do before the Bible came along?

They simply lived their lives in an evolutionary manner. Murder and bad things still happened, as they do today, but only to those people with 'scrambled' mental dispositions and disconnections in the brain where right and wrong or care for you fellow man are simply 'short circuits'. Love for your family and children is innate... that doesn't need teaching, especially by some deity that pronounces child killing, pestilence, death and destruction upon innocents...in summary, your morality is a natural instinct.

Now, the bible was taught, fairly strictly for many years and I've always agreed that this strict discipline ensures good community behaviour. Military life isn't borne on religion, but service men and women are some of the most upstanding and committed people you'd wish to meet (as I'm sure you know!)... their taught discipline is the control factor here.. i.e the fear of a good bollocking from the SWO and not God's punishment or the punishment from your religious teacher.

The decline of morals is, in some small way, connected to the decline in religious discipline...I also feel it's associated with the decline in other discipline. I'll cite the rise in political correctness and the removal of discipline powers from the Police and even general people on the street. I'm sure you're my age or a close generation where we 'feared' and respected teachers, the police and even the shop keeper... their ability to dole out some immediate justice meant I never pissed of the sweet shop keeper, my teachers or God Forbid, a copper... If I did.. my parents would punish me.. not sue them.

Today, these people fear for both their safety and livelihoods from being sued if they so much as clip someone around the ear.... that type of justice never did me (or you most likely) any harm.

You simply had religious parents, religious family members or the need to add the religious aspect of discipline to your life to keep you on the straight and narrow.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

How about this to get started with

- Decline of the family unit and associated declines in parenting - unwanted kids becoming parents of unwanted kids (primary culprit, I'd say)
- Woefully out of date welfare system which contributes to the above
- Public services such as education, social care and criminal justice system overburdened with beaucracy, and PC
- Promotion of **** poor role models and the "celebrity" culture

Ns04

Luan Pra bang

I would argue that the idea of inate programed morals is completely wrong, people are not born civilsed and with morals, they are taught by society and there is a wealth of scientific and academic research to back this up. Thats why different societys have such different moral guidelines and why some uncivilised tribal communities think its ok to eat your enemy.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yes, indeed, as a Psychologist, I can say that morals most definitely aren't pre-programmed and that it's definitely not ok to eat your enemies.
.
.
.
.
At least, not raw!

The Zohan

Nail hit on head matey!

Alan C

By 'programmed', I mean, like a computer. Taught. I never said pre-programmed as in being born with morals.

Religion and the various texts 'programmes' the believer into believing or doing something moral, immoral or amoral. Religion is inherited, learnt and forcibly indoctrinated into children from parents, close family etc... Born in Saudi? Guess what religion you're going to be. Born to God fearing Christians in Alabama? Guess what religion you're going to be.

I was born to free thinking parents who didn't give a rats *** about religion. They never really had any take or comment on it. It was never part of our family life; Simple good values... that's right son.. well done..praise praise..... that's wrong son.. lecture....punishment...

And look at me! I haven't thought about rioting, mugging or stealing something for a good 4 hours now....

As an atheist.. I have excellent empathy with my fellow Humans...

So, be very careful when confusing people who murder and who don't give a rats *** about or care in a god to those who murder solely because they don't believe in god.

Leslie

Yes I agree with all that. Its an indication of what has happened and the way of thinking of so many these days.

My original question was asking why that thinking has changed and why this country has descended into such a decline of moral values.

My point is that Christian ideals taught people to live a good honest life
and not to be selfish, thinking of others if anything before themselves.

Polite behaviour and a willingness to help others go a very long way to maintaining a strong caring society and the loss of all that these days is very revealing as one has to agree.

The old Christian society had a high sense of moral behaviour for altruistic reasons and that was no bad thing.

Les

Alan C

I don't think anyone can disagree with that. The most severest of Christian sects will have a high sense of morals. The crusades would have had a high sense of morals when embarking on their colonisation.

It's the 'application' of the framework for those morals that can be questioned and indeed confronted.

One example is the Plymouth Brethren. 3 devout Christians who felt that the professing church in 1827 wasn't what they felt it should be. The nature of God wasn't being honoured in the right way. Now a global movement we can sit here and question and even challenge their particular interpretation of the word of god and their moral and ethical behavioural framework...

The activities below are forbidden for members of the Taylorite Exclusive Brethren because they are too worldly:

• watching television
• listening to the radio
• visiting places of entertainment
• reading newspapers
• reading fiction
• using computers and the internet (they believe that these are being used by 'the man of sin' referred to in the Book of Revelation)
• using mobile phones - or any other device that uses radio waves
• owning pets (these rules have been relaxed and some members are now said to own pets)
• remarrying after divorce, even if they are the innocent party
• taking out life assurance
• going to university (this exposes young Brethren to morally unhelpful influences)
• standing for political office
• voting in elections
• bearing arms (though Brethren do serve in the non-combatant corps of the armed forces in times of war)
• visit other churches
• join any other religious organisation
• join a trade union
• join a professional organisation (this excludes members from professions such as medicine and pharmacy)
• join any group that includes people outside the Exclusive Brethren
• live in the same building, including apartments and semi-detached houses, as outsiders (this means that members can't share a house with a spouse or with children if the spouse or child has been expelled from the Exclusive Brethren)
• share a driveway with an outsider
• share private drainage facilities
• marry outside the Exclusive Brethren

Just a few of the requirements: On one hand I'm sure their morals and ethics are of the highest order... but on the other? One could argue that list represents child abuse of those children being born and indoctrinated (there is no other word) into that system.

We may agree that the lack of TV may be a positive thing... but I'd struggle to find someone (on here anyway) that this list is a great moral and ethical guide.

Of course this is wide ranging and their are many other sects out there... some more extreme than the other.

So, Les, religion can and does give some guidance, but at a great cost in some cases.

Leslie

Yes I agree with you as far as those examples you quote Alan. It certainly goes way way over the top.

It is only too possible for some who are associated with one or other of the religions, Christian or otherwise to become so introspective about the whole thing that you could hardly move out of the house!

It has been known that even priests have gone that way even though the religion never required such behaviour, and they were known as being subject to "scruples". They had to go off on a course to de-sensitise them.

All that was very much in the minority however, and in general the whole thing was treated with common sense as it should be, and Christianity did at least provide people with a decent set of ideals to attempt to live up to. Other religions would also do just the same.

It is a shame and also very frightening to see what is happening in some instances in the name of religion which is being initiated by fundamentalists largely for their own seperate purposes. I fully agree that we should be alive to that and be ready to defend our country and its traditions from ultimate destruction.

My basic question however is, what can be done these days to restore those ideals and set of values which made this country great and also a wonderful place to live?

Les

Alan C

Restore some form of discipline and respect for authority.

The Police are prime examples of a PC society gone mad. Their powers have been eroded to the point of tying their hands behind their backs. We need more Police on the streets focussing on what matters rather than 'easy targets' because they need to keep their figures up. More Police with powers that enable them to ensure scum who know full well their rights and the legal limits get the justice decent respectable want.

People in the street can't stand up to thugs, criminals and reprobates without fear of being stabbed or taken to court. I'm not asking for a vigilante state, just someway of getting the power back to normal hard working and decent folk.

Fear of getting my ear clipped by a copper or even a shopkeeper and then another clip from my dad meant I stayed on the straight and narrow.

After serving 22 years in the RAF, I've seen enough people come through the ranks.... I've seen enough 'bad lads army' and spoken to enough people who think that some form of military service for those real problem kids would also be a help in ensuring and educating respect for people and property.

Sweeping statements certainly. But a mixture of these in various controlled doses and circumstance can't hurt... can it?

Leslie

I agree with all of that Alan, and I spent even longer than you in the "Mob" seeing what you describe and feeling the same way.

I think however that the bad behaviour we see goes back further to the way so many children lack any kind of guidance or good example in many ways from their parents. There is also another failing too, in that many let their children do just what they want thinking that is good for their development and also give them all the toys in creation and pocket money in abundance thinking that will encourage the children to love them. It actually encourages a lowering of respect for the parents. The children grow up with no understanding of the discipline needed in a normal society and have no thought or respect for others.

The family is fast disappearing and if allowed to continue that will eventually lead to the break up of all we hold good.

None of all this is helped by the present day attitude of the authorities who do so little to protect the public.

Les

GC8WRX

These guys are ******* idiots who need to be in a cave somewhere in the middle of a desert!

WTF is going on in your mind if thats how you think, these are the sort of ******** whos kids get bullied everyday, and are very unhappy, but the nuts in charge of the family think they can sing problems away ala "about a boy".

Religion, ALL religion is fcuked up. Its for weak minded people who need something to believe in, and something to justify their crappy childhood full of obscure rules with no place in modern society!

They are all brain dead IMO!

Turbohot

So, non-religious, brain-awake people can justify their happy childhood with no rules/clear rules, and a right place in modern society? Not sure about that TBH Not every religious person faces a crappy childhood with obscure rules, nor does every non-religious person grow as a free child either.

Its good to think that bringing back order and authority is the answer. But it has to be remembered that invisible images worked a treat to implement that, as the living mankind breed members have very little faith in one another to bring about discipline and respect any authority . They required a father figure to pray to, a father figure with superhuman qualities above everyone. Figment of their imagination, or a supernatural unexplained experience; whatever it is, It worked well for hundreds of years! Yes, it was/is used as a tool for destruction too, we all know that. Where there is a lack of faith (it doesn't have to be in a man with white beard, or in a blue guy with a snake round his neck), disorder is clearly visible. Where people are still believing in humanity and common sense (if not Jesus, Allah or Krishna etc.), some order, resect and positive regard for other humans exist. Where people have totally shunned the "belief" theory, disorder keeps growing day by day.

A good person doesn't have to be worshipping (or do ten sit-ups a day) to a man with white beard or a snake etc. But they have to have regard to humanity in order to be a good person. There isn't a presence of a godly figure in abiding by humanity principles, but some poet may name those principles collectively, say, as some superhuman Dorothy with toothbrush in her hand. Now, that could become a fixed image to remind of that "humanity" to some, can't it? Some may say it is a mental disorder to personify a cluster of humanitarian positive qualities. Some may think its a good idea. So, There is not really a problem with God imagery and God worshippers.

People quiz about God's existence where there is a God inside every living body. It is shown when you perform a right action. There is a demon inside everybody too. It is shown when you perform a wrong action.

BTW, there is a possibilty of life out there, don't rule it out. SO, it is possible that there could be a stronger or weaker species than us living on some unknown planet that does effect our lives. Not long ago NASA have sent a rocket up there to check it out>

Nasa Space Mission Begins: Rocket Carrying Kepler Telescope To Search For New Earths Blasts Off | World News | Sky News


The day we identify the "stronger-that-us" lot, and if we have to bend forward in their honour, we may name them as Gods for their power and charisma, who knows. So don't be so vain thinking that all people with unexplained or God related experiences are weird, braindead or on drugs. I'd wait until the rocket brings down the results

Om Dorothy with Toothbrushaaaah Namahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Alan C

I'd like to see your 'clearly visible' proof around this comment. Please don't confuse a secular state operating with a dysfunctional or totalitarian political system and use that as an example. I'd like to see a clear example where a purely secular society has issues around their non-belief and not un-related political problems (I would use this in a religious context also where the political system is separate).

What you will find is that Sweden and Denmark are at the top of the secular non-belief list, with Australia and NZ not far behind. Australia has certainly had Atheist or Agnostic PM's in the past. Swedes are usually baptised at birth, but like here in the UK.. it's usually tradition.

They may all have issues and certainly aren't paradises, but you'll find these countries to be some of safest and nicest places to live. The influx of immigrants from EVERYWHERE into Aus & NZ is testament to that... I think we can all relate to and in some ways wish the Australian mentality regarding their immigration laws was in place here!